All Balls Steering Head Bearing conversion (XJ650J Girlbike)

Back again, it's me .. Abeja! Thought we'd post a separate thread for this to make searches easier for other newbs.

I've heard it said that "the stock loose ball type bearings are fine!". Well, I'd agree with you had my husband (aka "Holeshot" here in the forum) not hit pothole once and the race cracked a little bit, letting one, then four, then ten, eventually ALL of the single balls fell out of the front end ... all before he made it home that day! He was riding on zero bearings by the time he hit the driveway. Once the lowers fell out the uppers fell out in a hurry with each little bump in the road. Bump .. more balls fell out. Another bump, more balls. Use the front brakes a little, more balls fall out. Had they been tapered rollers that would not have happened. Thing is, imagine that happening at speed on the highway! Yikes!

Conjecture aside, here's what we found while doing my 1982 XJ650J.....

We got in the standard kit for my year/model. Arrived soon enough. After some goofing around with them a bit, we noticed that the lower outter race and the upper outter race were very different. Installing the upper race leaves some questions once you look at it ...



See how the race itself looks like it's seated to high, as if it isn't properly "set" into the steering head?

I did a TON of research on that issue. Here's one thread I found here that says some stuff about steering haed bearings, however the info presented by some posters seems to be in direct conflict with what I found on my own.

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... art=0.html

I checked and rechecked the All Balls bearings and setup. Take a look.













See the part numbers on each bearing? See how the races for each bearing have a matching part number on them? Now see how the *lower* bearing set has a much larger hole in the middle (thereby preventing one from ever getting the two sets confused)? So it's easy peasy .. KML bearing goes with KML race. KML bearing has big hole in the middle, it can only fit on the bottom. Conclusion? Shorter KML race goes on the bottom, not the top.

Well, based on that info alone I'd say it is safe to put the taller race on the TOP, and the shorter race on the BOTTOM. Even though the races "seem" interchangeable from upper to lower bearing, they are not. The shorter race goes on the bottom of the steering head. At least that is the case with the All Balls Steering Head Conversion Kit for the 1982 Yamaha XJ650J Maxim. Other bikes, other bearing brands? Who knows! But in this case, the taller race goes on top. I know .. it looks wrong. But going by the bearings and the way they match up per part number, it's the only way it can work.

Yes, you CAN swap them around. But should you? Be VERY CAREFUL with that whole "common sense" thing that tells you to put the shorter race on top. We've both learned over the years that common sense is useful for stuff like "Fire = HOT!" but after that, it's prertty useless. It comes down to "sense common to whom?" in the end.

Just wanted to post this, basically to make people aware that "common sense" usually has little place on bikes. You must ALWAYS ask the follow-up question which is "sense common to whom?" when you go the whole "common sense" route.

If I've missed the mark here .. puhLEEZ inform me. Steering head bearings are no place to leave be if someone's got it wrong, y'know what I mean Vern?

Abeja ...

 

Wow .. I really goofed this up .. disregard this particular post ... duh! Having an idiot moment!

 

There .. it took me a minute to make sure I had all of my "tallers and shorters" in the right places. Just to be sure ...

SHORT RACE goes on THE BOTTOM.

TALL RACE goes on THE TOP.

It should "look wrong" when done properly.

Whew!!

 

Common Sense isn't.
Nice project!
Any sugestions as to make SWMBO not hate my bike?
I can work on her truck for 9 hours and it's o.k. but take an hour to sync the carbs...

 

That not looking right, ... at all.

The TOP RACE gets "Seated" just at the Top of the Headset Frame.

When I "Seat" the TOP Race, ... I use a Hard Plastic Hammer and Strike the RACE's Upper Edge, ... Until the Race is fully seated and "Rings True"

You can't do a job and say its supposes to NOT L@@K RIGHT.

There's a reason it don't look right.
That reason is: It's wrong.

Either you have the wrong Bearings.
They are not installed properly.
Or there's something in the way keeping it Race from fully seating.

Correctly installed, ... Headset Bearing are seated within the Frame.
Nothing exposed.

 

The 99-3505 bearing is the upper bearing.

 

I've used a similar kit on a different bike and it fitted the same as the one pictured and it was installed correctly

We checked with the supplier because we had the same concerns and were told it was normal and it wouldn't have mattered what race was used it would have been the same

The top race would only go in as far as the shoulder in he steering head so it wasn't possible to hit it in until it was flush

 

Same here when I did my bearings this spring - the upper head bearing race is taller than the socket for it to fit in, and sits proud of the neck surface by a millimeter or so.
Having said that - that top photo doesn't look right to me either -- I suspect that race isn't seated fully yet.

