Rising Oil Level

Sorry this is so long...just wanted to be thorough. This spring I installed a spin-on oil filter kit on my 1982 XJ650 Maxim. In previous oil changes, 3 quarts which is 2838ml always got me to the exact level I needed so I did the same this time. I started the bike and let it run to circulate the oil around. I shut it off and waited 15 or 20 minutes and then checked the level. It was low so I added more until it was where it should be. I took it for a couple hour ride and then a day or two later, I checked the oil level. It was now too high totally covering the window. I just figured that the extra that I added must have been too much so I drained a little so it was once again where it needed to be. The bike then sat for several weeks while I got new tires installed and rebuilt the forks. Over that time, the oil level seemed to stay the same (maybe rising a tiny amount in my mind, maybe not), but I'm still paranoid from reading the forum about getting gas in my oil. My carbs aren't in the best shape so I wouldn't be surprised if the float levels are wrong or a float is stuck. I do know that my petcock does not leak. Yesterday, still being paranoid about gas in the oil, I started the bike and let it warm up. I then shut it off and took a pic of the oil level. I then took pics one hour later, two hours later, and then today. The oil level looked good and didn't change overnight. Well, this afternoon I took the bike for a short 10 or 15 minute ride just to see how the new tires and forks felt. After shutting it off and waiting for about 10 minutes, the oil level is now too high again and totally covering the window. I pulled the plugs and they look good...not wet and a good light tan color. I pulled the fuel hose off the petcock and it's not leaking at all. What keeps making my oil level rise? Can gas be getting in there while it's running? I tried to smell down in the clutch cover but I'm not sure if it's just oil I'm smelling or maybe a little bit of gas too. I know I probably just need to rebuild the carbs but I just put a bunch of money in the bike and was hoping to do the carbs in the fall. Any suggestions on my rising oil level and how it only seems to happen while I'm driving it?

Thanks,
Stacy

 

Check the oil you removed from the bike, see if it has a gas smell, if so, then yes somehow gas is getting into your oil while running. This is not good if it is rising that much in 10 to 15 minutes. If you end up with to much in there you can blow your head gasket.

 

My suggestion would be to drain the oil (not filter) and refill with some fresh oil. Examine the old oil for gas.....obviously something has to be making the level rise. If no gasoline in the oil....chalk it up to crazy Minnesota thing?!

 

Float needles not sealing. Petcock likely needs rebuilt too (a slow leak may not be apparent, but will fill the crankcase over the course of a few hours). It's gas getting into the crankcase. Nothing else makes the oil level just rise on its own.
Get your carbs into good shape and be done with the problem. Don't run the bike again until you do; bearing damage and/or big boom will otherwise result.

 

I just rebuilt the petcock and it doesn't leak a drop. I took the fuel hose off and let it sit for a while and no dripping whatsoever. After the first time it rose, I drained the extra out and then the bike sat for weeks without the oil level rising. It didn't even rise yesterday after just idling for 5 minutes or so. It only rises after I've ridden it for a while. Can gas get into the crankcase while it's running but not when it's just sitting? It's not flooding the cylinders cause the plugs would show it. They look pretty good and not the slightest bit wet. I also did a compression test a few weeks ago and the numbers looked pretty good. It doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I would say rings but your compression would be off then.

 

You're certain that the bike is parked the same each time you are checking it, i.e. sidestand/centerstand, flat ground, etc? Its easy to tell if there is gas in the oil- it will smell like gas. If it doesn't smell like gas, then you're jut being overly paranoid

 

With my bike I check the oil level every time in exactly the same place and on the center stand because the slightest tilt can really change the level, especially if it is normally showing only a small bubble at the top. I also find that if I check it after a ride when it is really hot the level will be a little higher than when when cold or after a three or four minute idle.

 

put find the best place to check my oil at the gas station on the concrete pads.

when i change or add oil at home I put a level across the frame.

