'89 Radian engine into an '85 XJ600/FJ600?

Yes, good site, that's where I found the much clearer YX600W wiring diagram (as an appendix to the earlier model's manual.)

To think that I could've avoided all this trouble had I sourced an early-model Radian engine. #facepalm

 

You can also use XJ600 parts from 1989 - 1990. I have this model and it's the same engine as your Radian. Is your engine 56 hp like mine?

 

Official Yamaha specs claim 66hp for the Radian.

 

There is a way to regain some of that horse power for XJ600. The only difference are carb boots and slide needles (not sure if that's the proper term but I hope you know which part I mean). I got this info from a guy who got his Yamaha "unblocked" at a dealership in Germany. You might check part numbers for Radian if they are different for early and late models.

 

It'd be interesting to get the bike on a dyno if and when I get it running properly. I know the 72hp (at the crank) FJ used to dyno in the mid-50s RWHP.

I don't know if the cam profiles are different on this engine - just by looking at them, it seems as though the Radian's exhaust cam lobes are beefier, but it's hard to tell without pulling them out.

 

You might as well switch cams

 

I even have an extra set of FJ camshafts. One thing at a time though! Let's get her going on all four.

That sounded wrong.

 

Looks like XJ600 engines can ba a pain in the backside I rebuild mine and it doesn't want to start.

 

Installed brand new 2.2-ohm coils today. Got one spark then nothing, most likely because of a bad crimped connection. Will solder and heatshrink everything tomorrow and go from there.

Interesting nerdy fact - the old 3-ohm coils (green) have an inductance roughly two times higher than that of the 2.2's (grey). 12mH vs 6.6mH. I have no idea of the implications in the context of an ignition coil, but that seems like a large difference.

 

Huge difference, and if dwell was not adjusted to compensate the spark would be considerably weaker with the old coils.

 

New coils didn't change a thing. Still running only on 1 & 2 and the starter spins up.

Next step is to integrate the Radian relays, which I'm still waiting for - delay at the US/CAN border.

Ugh.

 

Totally disappointing to read that. I know I have asked before, and you have swapped plug wires, but how about evaluating the plugs on the 3 and 4 cylinders again to be sure they have not fouled from poor or no spark? Maybe just pull them and have a look again and see what they look like and do a quick ohm check to be sure they are not fouled? Then swap in either new plugs or swap the known good ones to 3 and 4 as well as reversing the coil wires one more time just to be sure.

And, maybe precede starting with a quick wet check of fuel level in the 3 and 4 carbs to make sure the fuel level is correct.

I know you mentioned you don't like running it in the present condition, but it should take just a couple of seconds to do the screen capture with the scope if the above fails to identify an issue.

 

Do you know how much you slowed it?

Can you post the same video at normal speed?

 

I merely used my iPhone's slo-mo feature. I would assume that the slo-mo part is played back at 0.25x - 120fps stretched out to 30fps.

If I turn off the slo-mo effect, the iPhone plays the video at 30fps after discarding the extra 90 frames/sec, which makes most of the sparks disappear.

I'll go hook up the scope later tonight or tomorrow and report back.

 

Bike refused to start with the scope hooked up. Then after I took it off, I tried firing up again and the first thing I got was a massive backfire through the exhaust, which reverberated through the parking garage for what felt like an eternity.

Getting discouraged again. Maybe God is telling me it's time for a new bike.

 

More bad news that it did not go well. Has the battery been charged lately?

I convinced myself that I have evaluated that slow motion video successfully, and the your bike is cranking at 187 rpm, which may be useful as it is on the slow side. I checked my 82 750 Seca today and the starter cranking speed is 312 rpm verified by using the pick-up coil output captured on the oscilloscope. Interesting to note that it did not change with plugs in or out, so the drag of the engine compression did not slow the starter.

I also made a video of it here:



You can compare the measured RPM taken with the oscilloscope and confirm fairly closely with the video. To be more accurate a higher FPS rate is needed rather than the 30 FPS that was used. Slowing the video seems to help some, but still a higher FPS rate would produce more accurate results.

Open the video in YouTube and stop the video at approximately 4 seconds, then advance frame by frame with the "." and count the number of clicks between each spark. It averages between 5 and 6. Use the "," to step backwards.

Using 5.5 as the average and a FPS rate of 30 then:

1 frame = .033 seconds X 5.5 frames = .1833 seconds

1/.1833 = 5.45 cycles per second X 60 = 327 RPM.

For your slow motion video:

.033 X 38 = 1.28 - then 1/4 speed so 1.28/4= .32 seconds

1/.32 = 3.125 cycles per second X 60 = 187 RPM.

What does it all mean? If the starters are similar and you had a fully charged battery when the video was taken then it could be firing every other cycle instead of once per revolution. Something that would be very apparent using the scope.

Note you can also verify the RPM of the starter cranking speed with a frequency meter, which is common on many DMM's today. The cheap meter that I have measured 5.4 Hz (5.4 X 60 = 324RPM) at the pick-up, which is right in line with the other measurements. With the single pick-up you have it should double, so actual cranking RPM would be 1/2 measured frequency X 60.

Options: Replace the TCI using the shotgun approach (I saw the one on Ebay and it is expensive) or find a another bike or member somewhere to test the one you have.