 

If the Bearings are not the correct ones and protrude above the Head-set, ... The Upper Tree might not have the Inside Diameter of the Roller Bearing make a good fit on the Steering Stem when the Stem is placed in the Steering Head.

If you conducted a "Side-by-side" Comparison, ... and the Difference is obvious to the Naked Eye, ...

1.) You have the Wrong bearings!
2.) Replace the wrong bearings with a correct set.
3.) Bring OLD Bearings and INCORRECT Bearings to a Bearing Supply House.
Let the Sale Person "Measure & Size" the OLD Bearings & Races.

The Bearings that FIT, ... are a Worldwide STANDARD Bearing.

 

Not to rob the thread but...
If someone has done this on an XJ550 and knows the correct bearings please post. I need to replace my steering head bearings as well. Pictures too if you have them!

 

Re: All Balls Steering Head Bearing conversion (XJ650J Girlb

I put a set of tapered rollers in an XS650 which uses the same steering bearings as an XJ650. The upper race did protrude from the head stock when fully seated, but if I recall correctly only a couple mm. It did cause some head scratching for sure.

What needs to be remembered is that the races in a tapered roller bearing are nested inside each each other instead of stacked like the stock ball bearing. Since the races are nested the outer (lower) race on the tapered bearing needs to be much taller to achieve the proper height.

Aw heck! That's confusing. I drawed a picture.

 

I recently converted a Members Bike from Balls to Tapered Rollers.

After the Top Race was knocked-out, ... we installed the New Bearings.

We used a Hard Plastic Hammer-head to install the Upper Race.

The Upper Race didn't protrude beyond the Top of the Steering Head.
When fully seated, the Race was seated BELOW the Top Lip.

 

Rick - I've checked with multiple sources, including AllBalls themselves, and everyone agrees that the upper bearing race in the tapered roller bearing replacement kit for our XJ's (SSY500 btw - their part number is 22-1015) DOES IN FACT protrude from the headstock ~1.5mm. This is by design, and is normal.

Not all XJ's use the same kit however - this one is the 650 and 750 kit - the 400's, 550's, 900's, 1100's and the X's use a different set. They may actually seat fully - I didn't ask and have no experience.

 

Hello everyone. I did the work on her bike pictured. Some replies:

*** TOP Race was completely seated.

*** Quoting: When I "Seat" the TOP Race, ... I use a Hard Plastic Hammer and Strike the RACE's Upper Edge, ... Until the Race is fully seated and "Rings True" (I did that. But I have a much better way of making certain it's landed than just the "hard ping" method. I like to call it this big technical phrase: Flashlight and Dental Mirror.)

*** Quoting: You can't do a job and say its supposes to NOT L@@K RIGHT. (incorrect. "Looking right" is only a part of correct installations and bench practices. First, determine what "looking right" means. For all we know .. THIS IS "LOOKING RIGHT!". Careful where you aim that *common sense gun* .. ..)

*** Quoting: There's a reason it don't look right. That reason is: It's wrong. (Incorrect. See above reply).

They ARE the proper bearings per the manufacturer (more like distributor).. They ARE installed properly. And the races ARE fully seated.

continued ....

 

+1. Thank you. I found this to be true as well.

 

1.) That all depends on what you mean by "wrong bearings". If you mean that we bought the improper ones for her year/model ... you're incorrect. If you're being sarcastic and meaning that we shoud have NEVER installed All Balls shit .. I'll agree with you.

2.) We do not need to replace them with the "correct set" .. we have the "correct set", we need to replace them with something other than All Balls stuff.

3.) ~ahem~ ... really? Never tried that before. Gee, thanks!

You're incorrect about world wide standards. There are no specs provided for many bearing applications. There are SOME world wide standards, but not all bearing manufacturers adhere to that. Especially if the bearing in question happens to be proprietary. The NUMBERING SYSTEM is a world wide standard.

The upper tree sits properly down on the upper bearing, fits in fine. Well, as fine as All Balls' inconsistant crap is gonna fit.

Lastly .. how does one campare a loose ball setup with a tapered roller setup "with the naked eye"? I'm always open to learning new bench practices, and this one sounds like a good one! So I'd be very happy if you could somehow explain how this is done?

 

Re: All Balls Steering Head Bearing conversion (XJ650J Girlb

This helps a LOT! Those that are confused as heck by this will find this drawing helpful. Thanks for the effort!

 

GREAT! Sounds like that one went in just great!