 

Yes, it's always on the centerstand and in the exact same spot in my garage. When I smell in the oil filler hole, it doesn't exactly smell like gas but it doesn't exactly smell like oil either so to me its hard to tell. All I know is that the level doesn't rise when just sitting in the garage even after weeks. It only rises after a ride. If I drain just a little to get my open spot at the top of the site window, the bike can then set for weeks or even be started and idle for a bit and the level never goes up. But, take it out for a ride and then give it a bit for the oil to drain back down and the level is too high with no open spot at the top. It doesn't make any sense to me. Could it have anything to do with the spin-on oil filter? I just don't want to spend the time and money on the carbs and then have it still do the same thing. I want to understand what's happening first.

 

Do an oil change and smell the oil in the drain pan, you won't necessarily smell gas in the oil through filler hole. This is the easiest way to check and an oil change will never hurt your motor.

 

I think I'll drain a little first into a clean container to bring my level back down. It didn't take much at all the first time I did it. I'll see if I can smell any gas in that. Should I be able to smell it in the little bit I drain or will I have to drain all of it since gas may just float on top?

 

how much oil do you drain out to bring it back to spec?
I doubt it has to do with spin on filter. think about it, if filter was draining back into motor causing high state it would eventualy go away with you draining oil.
and would work reverse of what you stated would go low on rides then fill when left alone in the garage for days.


3 quarts of oil is a bit too much by haynes manual all other xj650 2.65 quarts with filter
xj650 (11N) and xj650RJ get 2.95 with filter not sure why an 82 seca gets more oil than a maxim
maybe has an oil cooler

 

IF you drain the oil and there is no gas in it, and it's clean, then just put it back in. if it's dirty or has gas in it you will want to change the oil anyway.It's just easier the more you have to sample.
Spin on oil filter works the same way your original did, there is no difference,except instead of having multiple pieces to remove and replace you have one with all the pieces integrated.

 

Check in the same configuration and engine temp. If it's increasing then it has to be gas--at least in my opinion. Temp does matter.

If you look up the coefficient of cubic expansion of motor oil, you will find that it's 0.00039/F. So, taking 60F as a baseline cold temperature and say 200F as the warm temperature, the difference in volumes between cold and warm reading is:

(200F-60F) x 0.00039/F = 0.0546

0.0546 x 4 quarts = 0.2184 quarts

If you know the range of 1 quart on the dipstick, the difference will be ~1/5th of that range, which is definitely noticeable.

...
1998 SW2 5spd 66k mi
1999 C5 hardtop
2007 Magnum SRT8

 

An easier way to adjust oil level go to Dollar tree get a turkey baster and a piece of vacuum hose put it on end of baster , and insert through oil filler squeeze bulb you will fill it up till your level drops to proper level . As a benefit to doing it this way drain oil from baster into clean container as long as oil does not smell like 87 octane . I changed to spin on oil filter too NO this will not cause your oil level to increase. Does sound like one or more of your carbs are draining into crank case it is the only thing I can see( unless Opec is pumping it in lol)

 

Darn. hadn't thought abut OPEC! Maybe they have perfected expanding oil! Like your turkey baster idea.

 

i have tried this does not work on a 550 can't get the hose in far enough to hit oil

 

Maybe my bike is magic and causes the oil to multiply...lol. Maybe I'll start riding more and bottling the extra. Seriously though, I'll go out in a bit and drain some to see how much it takes to get back to the previous level and then go ahead and drain the whole thing and see if it smells of gas. I really appreciate all the help. If I hadn't just put so much money into the bike (new tires, new battery, starter rebuild, fusebox upgrade, fork rebuild, petcock rebuild, etc.) I would probably go ahead and order the parts and tools to rebuild the carbs. I just don't have the stomach to put a bunch more money into it right now until I can understand better what's happening with the oil level rising only after a ride and not after just sitting in the garage.

