white plugs bluing pipes

:twisted: hello just picked up a 1982 xj1100j gone through as much as i k now , changed oil and filter new plugs pulled and cleaned carbs runs good but while trying to stay steady speed maintain 35 bike seems to chug and i need to drop a gear to raise rpms, pulled olugs all 4 white and bluing pipes motor seems excessively hot as well. any in put would be appreciated.

 

going through similar issues myself. it's either carbs or fuel delivery.

since it's all 4 plugs, i'd look into fuel delivery first (i'm thinking i need to replace my fuel filter with a better one - hopefully get sneak away from work to try that today). disconnect the fuel line and verify that you have good flow (through the fuel filter if you have one installed).

if that's not it, you probably need a good carb cleaning.

try taking it for a ride and keeping RPMs low - below 3,000 and see if your plugs darken up or if they are still all white.

 

thanks no filter but there are screens in the shut offs i may take them apart and clean. i also had the tank off and ran the gas out to see flow, looked ok but one side seemed slower, ill take that ride and let you know thanks again

 

where i was talking about this before

well, things may be looking up. rode to work today and checked my plugs and they were all white.

took a short ride around the plant keeping RPMs under 3,000 and they picked up some color.

put in a new clear, cone shaped filter and took another short (RPMs <3k) ride around the plant, and they seemed to pick up some more color.

there isn't enough straightaway to really check it out, but i left it in first and rode it at a pretty steady 5k until i ran out of asphalt and checked the plugs and they didn't seem to have lost any color.

gonna do another check on my way home and see what's up.

 

awesome let me know thanks again

 

checked my plugs on the way home and they were turning white again.

so i had a late night in the barn.

i pulled the carbs and, although the emulsion tubes were all fine, #2 and #3 air-boots (the boots between the airbox and the carbs) were not installed quite right, certainly allowing some air to be sucked in.

i also noticed #2 float was set low (or high? - whichever means less fuel in the bowl). since my bowl drain screws are stuck (and i mean STUCK) i eyeballed them all to match #3 since that plug has been showing the best color.

riding to work again today with my fingers crossed (metaphorically, of course)

UPDATE: no riding to work for me today. started the bike up last night (just to make sure it would start) and it ran ok, but i guess i should've idled it longer than a couple seconds. this morning it started up great, but idled progressively worse and worse until i could no longer get it started. giving throttle would bog down the engine, and full choke would cause the engine to race up to 2-3k (something it hasn't done since i got my idle adjusted right).

i'm *hoping* that i fouled some plugs because i had my pilot screws turned out way too far (4 1/2 to 5 turns) trying to compensate for low floats and air leaks, and now that those are fixed, i'm running too rich. it certainly acted like it was running rich/flooding. i just hope i don't have to pull the carbs *again* and adjust the floats.

why do 12 hour shifts have to be so long??

 

Invest in some Kroil http://www.kanolabs.com/google/ you need to get those float bowl drain screws unstuck.

The only TRUE way to check float levels is by measuring where the level actually is when the float turns off the flow; the only way to do that is the "clear tube method" which needs the drains.

 

yeah i know i know. 'cept i live in BFE - i tried PB blaster with no luck. i live in BFE so nobody has anything in stock, ever. it's a geographical oddity - 2 weeks from everywhere.

if the pilot screws aren't the culprit, i'm taking the carbs off and suffering with no riding until they're church of clean clean.

i'm really hoping that, since #3 plug has looked great through this whole fiasco, that setting the other floats to match #3 will work. #2 (the leanest) was the lowest float, #1 and #4 were slightly better were also slightly lower than #3.

 

The "Kroil" link I posted is for 2 cans for $12 FREE SHIPPING, I got mine 3 days after I ordered it.

Kroil works where PB Blaster doesn't, trust me. Do a forum search for Kroil if you need testimonials.

Visually setting floats is only "ballpark" at best, each individual valve's slight differences make fluid level checking necessary.

 

good news: couldn't ride yesterday cuz i forgot to re-connect the vacuum line and i "ran out of gas"

bad news: still running lean.

what does it mean if your plug is tan on one side and white on the other?

 

anyone have thoughts on whether an exhaust valve being on the low side of in spec (tight) would cause a cylinder to run lean?

 

it might make it appear to be lean.

If you take any of the following "out of order" you're not going to make any progress:

1. Valves in spec; not "close" or tight; IN SPEC.
2. Check/adjust float levels if necessary. WITH FLUID.
3. Vacuum sync. Will not come out right if #1 wasn't done first.
4. Tweak mixture screws. A waste of effort if #1, #2 and #3 not done first.

