Fuel Tank liner(?) issues on new shiny '82 XJ750 Maxim

I'm the proud owner of a shiny new 82 XJ750 Maxim:

On imgur: BVRJZsm
(on her way home)

She's been treated remarkably well by the PO, and is running. Almost completely stock, not cut up at all, new plugs, wires, brake cables, fuse box, clutch, and more. I'm really happy, and can't wait to get riding. There's two problems, however.

First, the tank appears to have been lined with some wierd stuff, presumably to prevent corrosion/rust/whatever. I crammed my phone as best I could in there to get a pic, but my concern should be immediately obvious:

Imgur: G68CvEh
Imgur: TwRR2Gx

I dunno what it is, but whatever it is, it's peeling off inside the tank and waving around in the fuel. This will almost certainly eventually result in a clogged petcock, fuel line, or whatever else sooner or later.

Because of my second problem (I'll get to that in a bit) I can't ride right now, so I figured this would be a good time to fix it. Normally, I'd pop the tank off, toss in a bunch of nuts and bolts, and shake it like it owed me money. However, this is my first bike with a fuel gauge, I'm unsure where the sending unit is, and how to remove it.

I've a Haynes manual being shipped, but it's not here yet and I'm impatient

So, I was hoping the good folks here could toss me some advice regarding:

1) Is there a better way to go about this? Any solvents or such that might get that gunk out, but not damage the (surprisingly fantastic) paint on the tank?
2) How to remove the fuel level sending unit (or otherwise protect it?)
3) Anything particular to this bike I should be aware of when dealing with this?
4) Something I'm not smart enough to have thought about in this process?

Thanks in advance!

Oh, that second problem? Despite it being mid March, this is happening:

Imgur: yawgVLu

and it's -22C right now


PS: Hmm; apparently I can't embed images yet, being new here. Hopefully links will work?
PPS: Nope, no links, well, I'll remove the imgur address, and see if that works. Sadly, the forums seem to think I'm spamming, but I don't know what exactly I'm doing that's falling afoul of the filters.

 

Caswell has the best tank lining system (POR-15 is also as good). You'll need to use MEK to remove the old liner (the Caswell kit comes with instructions for this).
Preperaton is key, but once done you'll have a permanant liner that will never peel, and will not be damaged by ethanol.


In order to kill a bot problem the site owner made it so new users have to have posted 5 times before being able to link or embed.

 

Once you get to 5 posts, you'll be able to upload images. I like that your 35 year old bike is new. Does that mean that my 40 year old bod is young?

 

I don't care about relining it, really; I just want to get the stuff in the tank out. There's big chunks (if you append the codes to imgur dot com backslash then you can see them) of liner just peeling up and waving around in the tank.

MEK = Methyl Ethyl Keytone / Butanone? I'm looking around online, but not finding it for prices that aren't really intimidating (such as $100+ on Amazon dot ca). Know what sort of shop I can find some at that's less than $100?

Edit: Found some; Canadian Tire has cans for $12. Way more accessible.

I get the link restriction, but damn, that's frustrating >.<

 

Yes, my 35 year old bike is new, and my 40 year old bod is also young. It's all in perspective, and copious use of Advil.

 

In the U.S. most paint shops carry MEK in quart and 1/2 gallon cans. You don't need to fill the tank with it. The old liner can also be removed with phosphoric acid, but it might require more agitation and time to get the liner out. The tank was lined for a reason, and I'll bet that you'll find it leaks once the liner is removed.

 

Will MEK damage the paint? Obviously, I'd take care to avoid contact, but is it something I'm pretty much certainly going to kill the paint with?

 

That would be frustrating. I guess it's a "one problem at a time" thing, though; I clearly can't leave the liner there right now, as it's certainly going to cause fuel blockages.

 

I looked closer at the image of the liner. There is clearly rust behind it. It looks like the liner was Red Kote which is one of the older (and crappier) lining systems.
The upsode is that household vinegar will usually remove it, but it will take several days of soaking.
If you use the Caswell liner you don't need to clean any of the remaining surface rust, just get the chunks rinsed out of the tank.