When I installed the New Bearings, I used a Hard Plastic Hammer-head to install the Upper Race (after seating another way ... posted further down). I also Made Sure that the Upper Race was fully Seated in the Upper Race seat (trying like heck to get that whole capital letter thing you do down .. hard to find any pattern to it though). 8)

I'm sure those that are finding this issue confusing will also find this info helpful!

 

Re: All Balls Steering Head Bearing conversion (XJ650J Girlb

Ok ... let me finish up here with this ...

The upper race doesn't look kinda "normal" .. admittedly. After calling All Balls, sending them pics and such, it was decided (by them) that the upper race was installed as properly as *this one* is gonna get.

After the old stock loose ball setup was removed, I (as always) carefully cleaned out the race seat area in the headstock. Using a flashlight and some pick type tools (anything pointy works) I made certain that the race seats were clean of any old paint, debris, or any metal weirdness sticking out (or sitting in the crook of the race seat). A small toothbrush type wire brush is used to clean out the area as well.

The new races are lightly greased to allow a bit of help on the install. Before I install the race, I "mock install it" by hand. I just sortof lightly press it into the steering head. It will probably kinda "rock" a little bit as you do this. When it rocks, it allows tyou to locate any out-of-roundness issues that the frame's steering head may have. After all, you might have funked-up the area when you went to banging on the old stock bearings that you removed. If I find any of these troubles now is the best time to fix it. DO NOT go and think "Hey, it's only a little out of round, it'll straighten out just fine when I WHACK THE SHYTE OUT OF THE RACE TO INTALL IT! Forced fix, right? Nope. Now you have two problems ... an out of round steering head and a fuddup new bearing race!

To insure they go in straight, I use a race seater at first to get the race started in very straight. If you just go banging away with even a hard platic hammer, there is a chance that the race will go a bit cockeyed as it goes further into the seating area. Of course, it always "looks straight" when you're whacking away at it, but it probably is not. This can knock a race slightly "out of round" and cause the bearing itself to not ride deep enough within the race. So "eyeballing it in" is not a good way to start off with things. Race installers aren't that expensive, some places even rent them for about $10 bux per day.

Once the race is sorta installed a bit into the seat area, THEN I resort to hammers. Usually I'll use a softer brass hammer sitting on the race, then I strike that hammer with a standard ball pien. Evenly working my way around the race ... 12 - 6 - 3 - 9 o'clock hits, changing up the rotational order a little as I go. When that "dead bottom ping" is felt, I tap it a bit more all the way 'round it a few dozen times with the brass hammer.

Still not done! Get out the flashlight .. the GOOD one with the new batteries in it. Or a really good work light. Get out the dental mirror. (what? You're rebuilding your bike and you don't have this staple tool? Maybe ought to get one then?). VIZ-YOO-ALL-LEE inspect those races. Lookj st the parts where they are supposed to "bottom out" in the steering head. Look carefully, and all the way around the race. Be anal about it.

Once you're happy go about instaling the rest of it all. Be ready to have to retorque your work after a little riding. Check this area once per month as well. Tapered rollers have a tendency to "work themselves in" after a bit. When they work in, they'll get loose. So be ready for that mentally.

So then .. the moral of the story? All Balls .. = NO MORE!! If this is the best they can ofer I'm out!

Ricko ... no offense man. But it's your approach. I just need to get to know the way "you are" I guess. It'll happen .. time fixes most everything.

Background:

** Owned and operated an industrial repair shop for 15 years ("Service Depot" .. sold the business in 2009). We were the Factory Authorized Warranty and Repair Center for over fourty different manufacturuers of different types of industrial power gear. Black and Decker, Milwaukee, Makita, Miller Electric and Lincoln Electric, Onan and Generac generators .. good googly moogly if I named it all we'd be here for days. (I've probably installed a thousand sets of bearings in that time)

*** Built sixteen race bikes in my 50+ years. Not much on building street bikes until about a year ago. Three of my racebkes went on to earn statewide champoinships, as well as a District 38 Desert Racing championship in 1987. My first racebike I built ground up was in 1975.

I AM fallable, I DO make mistakes, and I DO still learn ... each day.

Thanks ... I know I've been a pain in the ass here but I just felt like I had to defend our methods. The lesson here is ..

Stay Away from All Balls.

Thanks .. Brian (aka Holeshot).

 

Well, may as well add fuel to the fire--

1. I've not had ANY trouble with the All-Balls tapered bearings. 10 years now, and they are still like new.

2. Let's see, could RickCoMatic have been putting them in wrong all along? snicker

Dave