 

all of my valves are in spec. if memory serves the spec for exhaust valves is .006" - .008" - assuming those are the correct numbers, then my exhaust valves are #1-.008, #2-.006, #3-.008, #4-.008 - i'm trying to decide if it's just a coincidence that #2 runs the most lean. i am ordering a valve cover gasket and donuts from len and will re-checking and correcting all my valves but i'm trying to LEARN something here.

 

Let me explain something about the imperial (inch) valve clearance specs:
They're a basic reference, and given to aid people who don't have access to metric gauges.

The spec for exhaust valve clearances is .16mm-.20mm.

A valve measuring .006" which is actually .152mm is out of spec, on the tight side.

Valve clearances have a major effect on trying to balance and tune these motors. I don't think it's a coincidence at all; I also don't think you'll be able to get the carbs properly adjusted unless all the above steps have been followed in order.

A "tight" valve will throw that cylinder off; it might NOT be "too lean" once the valves are correct, but it's hard to say.

Your #2 float could be set too low too.

 

bigfitz - i appreciate your patience - i'm trying to learn about how all this stuff is interrelated - so maybe down the line, i can look at my plugs and know if it's valves, carbs, or synch. etc.

my reasoning is that a tight exhaust valve opens earlier and closes later than a valve that is in spec. opening early (i would think) shouldn't matter much, since you're only trying to expell exhaust. staying open too long, however, might mean that the piston starts it's down-stroke while the valve is open, sucking in some exhaust and not pulling as strong of a vacuum from the intake valve which, i *think* could be what's going on here.

(of course, i'm neglecting to mention the perils of tight valve clearances and burning valves here).

what i'm not sure about is how long (maybe in terms of degrees on the crank?) is the exhaust valve supposed to be closed before the piston starts it's downstroke - that'd tell me (i think) whether the clearance is causing less vacuum draw.

also, i needed a break from thinking about carbs.

making due with the tools available in this podunk town i live in stick me with inches. i wonder if chacal has (decent) feeler gauges, too?

 

He does, or you can even get them from Amazon.com believe it or not.

Your reasoning IS sound; however, it's hard to predict exactly what a too-tight valve will cause because there are so many other factors.

That's why it's so important to have the valves right before beginning any carb tuning.

It's also why it's important to have the float levels set right before trying to adjust mixture; a low float level will cause a lean condition especially at high load/high rpm, no matter what you do.

Which comes back to why it's important to perform all the adjustments in order because a tight valve or a low float can cause non-adjustable issues.

 

I don't place as much emphasis on Valve Clearances being with Specs before commencing a Tuning Session as I do Checking the Compression first.

Unless the Engine is making Compression within Specs ... Tuning one with Low Compression can be a waste of time.

Finding Low Compression will send you to an examination of the Valve Clearances ... where (if you're lucky) ... you can Shim the Valve and get performance back.

You can still do your Tuning is you find Valves that are Tight BUT NOT so tight as you cannot get a Feeler in there.

 

summary:

Plugs:
#1 runs pretty lean, some color on the plug mostly but mostly white - usually white on one side and tan on the other. pilot screw is 4 1/2 turns out.

#2 runs lean all the time, plug is always white. Pilot screw is 5 turns out.

#3 plug looks great - gets pretty dark at RPMs under 3k, light tan at RPMs over 3K. never touched the pilot screw

#4 same as #1
---------------------------------------------------------
since 2 is the leanest and 3 is the richest, i swapped plug wires for 2 and 3, and confirmed it is not and ignition problem.

i've checked for air leaks with propane and couldn't find any.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Compression test with all plugs out, wide open throttle, warm engine:
#1 - 135
#2 - 138
#3 - 140
#4 - 133
-------------------------------------------------------------
Valve Clearances (on cold engine, dimensions in inches):
cylinder___intake____exhaust
1_________.006______.008
2_________.006______.006
3_________.006______.008
4_________.006______.008

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i haven't done the float height adjustment with a tube (stuck drain screws) but last time i had the carbs off, i set all the floats to match #3 since #3 has been running good the whole time. this made no difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
for what it's worth, when i started it up this spring, #3 and #4 plugs were fouled - that's what prompted me to clean the carbs in the first place.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm waiting for a valve cover gasket and donuts from chacal and i'll get that #2 exhaust valve to match the other ones - i'm also waiting for a different fuel filter and fuel line. i'm going to try the new filter, see if that makes a difference, then try just straight fuel line with no filter and see if that makes a difference.

can anyone think of anything else i should try or look at while i'm waiting for stuff to arrive?