 

Aha, 5 posts, I'll try those pics again:

The bike coming home:
Liner issues:

 

Aha! Well, I'll grab some MEK - at $12, I'll just go that route.

Assuming I have to re-seal it with the Caswell kit, I'll need to remove the petcock and the fuel level sending unit. Anything special i should know about the sending unit, or just take it off and plug the hole?

 

And, I assume I can just leave the sending unit and petcock attached while cleaning it out with MEK, right? Be a lot easier without extra holes!

 

You want to remove both. MEK is nasty, nasty stuff and will damage the rubber and plastic parts of both components. I highly reccomend waiting on cleaning out the old liner until you have the new lining material on hand.

 

If your bike doesn't already have one, you may want to install an aftermarket fuel filter in the fuel line. You can find information about them on this site. I got one from XJ4ever (Chacal) and installed it in like 5 minutes, only cost about a "loonie toonie."

 

Yeah, I actually have a spare old in-line fuel filter on hand I was planning to pop in there once I take the tank off. There'll undoubtedly be some random crap left once I'm done, and carb passages are small!

Yeah, I'd like to, but I'm not going to be able to afford a liner kit for a while; probably not a couple months. I've been waiting 5 years to get another bike, I need wheels on the road quickly or I'll go crazy =)

Will absolutely remove the petcock and sending unit, though. Thanks for the heads up there

 

In that case you had better treat the tank afer removing the liner. Phosphoric acid is cheap (it's a common treatment for swimming pools) will convert any remaining rust and prevent flash rusting. Let's hope that the tank doesn't have any holes. You'll need new gaskets for the sending unit and petcock. Chacal has them in stock; start a converstion.

 

Thanks! Pinged Chacal about the gaskets, and will look at grabbing some phosphoric acid while I'm getting the MEK.

 

Ok! So the plan as it is:

Tomorrow:
* Pull the tank
* Remove petcock, sending unit, and cap
* Install fuel filter in line after petcock before I forget about it.
* Block off holes as best as possible. Probably just several layers of duct tape reinforced with hope.
* Dump in the MEK, swirl it around as much as possible before my hole plugs inevitably fail. Here's hoping this breaks down the worst of the old liner (which was REALLY poorly applied). Allow it to sit till it works it's way out.
* Drain and THOROUGHLY rinse the tank.
* Re-seal tank petcock/sending unit holes
* Dump in bag of aquarium gravel and square nuts.
* block filler hole with bathtub plug, securely tape in place.
* Cram into dryer, supported by blankets and pillows so it can't move.
* Set to tumble with no heat for an hour or so.
* Hope I don't destroy the dryer. Need deniability, or wife will murder me in my sleep.
* Wash out tank again, fill with water, attempt to look for potential leaks.
* Dry, spraybomb with WD-40 till I can figure out if I can get some liner before my new gaskets arrive or not.

If they are leaks, well, I'll deal with that when I get there.

Pics and progress report to follow, unless I blow myself up, or worse, damage the dryer and the wife murders me.

 

What makes you think she will wait until you are asleep?

Good luck with that!

 

Agreed. If you destroy the dryer, she's going to want you to feel EVERYTHING!!

 

@Wintersdark

One of the cool things about the Caswell liner is that you can just tape over any holes and the epoxy will seal it. You also don't need to worry about treating the tank with oil to prevent new rust (in fact you'll need to thoroughly strip the oil out or the new liner will fail). The Caswell epoxy actually adheres better with some surface rust present. It also prevents new rust from forming under the liner, so just tumble the tank to get rid of the big chunks.

 

Good to know!

Progress report:

Working outside in -25C has some challenges. First, my precious coffee froze while I was drinking it. This just sucks; I was even drinking it fast to try and avoid that.