 

As many have said before....the only logical thing it could be is gasoline in the oil, OR you put too much oil in initially. So unless you have a roommate who's a practical joker, the only think that it could be is gasoline.
It could make sense that you have leaky float valves and when the engine is running there is excess gas spilling into your crankcase. So verify there is gas in your oil or call the US Energy Department and let them know your bike is producing excess oil. It could be worth your while (sorry...I couldn't help myself).
If there IS gas in the oil....a carb and/or petcock rebuild is in order, if there is no gas in the oil you inadvertently put too much oil in to begin with.

 

Floats if not set tight enough may hold when bike is sitting but with vibration and vacuum allow excess gas to spill into crankcase, this is very possible and from all information provided, could be most probable in my train of thought. Makes sense totally to me.

 

Per my factory service manual the engine oil capacity after an oil and filter change is 2650 cc or 2.8 US quarts. I've read on the forums and in Len's information to start with that and then add as necessary to get the level closer to the top with a small window or bubble at the top of the site window. That's what I've always done and 3 quarts is what it's always taken to get there. The level has always been right and stayed that way until my 2 rides this spring both of which occurred after the spin-on oil filter install. That's why I was wondering about it. I'm guessing you're right that the spin-on oil filter isn't a factor though.

 

spin on may take a little less oil to fill due to its size compared to oil cover set up. oil level is a game of ounces, in my case 3oz goes from good to no air bubble.
it is a hard call to make here could be just a little to much oil or gas leaking.
choices check level cold, ride check again when cold, and see if it still rises. your risk is your you may be running on fuel oil mix.
I would be interested in how much oil you are removing or have removed keep track of that when you remove when you remove 1/2 pint (8 oz) or more then it may be gas.
most important is checking under the same conditions every time. .2 quarts is 6.4 oz of oil over fsm spec and could be a factor with smaller filter can size
have you checked the fuel levels in the carbs you could have a high state and now over time a leaky seal on the needle valves.

 

I didn't measure the amount of oil I drained out the first time but it wasn't a lot. I'll measure this time when I do it in a little while. Stay tuned . I haven't checked the fuel level in the carbs cause I can't get the screws to turn without stripping them out.

 

Ok, I drained 100ml (about 3.4 oz) to get the level where it needs to be. The smell...I'm not really sure. It smells like blow-by fumes or exhaust fumes to me. I guess it does have a little bit of gas smell to it. I'm sure the fuel levels are probably off and/or the needle valves are leaking. I'm going to leave it sitting there and see what happens to the level while I'm researching what tools and parts I need to order from Len to rebuild the carbs.

 

A little bit of gas in the oil won't kill it, it will turn to vapor and get sucked out the breather. Do you park it on the center stand, try that. Maybe the floats are having trouble being tilted over.
Last resort pull the fuel line next time you park it, now you know it isn't gas.

 

Yes, I always use the centerstand. I've left it sitting for weeks at a time and the level doesn't increase. It only increases after a ride so I'm guessing it's happening while the engine is running. Maybe the fuel levels are set too high or the needle valves are leaking or both and the extra fuel that gets in there while running ends up in the crankcase after the ride...if that's possible. I'm not sure if that can happen without it showing up on the plugs cause they look pretty good.

 

Pull off your carbs, drain float bowls remove float bowls. pull float pin carefully pull float check your needle it should ( not all are like this) slip off tab . What you are looking for is if tip is deformed or stiff or seat dirty . I use the solid brass needle , while you have this out take a "Q" tip and a little metal polish, and polish the seat( chuck it in drill and one pull on trigger usually does it) . If you luck out it will only require cleaning, but may need new needles and seat.