 

You're going to have to check the float levels with fluid. If your floats are set too low those cylinders will run lean and you won't be able to adjust it to make it better, no matter what you do.

Setting them physically, even compared to the one that you're assuming is correct, is not going to tell the whole story.

Order some Kroil and get those drain screws unstuck.

 

my boss has a 78 GS1000 and had the same problem he adjusted the float heights and it helped a little bit but when he replaced the vacuum line as well as a straight fuel line (no filter) his bike really came alive! it was like a new motor. but now his #3 carb leaks so he has to readjust. hope that helps.

 

I had a variant of this problem to deal with ... with a Client who: ...

Although he did an exceptionally fine job Cleaning the Carbs ...

DID NOT VERIFY that the Jets were the CORRECT ONES for his Bike.

(You might have the wrong Pilot FUEL Jets in there >>> No matter how many turns Out you set the Pilot Mixture Screws too ... If the Jets are too Small ... You'll continue running Lean.)

 

if memory serves, my main fuel jet is 120 and my pilot fuel jet is 40 - anyone know what they're supposed to be? i'll double check next time i have the carbs off. i'm pretty sure they're right though - since i did check that they're all the same, and number 3 runs so good. . .

i'm really hoping it's just the fuel filter - i got a new fuel line on the way - and that will be tried before the carbs come off again.

i also made a bunch of phone calls and found a place in town that has kroil, so if and when the carbs come off again, i will be trying to get the drain screws unstuck and setting the float heights with the tube method.

i'm a little leary about those screws though, cuz i asked chacal about replacements and he said the OEM screws are philips head, and the ones i have are slotted - so they're not stock - so, i'm pretty reluctant to take 'em out with a screw extractor. for all i know they're JB Welded in place . . . hopefully the KROIL does the trick. do you recommend filling the bottom of the bowl up with KROIL and letting it work through that way, or going at it from the outside? or both?

meanwhile, i found supplies to make a sync tool - i'm gonna hook it up and see what it looks like - don't think i'll be adjusting anything yet, but it might point me in another direction.

 

What removes stuck Fuel Bowl Drain Screws is Impact.

The SEARS Hand-held Impact Driver will loosen the Drain Plug and allow you to replace it OR Doctor the end.

You have to GRIND the Standard Screwdriver Tip to fit down into the Slot on the Drain Screw.
A couple of whacks on the Impact Driver and the Screw isn't stuck any more.

With the Drain Plug OUT ... you can RECONSTRUCT a Screwdriver Slot on the End of the Drain Screw with a Dremel and a Cut-Off Wafer.
Remove as little material as necessary.
Cut a nice Slot across the End.
Clean the Threads on the Plug
Clean the Threads on the Bowl
A smear of Anti-Seize Compound and you never have to do it again.

 

i'll give that impact a try next time i have my carbs off.

 

for what it's worth - i rigged up a 4-tube manometer and #2 tries to drink the whole thing down.

 

Then you are way off.
Assuming you don't have any vacuum leaks and you made baffles/restrictors.

You can begin to tune if you are way off by just hitting the starter, and seeing which carb is pulling the hardest, then tweak, without even running the motor.

This technique could also eliminate the need to bench sync.
Imagine that !!

 

I don't know, ... I think I would still Bench Sync the Carbs. It can't hurt.

In another Forum, a kid recommended using thawed-out Welches Grape Juice Concentrate in the Bottles. "To give it both a heavier consistency and a more Professional-looking Color"

Welshes doesn't recommend using their product for manometers.
Just one guy!

 

lol. i used ATF - i might not have had enough ATF in the system. i'm gonna try rigging up the 2 bottle sync (or borrow a real gauge) before i start messing with the sync.

i hope i'm correct in assuming that if #2 does draw the strongest vacuum, it is not the reason it is running the leanest.

 

"i hope i'm correct in assuming that if #2 does draw the strongest vacuum, it is not the reason it is running the leanest"

The Pilot screw setting is totally independant of the carb sync setting.
A carb pulling the strongest vac could be rich or lean, or righton.

While tweaking and tuning the Pilot jets, minor sync adjustments are needed. With a 4 tube Manometer or professional carb sticks, these minor tweaks are seen in real time- - instantly- - all the time.
(and when you are close to being finished you can tweak any of the 7 screws in any order)

With the 2 baby bottles or one vac gauge no one is going to re-sync the whole rack after every Pilot adjustment.