Unbolted the tank, pulled it off, added the inline fuel filter.
Drained the tank. I'm sure there's a better way to do it, but I just stuck it between a pair of chairs, turned the petcock to Prime, and let it drain into a jerry can. Did this inside, because it's frickin' freezing out there. Wife irritation level increases (you're doing WHAT in my kitchen?). Shook out as much of the rest as I could outside, then filled and rinsed with water a few times to get as much leftover gas out as possible before taking things apart more.
Removed the sending unit and petcock. I'm glad I've got new sealing washers and gaskets coming, because I'm pretty sure these are the originals - at least, the ones that still exist at all. Half the bolts didn't have them at all, and the others where clearly very old.
This is the sight that greeted me, after removing the sending unit:

Before getting involved with the MEK, figured it'd be best to pull out what I could, so I grabbed it and started pulling.

and pulling, and pulling:

when I ran into a problem. There's some water left in the tank still (hard to drain it all) but it froze. Also, when softened by hot water, the old liner flops around freely. When in -25C weather, however, it starts to seriously harden up. So, pulled out what I could (a LOT), and brought the tank back inside to thaw and hopefully allow me to just pull more out.

Lunch time!

 

Duct taped up the holes, dumped my MEK in, swirled around.



Pro tip: MEK eats duct tape. Fast. I mean, really, really fast. So, I got less time with the MEK than I'd have liked, but it DID break the remaining liner down substantially. It's mostly still there, but all rough and chewed up. This should help the hardware in the next phase - the aquarium gravel, nuts and bolts - to grind the remainder out. Well, one can hope.

Pro tip 2: MEK does eat into the paint, but slowly. Rinsed off some that got on the outside of the tank and there's no mark, but the area around the petcock/sending unit where it was held against the tank with duct tape basically vanished. I'm unconcerned about this, though, it'll be covered by the gasket anyways.

Re-rinsed the tank. Damn. MEK is nasty stuff. I work with all sorts of industrial solvents all the time, but that's particularly nasty. Whew.

 

Before MEK:



After MEK:



Ok, so sure, it looks like something out of a horror movie. However, I think it'll come apart pretty damn quick once the tumbling happens.



I'm really glad I got a fuel filter.

 

Loaded it with 200 m4x10 bolts that are spare from my 3D printer build, and a kilo of scratchy "all natural" aquarium gravel. None of that processed fake gravel for my ride.

Sealed it again with duct tape, stoppered the fill hole with a bathtub plug, wrapped it in a blanket, stuffed it into a plastic bag, wedged it into the dryer with pillows and towels.

It's tumbling now - nice and quiet, really. The wife remains blissfully unaware of what's happening in the basement.

 

Tumble done, an hour of tumbling cleaned out the big stuff, but there's still a coarse, very hard layer of old liner in a lot of places, and the surface rust. No big rust chunks, but lots of surface (likely mostly new). The wife remains unaware, and the dryer is fine. *whew*

Seems the nuts and rocks aren't going to take off the remaining liner, but on the other hand it's firmly attached: There's nothing loose or floppy now. I suspect a bath with a LOT of MEK would clean that up, but that's gonna cost a lot. I'm going to leave it where it is now, get things hooked up again. In the mean time, I'm thinking I'm just going to keep my eyes open for a replacement tank, see if I can find one reasonably priced vs. the cost of a gallon of MEK + a Caswell liner kit.

Time to get the shopvac out and get the rocks and bolts out of the tank.

 

And now for an episode of "Good Idea, Bad Idea!"

Visited the brother in law today, discussed my tank predicament. We've drank maybe a little too much whiskey, and he mentions he's got this small part tumbler. We could strap the tank to the top of it, fill it with media, and let it go overnight.

In my semi inebriated state, this sounds like a good idea, so we just out the duct tape and tape the tank on top of his part tumbler and let 'er go.

Now, back home, I admit to some concern. If part of the tape let's go, it'll bounce my gas tank all over his shop, which could have hilarious and or sad consequences.

