Start button just clicks

So my analogue MM is in the trash -- I went and bought a new digital MM and it reads 12.32v across the battery and good all the way to the starter motor.

 

What does it drop to when you push the button.... But that might be a moot point if you're going to have the starter hooked up

 

yeah it looks like the connection between one of the brushes and the top case link to the starter wire burnt out but then thinking about it could just be how a starter motor looks so perhaps it just broke. In any case there was a lot of black soot in there which I just won't expect to be normal.

I don't have any experience on taking these apart so any advice appreciated. Upon inspecting the whole think it looks like -- well worn I guess so I figured rather than try to MacGiver the connections back together it would be best to just replace them especially for $15. Starting the bike is kinda essential.

I'll check the voltage drop later on but I'm sure it's ok. Just thinking this through logically though I don't think it will drop if the starters not working right because there's nothing drawing voltage?

 

did you read the tutorial in the diy forum? one photo shows a lot of crap

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/replacing-your-starter-motor-brushes-w-pics.45727/

 

That's exactly what I needed - thanks!

 

don't thank me I'm only the messenger.
Tskaz is the one you thank

 

I thank you cos your dog still scares the shit out of me --- --- Tskaz has been thanked too.

 

So I rebuilt the starter motor and it looks great - went to start it and boom first time no problem... second time again no issue. Third time and the solenoid starting doing this weird fast clicking noise not like normal - faster and quieter. Now it won't start again. Question - when checking for voltage on the starter side of the solenoid between negative of battery what should I expect to see it be when I press start button - I appear to getting about 1.30v -- battery is 12.23v and drops to around 1.3 when I hit start.

 

On the starter side of teh solenoid you should see 12 + volts.
Sounds to me like you have a dying battery. 12.23V at rest is low.

 

IDK - I think that was kinda low cos I'd been messing around with trying to start it for a while. The battery is almost brand new AGM so I doubt it's a problem.

Funny thing is that after posting that I left it for about 10 mins - went back in the garage pressed the start button and there was a little puff of smoke from the solenoid and then it started right up.... I'm going to replace that solenoid and check for any loose wires/shorts around there.

 

Ya do that, and have the battery load tested (it's free) just to be sure. Even brand new batteries can fail.

 

Cool - good idea. I'll take it to autozone tmw. I'm happy the motor appears to be good now - when it's getting voltage it fires the bike right up. The replacement brush kit was well worth it. Nice to replace the 35 year old rubber seals too. The comutator was seriously dirty and pitted - I got it nice and clean and smooth with some glass paper and gave the whole thing a nice clean and lube where needed. I like that good feeling of knowing another part of the bike has been restored to perfect working order. Thanks for all the help. Tskaz's write up was awesome. I found an old egg box came in handy for standing the unit up while putting it together.

 

ok - so this is odd.

I replace the solenoid and everything was great - for about a week or so. Then today I rolled it our the garage - it the start button and it just clicks again - then I notice a whiff of smoke coming from under my right leg. Damn it!

Took a reading from the solenoid and it's basically not passing anything. With MM black probe on the battery negative and red-probe on the battery side of the solenoid I get 12+v -- with the red probe on the other side of the solenoid I get zero -- press start and i hear clicks but nothing on the MM. Then all of a sudden smoke coming out the solenoid...

So...I'm thinking maybe the wire from the solenoid to the starter motor is bad and caused the new (and old) solenoid to burn out? If I touch that wire to the battery positive it should start the bike right? ( cos it doesn't).

 

Dumb question...are you certain all connections at the solenoid are correct?

Gary H.

 

I believe so but a photo of howit should look would help me remove any doubt.

 

hard to reverse wires ( color coded) unless he modified the connector. and its a coil for the relay it would still work
and reversing the Battery + wire (Top bolt) with the Starter wire ( Bottom bolt) would not cause a problem

at this point you should check out the starter button switch , starter circuit relay that could be what smoked.
also check kill switch to ground and solenoid

red white wire runs from fuse to starter switch then down to starter circuit relay then up to the solenoid
the blue white wire runs from solenoid to engine kill switch to ground

I think your solenoid has failed again
i get 3.6 ohms across the blue and red wire for the coil.

I think my wiring diagram is incorrect listing starter switch as kill switch and vise versa

 

did you ever confirm running voltage?

 

yeah it was like 12.60v.

Question - someone said early on here that if I was to short across the solenoid with a heavy screwdriver the bike should start - I did that when it was working with the push button and it didn't start at all -- but pushing the button did start it.... for a while. This makes no sense to me.

If I take a thick wire and run it from the positive on the battery to the starter motor - shouldn't that turn the motor also?

 

if you jump the 2 heavy wires together and the starter is not spinning it is a starter problem or the wire from the starter has failed.
disconnect the wire from the starter hook your meter to that do a continuity test from solenoid connection to starter connection.

yes

the 2 wires with the blue arrows are the coil of the solinoid
the wires marked x1 connected to battery and x2 connected to starter
if you jump these 2 wires together starter should turn
disconnect +wire from battery for saftey
disconnect the x1 and x2 from solenoid
1)check battery wire x1 connector to battery connector. continuity test or ohms.
2)hook your meter to x1 and x2 ON SOLEINOID continuity test or ohms.
turn key on press starter button you should have a squeel for continuity or 0 ohms

3)test continuity from starter wire Connector x2 in my drawing to starter BOLT again squeel for continuity or 0 ohms
4)test ohms from blue wire and red white wire should be about 3.6 ohms
let me know what you got for results

what you are testing for is

1) bad battery wire connector
2) bad starter wire
3) failed solenoid

 

Smoke coming from the solenoid obviously indicates excessive current through the solenoid contacts. I couldn't quite see from you original pictures of your starter, but I believe you mentioned the brush wires had burned, which again indicates excessive current. Or was the burn just mistaken for the blackened carbon buildup from the brushes? Four reasons for excessive current.

1. Shorted windings in the starter armature
2. Armature windings shorted to ground
3. Mechanical failure locking the starter. The starter initially draws a tremendous amount of current, but this is quickly reduced by back EMF as the starter spins. The faster it spins, the less current it draws. If for some mechanical reason (bad bearings, gears, etc.) the starter does not spin it will draw maximum current and overheating in the starter circuit occurs - starter, wiring, battery, and solenoid.
4. The positive terminal insulator and washers on the starter are compromised allowing 12V to be applied directly to ground

Anyway, my guess right now is that you have a defective starter with some damaged windings. About all you can do to verify is check the commutator segments to ground. The actual resistance of the windings is so low that the DMM is of no use to isolate shorted winding and you would need to have the armature checked by a motor shop with the proper equipment to verify 100%.

Here are the excerpts from Len's electrical guide on checking the windings. You can find the complete list in this link near the bottom:

http://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/xj-parts-catalog-section-d-electrical-system.44641/

Step (c) and (d) are meaningful, with step (d) mostly as mentioned above for commutator segments to ground. Step (e) is not going to yield good results with a standard DMM.

c) check the raised segments for continuity between each individual segment and each and every other segments. There should be continuity.

d) check for continuity between every segment (assuming the test in "c" above has already been performed) and the shaft of the armature. There should not be any continuity.

e) check the resistance of the internal coil windings of the armature. You do this via measuring the resistance across every two adjoining segments. It should be:

* 0.012 ohms +/- 6% at 70-degrees F. for all XJ550 starter motors.

* 0.014 ohms +/- 6% at 70-degrees F. for all XJ650, XJ700, XJ750, and XJ900 starter motors.