 

tried a ride this morning with my pilot screw 8 turns out just to see what happens. plug turns almost black if i keep RPMs below 3k. if i ride even as low as 4-5k it turns white again.

i was thinking it was maybe a fuel supply issue and that would make sense to me that since #2 pulls the most vacuum, that it would also be the first to "run out of gas" - but i double checked my fuel flow and all flows good.

i was able to get one of my bowl drain screws unstuck and if the floats are off, they aren't off by much (can't get the carbs truly level while they're on the bike).

TIMEtoRIDE: are you suggesting that maybe it's the synch (or lack thereof) that's causing this?

 

You need to find someone close to you who has a ColorTune Plug and will assist you in doing some Tuning.

Although, after reviewing this thread, I'm wondering if you might have had a Passage clogged ... during the early Tuning ... and,... had them start behaving closer to normal after running the Bike some.

You'd know >> right away ... if you set-up the Carbs using the ColorTuner.
You'd see what was happening.

If you run with the Pilot Screw 8Turns Out ... you risk Losing that Screw.
It will vibrate out and get lost.

 

yeah, i left a message with my local "shade-tree" mechanic. the guy's a true wiz and loves old bikes. i'm hoping he has a colortune - cuz i've called around and nobody in town has one.

 

How much is "not much" I believe the tolerance is +/- 1mm. (I know it is on the Mikunis.)

I would be concerned the most with #2.

If you centerstand the bike on a hunk of wood and then prop up the front (jackstand under the crosstube in front of the engine) you can get them level on the bike.

 

I just reviewed the thread too,
Welcome to XJBikes Gikey !!

"what i'm not sure about is how long (maybe in terms of degrees on the crank?) is the exhaust valve supposed to be closed before the piston starts it's downstroke - that'd tell me (i think) whether the clearance is causing less vacuum draw"

- - the piston is down into the teens of degrees before the exhaust valve fully closes, called "overlap" The intake valve opens before TDC, and both valves are open a little for many crank degrees, maybe more than 30 *

I hope you don't take offense, but you're descriptions of your settings seem to tell me, if I were working on them, that they need to come back off the bike and be double checked.

A, Check #'s of every jet
B, disassembled, but without breaking the rack, blast carb spray thru every internal passage, comparing the spray patterns to each other.
C, The Clunk Test verified
D, upon disassembly, check that a top hat didn't pinch a diapragm causing an air leak (that was me)
E, run a wire thru every emulsion tube hole
F, If you can't break loose your float screws, set your floats using the one working float bowl. Be accurate !!
G, might as well bench sync. My gauge is 2 slips of printer paper, at .010 "
H, re-read "Church of the Clean" or "9 Yards", maybe do that first.

 

no luck coming up with a colortune. looks like i'll have to order one (or maybe someone on here has one i can borrow if i were to offer to pay shipping and provide some sort of collateral - i'll watch my PM's for that).

i think i will be taking my carbs off again to really check the float heights. i understand how the clear tube method works, but i've also read about a 17.5mm measurement - not sure if that's the right measurement for *my* carbs - but, can anyone tell me what that measurement is supposed to be for an 81 seca 750 and where, exactly does one take this measurement? (i have a nice digital caliper at work that i think will work really slick for that method).

 

i got the go ahead to purchase a colortune - but i have a question: do i need the 14mm long reach adaptor?

 

Don't buy the one that needs an adapter.
Just get the one that fits.

 

the one i was planning on getting is 14mm - but says there is a 14mm long reach adaptor available- just wondering if i need that or not.

 

Chacal will sell you the right plug- - no adapter.

Don't bother measuring the carbs, just do the wet test, and double check your work. Drain and re-fill a few times when you think you are done, on each carb. You'll get good at it. 8)

 

well, i ordered a colortune and vacuum gauges. i'm going to correct my tight valve and try the colortune and sync before i take the carbs off again.

although i got a sinking feeling that i'll be pulling the carbs off again anyway.

will definitely go church of clean if it comes to it.

here's a thought: do you think it would be possible to check the diaphragms/pistons by hooking a shop-vac up to the carb and opening the throttle - i'm thinking with the vacuum you should be able to see that the piston goes up (and back down).

 

DO NOT DO THAT!

The ShopVac will have far more Vacuum than your Engine.
You are likely to tear a Diaphragm Rubber.

Just do a Clunk Test with the Membrane loose.
Make sure the Piston rises and falls without binding.

 

alright -thanks for the tip.

i was just trying to figure out a way to double check that a vacuum will actually cause the piston to rise.