On the other hand, that thing REALLY vibrates, so theres no way anything is surviving inside there.

I guess I'll see what happens!

 

You'll be happy with the Castwell tank liner. Its quality stuff and wont break down like that stuff you found in your tank. My advice when appling the Casrwell is: make sure to apply it in a somewhat warm environment (55+ degrees), allow the product and the tank to acclimate to a decent temperature and give it plenty of time to cure. Its pretty chilly where you live this time of year so find a warm spot to re coat your tank.
The Castwell product has one hell of a strong smell when the two parts are combined, it will knock you over, no problem. I doubt that your wife would go for the industrial smell overpowering the house if you decide to sneak into the basement to coat your tank.
Let us know what your results are and stay out of trouble!

 

I'm actually very interested in this thread because 2 out of three of my XJ900s tanks will need to be lined properly as a start point. I wonder if the Caswell kit would be enough to line two tanks ?

 

Still working at getting the old liner out before a new liner is even an option. That turns out to be a lot more challenging than one may think, particularly given how many holes there are in the tank. I'm hoping it's night on the parts tumbler has gotten it nice and cleaned up (and not horribly damaged) but if this doesn't work, I'm just going to go with whatever is left in there and call it a day. If it leaks, we'll just weld it and call it a day.

 

Well, got the tank back - the vibrator helped clean things up a bit, but didn't make a really appreciable difference. There's still some of the old liner left on raised areas such as the "saddle" part, but it's just spots and very firmly attached.

Filled it with Metal Rescue, left it for a few hours, drained it out. That stuff works wonders; it's unreal. A two hour soak and literally NO rust remained anywhere. WD40 bombed the whole inside, drained out any liquid excess after a lot of swishing around just to be safe, and I'm going to go with that, see if it leaks anywhere. Now it's just a matter of waiting for my new gaskets from XJ4Ever, and I'll throw her back together and get 'er going.

If the tank leaks, I'll deal with that then.

 

What is exactly Metal Rescue?

 

An expensive, and dilute acid. Which acid I'm not sure of, but it has a PH of 6, and can result in the formation of iron oxide 2 (not a bad thing unless you need shiny metal).
The upside is how safe it is to use. The downside is the cost.
http://www.workshophero.com/products/metal-rescue/faq/#1474387900168-8e377ecf-f45e

 

Yeah, it's kinda pricey, but has the advantages listed above plus the fact that it's reusable (how often depending on how rusty the parts are). At the local Canadian Tire, the jug was $30.

It's ecologically safe, harmless to rubber/plastic/skin/etc.

They of course recommend filling the tank to soak it. I suppose you could do that, but I'm poor, so I just dumped one jug in (1 gallon I'd assume? Roughly 4 liters) turned the tank on its side, then rotated the tank every hour to give every part of it exposure.

Worked brilliantly, better than anything I've ever seen. Didn't severely discolor the stuff - it apparently works till it's black, and ended up only light grey - so it's got a lot of usage left.

 

Don't use gravel. Use steel nuts, bolts and screws. shake it all up twice a day for about 4 days
and the nuts and MEK will turn the old liner into goo. Use a flexible shaft retrieval magnet to
get at all the nuts etc. that don't shake out of the filler hole. Gravel can get stuck in the goo.
Any 35 year old tank is a good candidate for caswells.

 

The problem with MEK for me is my tank has several holes- the fuel sending unit, and petcock in particular, that I was unable to securely cover to hold the MEK.

It worked amazingly well for the 15-30 seconds before the MEK resolved the duct tape I had though!

The gravel and nuts and bolts came later - gravel due to a recommendation elsewhere on these forums.

I would not use gravel again. Hard to get it out, and generally ineffective at removing anything.

 

I used a scrap of metal and used the fuel sender gasket as the patern and cut and drilled a fuel sender blanking plate and bolted in place. Next another scrap of metal I made a petcock blanking plate. Then at the auto parts store I got a 1.5 inch / 40mm rubber freeze plug the kind that expands when the nut on it is tighten and use that to plug the fuel fill hole

 

When you clean out all the old liner the tank will probably leak...maybe not.