 

if the petcock is NOT leaking and all the floats were stuck open only the fuel in the line could drain into the engine, you would never see that in the site glass.
do you have a see-thru filter on the fuel line? does it stay full?
how many times has this happened ?
look in the bottom of the airbox for excess oil, that's where it will go if the level is too high

 

Yes, I have a see-thru filter and it stays full. This has happened after each ride this year which is 2 times. The bike can sit in the garage and the level never changes. I just checked on it after draining a little oil at lunch time which was almost 6 hours ago and the level hasn't gotten any higher than where I drained it to. I looked in the airbox and it's dry, but I did notice a strong gas odor when opening the lid. Is that normal? The bike can sit just like it is and the level won't change, but I guarantee if I take it for a ride, then let it cool for a while, that it will be high again. It only seems to happen after riding it. What does that mean? Can fuel get in the crankcase while its running without fouling the plugs? The plugs look pretty good.

 

Here's what it comes down to. Fuel is geting into the crankcase. Dosen't matter how; just matters that you address the problem by checking the only path by which fuel can enter the crankcase. That will require taking things apart. One possible fault that has not been mentioned is a pinhole in the petcock's vacuum diaphram.

 

I know you're right but I can't help but want to know the how and why. I have a hard time putting upwards of $400 in parts and tools toward a problem when I don't really understand what's happening. I realize that the fuel level is wrong or the needle valves are leaking or both but the fact it only gets fuel in the crankcase while it's running is really puzzling me. Maybe I'm just hoping there's some other solution than rebuilding carbs. I should probably just face the inevitable and do it.

 

That would let fuel into the carbs through the vacuum hose right. I'll go pull that hose and see if anything comes out.

 

It would. and depending on where the hole or tear is, it might only happen with the engine running.

 

I pulled the vacuum hose loose from the carb and sucked on it 5 or 6 times. It seemed to hold the vacuum and I didn't get any fuel in my mouth. I'm not sure if that's the correct way to test the diaphragm but it seems like if there was a pinhole, that I would have sucked in some fuel. Oh well, I'm putting my list together of things to order from Len. Any suggestions on tools I'll need to go along with the deluxe complete carb rebuild kit? I've got normal hand tools but nothing specific to do carbs with. What do I need to do the job right?

 

A JIS screwdriver. Those screws aren't phillips and will strip out if you try to use a phillips screwdriver on them.

 

I've got those in my list. Other things I'm thinking are

• mini cleaning wires tool set
• starter jet wire probe tool
• brass wire bristle cleaning brushes set
• float height gauge
• diaphragm RnR fluid

I know I may not "have" to have all of those but if I'm going to do the job, I'm going to do it right. Tell me if I should pass on any of those. Is the RnR fluid a good idea or is that not worth it?

 

simple check, run it on prime and plug the vacuum port

 

I've never used any of those, but that does not mean they have no value.

 

I would try that but I'm afraid to run it now.

 

Loose 'n all 4 intake clamps , disconnect the choke cable, throttle cable. ( if you have a stock airbox RECOMMENDED) loosen all 4 clamps use a blunt tool and push boots into airbox . There is a 10mm bolt at top of the airbox just below the tank ( hint remove tank hold down bolt use a block of wood to hold tank up) I remove the bolt gives you a little more play. Takes a little effort wiggle carbs out of boots( a small hammer handle works well ) carbs should pop out , and now your off to the races!!! I know the feeling of "it just can't be " or I've already put XX$$$ into it. I see you list Lake park MN ...I used to live in Eagan Mn when I worked for NWA 18 yrs.

 

Yep, it's a stock airbox. Lake Park is about 4 hours northwest of Eagan. Small world.

 

Lol, 4 hours takes you damn near half the length of the UK..

 

LOL I want to go to England some day...but you all drive on the wrong side of the road !!!just a little Merican humor .

 

you do not to go to UK to drive on the wrong side of the road, we do that here.......

 

Same... but, I definitely would recommend as (k-moe suggested), the set of JIS screwdrivers. Len has them.

While you're in there, swap out the butterfly screws with some new allen head versions. You'll want to replace the existing ones anyway. Also.. Loc Tight those buggers- you don't want them unscrewing on you.

Lastly, a tiny container of silicone grease to lightly dress your new rubber fuel o-rings and throttle shaft seals.