 

hey rickomatic i am originally from billerica mass still have a brother there on the tewksbury border, at the moment the bike is running ok 1982 xj1100 im going to take a long ride today weather permitting, we ll see how she runs take care 8)

 

hey gikey - sorry to have hijacked your thread.

before i dig in, i have another question maybe someone can answer for me regarding air leaks.

although i checked for air leaks with propane and found none - i think it's still possible that my #1 and #4 boots are leaking - there is some cracking in the rubber. (i plan to go over everything with RTV to be sure).

however, now that i have a graduated manometer on the way, it occured to me that air leaks should show up as a lower vacuum reading.

can anyone tell me what a typical vacuum reading should be? or maybe another way to ask would be - what's the lowest vacuum reading you would attribute to carbs being out of sync?

 

You can't go by that; if they're too far out of adjustment they just fall off the scale.

Pay absolutely no attention to the actual NUMBERS. You're matching one to another, the actual readings are irrelevant.

I get different "number" readings every time I sync one of my 550s; not vastly different but enough to make the actual numbers useless.

I would gladly loan you my colortune since I could come track you down if you didn't send it back, but the 550s have teeny-weeny spark plugs and it won't fit.

 

i appreciate the offer. i may come track you down someday (if you don't mind, of course) - i grew up near monroe and have lots of friends down that way and would like to take a trip if i ever get this seca straightened out.

 

i don't understand why, but for some reason, internet explorer won't let me see the "edit" button for my previous post - so i'll edit here: i thought, for some reason you (bigfitz) were in the lansing area. but at any rate, unless you live out by ironwood, cows n pigs n chickens has got to be on the way to or nearby some place in MI that i'm planning on going someday.

and even if you are in the western U.P. - there's a trip to Duluth I've been meaning to take for a couple years now. so, at some point in the future, i'll definitely be heading your way.

edit: of course, now that i posted this, the "edit" button came back.

 

so, i couldn't take it anymore and took my carbs off to see what was up. the good (bad?) news is that, at least according to the "dry" method - my floats are dead on - 17.5mm. i'm letting some kroil work it's magic on the drain screws and will verify with the tube method (i hope).

before i took the carbs off, i also checked for air leaks (again) with propane and carb cleaner.

now that the carbs are off, however, i'm gonna go over the intake boots with RTV anyway just to be sure.

i also (going against the warning i got) EXTREMELY carefully checked that the pistons move using a shop vac. i used a wire to hold the throttle completely open and then VERY slowly moved the vacuum hose up to the carb while watching the piston - as soon as i saw it move i took the vacuum away. at least now i know they move and no piston moved more than 1/8" so i don't think i hurt anything.

i checked that my pilot and fuel jets were correct - 120 on all the mains and 40 on all the pilots. i'll be checking the air jets later.

i've now decided it's quitting time. too tired to stay organized enough to dig in further. been up since 3:00pm yesterday - midnight shifts are great, but working midnights is a drag.

i think i'm gonna bring the carbs to work and blow through everything with some real compressed air (all i have is air in a can).

thanks for tuning in.

goodnight.

 

Be sure to retrieve the Flat Washers and O-rings from the Pilot Mixture Screws before blowing through the Passages with high-pressure air.

If you forget ... they'll disintegrate or disappear or go to a parallel universe that cannot be observed by Mortal Earthlings who release compressed air.

 

thanks for the tip rick. luckily i had a dentist appt last week and scored some picks, otherwise i don't know how i would've gotten those washers and o-rings out.

for the record: the washer sits on top of the o-ring, correct? i.e. the spring contacts the washer, the spring does not contact the o-ring? any tips on getting those buggers back in and seated right?

took my hats off and checked my air jets - pilot air jets are all 225 and main air jets are all 80. and for grins - the smaller jet sits in the "middle" of the channel while the larger jet is closer to the fuel enrichment plungers, correct?

ironically (?) the pilot screw for #3 - the one i'd never touched cuz it always ran fine - was the hardest to get out. and it was only 1 turn out??

anyhoo - i think i'm on to something here cuz when i looked at the butterflies to see how N'Sync (please, please forgive the terrible pun) they were, i noticed some schmutz on them that looks to be coming out of the pilot holes. (pilot holes being the holes that the pilot screw adjusts how much fuel comes out of). and, to back my theory up, #2 (the worst performing carb) has the most schmutz on the butterfly.

edit: noticed i described my air jets wrong.

also, the 17.5 mm float height on the hitachi carbs is to the top of the float, right? not to the seam in the plastic like on the mikuni carbs?