750 tanks are hard to find because they fit both 650 and 750 and 650 guys like the extra gallon.
But you could find a 650 tank if you don't mind the shorter range

 

That was mentioned earlier. What's left is barely enough to notice (imagine a film of dry Elmer's glue on your hands). Based on his pictures it's pretty much even odds that the liner was done in order to prevent the rust from getting bad enough for the tank to leak.

 

Got everything back together, took the bike for a brief ride up and down the street. Everything's running reasonably well, though she definitely needs some tuning.

The tank doesn't appear to leak as of yet.

 

if it was leaking you'd notice right-quick (at least I hope that you would).

 

Yeah. If it's leaking at all, it's a VERY small leak, as I watched it like a hawk for a few minutes, rode the bike around a bit, and didn't find anything. I'm pretty confident it's good. Despite how scary the photos looked above, the rust inside the tank was pretty minimal, and most was flash rusting after I'd rinsed out the MEK-mangled old liner with water. So, I'm going with "Some PO installed the liner as a preventative."

Heck of a thing, though. That was my first ride on XJ, and man, it pulled hard, particularly around 6-7k. A fair bit more power than I expected it to have. Only went up and down my side street, so I didn't have an opportunity to really open it up, but it sure felt good.

Gonna have to do the fork seals and change the oil, and adjust the suspension to account for my weight (I'm a pretty big guy), but I'm damn pleased.

 

So, after my gas tank shenanigans, I've got my Maxim insured and registered, and taken her for a tear around the neighborhood a few times. There's a few priority maintenance issues before I start taking longer trips with her, but first and foremost: The brakes, because stopping via brakes beats stopping via impact.

Even with light pressure on the front lever, you can feel pulsation. Harder pressure results in definite shudder/shaking of the front end, leading to visible movement of the front forks. Scary, and a problem I've never experienced before.

The rotors are not new, but they're not terrible looking and have a decent amount of thickness still. Pads are definitely worn and need replacing.

An interesting symptom here is that the left rotor is HOT, while the right rotor is cool - clearly, the left rotor is shouldering all the braking.

Can - whatever the cause - only one rotor doing the breaking cause that shudder?

I'm going to try bleeding the brakes tomorrow, in case the right brake has air in the line. Gotta call around and see if I can get some new pads locally on monday and do that too.

I've got a master cylinder rebuild kit on hand, but to be honest I don't see how that would help things.

Any thoughts, things to check?

 

Stop riding and rebuild the brake system. Anything made of rubber should be replaced.
The whole system was meant to be rebuilt every four years. It's been more than four years.



(I merged this to make it easier to keep track of what has been done to your machine so we can troubleshoot better. I can edit the title if you'd like.)

 

caliper needs rebuilding, could be right side caliper is not working and is stuck.

also check your head stock bearings

 

Yeah, no more riding until I have that sorted. I've been in a two major bike accidents in my life, and would rather not be in a third.

There are brand new brake lines and banjo bolts on it already, which is nice. I don't know the status of the master cylinder (I'm not really certain how to check it, or what indications would show it needs work) but I do have a rebuild kit handy, so that can be done. That leaves the calipers themselves, unless I'm missing something painfully obvious (which is, admittedly, not unlikely).

How to check the head stock bearings? I hadn't considered that - I assume you mean the bearings between the forks and the frame, right? As simple as putting the bike on the center stand, setting it back on the rear wheel and checking for front end play at the end of the forks? Or is there a better way to check that?

 

STEERING HEAD BEARINGS:

OEM and aftermarket steering neck or "tube" replacement bearings bring that brand-new feeling back to your bike, improving handling, braking, and steering performance that has been reduced over the year by wear and tear on the bearings and related parts. We offer both the original Ball Bearings and parts for models so equipped, as well as aftermarket Tapered Roller Bearing Kits needed to upgrade this critical area to the most modern design.

Does your bike need new steering head bearings?:

Is this you?:

- "Basically, I am getting a nasty death-wobble at speed on my bike. How can I tell if the steering head bearings are bad? Head shake?"

Here's how to check your steering head bearings:

a) Place the bike on the centerstand, and have a helper sit on the rear of the seat to put the front wheel in the air.

b) Crouch in front of the bike and grab both front forks toward the bottom.

c) Try to "wiggle" the forks fore and aft; there should be no play.

d) With the wheel still elevated, slowly turn the handlebars lock-to-lock. You should feel no binding, looseness, or "bumpity-bumping" in the bars while turning; it should be free and smooth.

e) From a completely centered position, give the handlebars a gentle push to one side. It should fall to full lock smoothly, without binding. Return the bars to straight (centered) and repeat this test in the other direction. If there is a "detent" or looseness at the center, you probably need new bearings

f) If your steering (forks) "lock" in the centered position, and take a good amount of pressure to get them off of the centered position, then your steering head bearings are either over-torqued, or, more likely, worn out.


NOTE: the factory service interval for the re-packing of the steering head bearings with grease is every 10,000 miles (all XJ550, XJ650, XJ750, and XJ1100 models) and every 16,000 miles on the XJ700 and XJ900RK models. The bearings should be inspected every 2,500 - 4,000 miles for looseness, and adjusted as necessary.

NOTE: all 1992-98 XJ600 Seca II, XJ700, XJ750-X, XJ750RL, XJ900, XJ1100, and all XS1100 models used tapered roller bearings originally; all other XJ models used ball bearings from the factory.

NOTE2: always use a high-quality, waterproof grease when installing any style of steering neck bearings!

 

Hey thanks, Chacal! So my guess was right!

So, steering head bearings are a problem; definite fore and aft movement. Turns smoothly and freely, but fore and aft at the wheel I can get a couple mm's movement.

Turns out, in my Big Box Of Parts I got with the bike, I've got caliper rebuild kits and steering bearings. The previous owner was, in fact, not the horror story that seems so common; he'd done some good work on the bike and included a lot of stuff as well.

However, the steering bearings don't specifically say they're for this bike. They're the only thing in this box that doesn't say that, and instead just concerningly says "Steering Brg - Seal kit, Kawasaki, See catalog for fitment." I'm curious if this is the wrong part, or if there's crossover in fitment with the aftermarket bearings. I've been trying to find a catalog to check, but failing. This is the kit:



Hmm. These are tapered roller bearings. Chacal says above that originally my 82 750 would have had ball bearings (only newer bikes had the tapered rollers) however, is that an indicator that they won't work?

The bearings themselves have "99-3518 CB15-8" and "95-3519-1 CB15-10" on them.

Seem suspiciously for a Kawasaki ATV, but if they're the correct size? I don't know. Ordinarily, I'd just assume not, but said PO seemed pretty knowledgeable and this Big Box 'o Parts has pretty much everything that's questionable on the bike in it.

 

Hmmm. I'm thinking no. Couldn't find good info from Quadboss, but they're AllBalls bearings. There's a 22-1004 ID on the pack, but going to allballsracing.com shows the kit for the XJ750 being 22-1015, and while I can't quite read the numbers on the bearings in their photo, they're definitely not the same numbers as on these bearings. So, there's that, though that's assuming the photo is even correct.

I think I'll just get a new set, can get it for $30 locally, so if they're actually identical then I just have a spare set.

 

If I recall correctly tapered roller bearings are the 'new and improved' steering head bearing.

Do not let the steering head bearing make you lose sight of the uneven braking pressure. I do not know anything about a dual caliper front brake, can't comment if bleeding the 'non functional' side is worth doing.

Although it sounds like the PO has done much good with your bike, it is your bike now. Make no assumptions about what is still good when it comes to safety items.