Personally, I would want to solve the starter issue first just to be sure it is not the worst case scenario; a mechanical failure of the starter clutch, which I believe is just like the XJ and would require splitting the cases. Could it be electrical, I won't say no unequivocally as it does get complicated when changing between the two bikes, however it is hard to see how a harness electrical system that was working and has only been modified for the TCI and Regulator could cause the issue.

 

Oh man, eventful morning.

Rooster53, to answer your previous questions: the battery has been charged very recently, and I always rotate between three sets of new-ish spark plugs, with a good cleaning with brake cleaner between troubleshooting sessions.

So I had an idea to assess the timing: shoot 60fps videos of 1) piston #1 through the spark plug hole, 2) spark plugs 1&2 firing outside the engine, and 3) spark plugs 3&4 firing outside the engine.

Results were the same in each case:
1), piston #1 comes up to TDC every 9-10 frames, so it's cranking at ~379rpm (60/9.5*60)
2) Spark plugs 1 & 2 fire every 4-5 frames (each plug fires every 9-10 frames, matching the engine RPM)
3) Same for plugs 3 & 4

And then the Incident happened - the starter solenoid got stuck and the starter kept cranking even with the kill switch to OFF and the ignition turned off. I didn't have an allen key to disconnect the battery so I had to run upstairs to my storage locker to grab one... with all this excitement, I forgot my keys inside the storage locker area, which meant I was essentially locked out of the building. Had to run outside through an emergency exit and ask the building concierge to escort me back to the bike. At that point I was half-expecting to come back to a burning inferno, but no. The battery was depleted and both the starter motor and battery were hot to the touch. Guessing I need a new starter motor.

I need to mention that my starter solenoid is exactly one day old - I replaced it yesterday with a brand new aftermarket one to eliminate it as a variable. I'll test it outside the bike once the battery is recharged. Assuming that the battery itself isn't shot.

Note to self - always keep Allen keys nearby.

Good Lord.

 

Interesting. I briefly cranked the engine with all four plugs out and it cranked a lot faster than it did with two plugs in and two out.

 

Vids of tests 1-3 and The Incident

Test 1


Test 2


Test 3 & The Incident

 

Damn Matt - have to admit that was a rather calm WTF? during The Incident.
Truth be told I had to laugh watching the video knowing that you were running through/ around the building in a panic at the end of it....

Laughing WITH you - not AT you.

 

Glad I can give back to the community somehow. While in panic mode I briefly wondered whether this was the day I would end up on Liveleak.

 

At least you are young and did not physically hurt yourself. I would have probably tripped over something or pulled a muscle somehow in all the panic.

So probably attributed to cheap aftermarket part and welding the high current contacts closed because of poor mating when closed causing excessive heat. It sure didn't look like you overstressed it by excessive cranking. It's hard to buy OEM all the time, especially when "sometimes" the less expensive aftermarket parts are actually just a good..

Was that evaluated on your laptop using a video program? I mentioned the 60 fps would be more accurate, but I am seeing inconsistencies on YouTube when stepping through frame by frame. I need to think about that a bit more as to what are the consequences of reformatting from 60 fps to 30 fps on YouTube; some imaging might be lost. Note: you can verify that by the fact it takes 30 clicks to advance the video 1 second.

That is what I thought to based on sound, but the output on the scope taken from the pick-up contradicted that and the engine RPM was virtually the same.

 

Edit - see post #75. You're right, spark on plugs 3 & 4 is inconsistent when 1 & 2 are in the engine.

 

Ha! You're right again. I just checked that vid and sparks are spaced the same despite the faster sound... and there doesn't seem to be a Youtube glitch on this one:

 

Scratch that, I was looking at the wrong video on my computer. The Test 3 + Incident vid on my computer looks the same as it does on Youtube, with inconsistent spark, anywhere from 2 to 5 frames apart. Oooooh.

(What the hell?)

 

So some other things that may not have been covered

Did you ever do an ohm check on the pick-up coil - 81-121 ohms per the Haynes manual and does not connect to chassis?

Have you had the stator cover off by chance to be sure nothing is stuck to the outside of the rotor magnet that might false trigger the pick-up?

Hopefully it really is saying something, but with all the changes in video capture speeds and reformatting it is getting confusing. I should have just suggested 30 fps to duplicate what I had done, which seemed to pan out.

The scope is still a possibility capturing the waveform with just the starter spinning. I can duplicate that effort just to be sure. I know from last night the pick-up output voltage is considerably lower at cranking speeds, so trigger on the scope is a bit more touchy.

And what about the TCI you have? Did it get transferred with the engine swap or did you have to source one on your own?

 

Pickup coil tested smack in the middle of that range - 99 ohms.

TCI is original to the engine.

 

Out of curiosity, I opened up the cheap aftermarket starter solenoid - everything in there looks as good as new. The contacts were not welded together. It does look cheaply made though.

 

Just saw this. Good thinking. I'll take a look inside the cover.

What do you mean by "connect to chassis"? A short?

 

The pick-up coils should be isolated from chassis, so yes if one wire was pinched or chafed somewhere it could find chassis. You would want to check it with the connector removed from the TCI as the TCI typically ties the low to battery return. It should read open to chassis.

I was just about to post this quick video with the thought of your earlier post of the piston. Note the plug sparks every time the piston goes up. Doesn't really matter what RPM it is except the camera frame rate must be fast enough to capture, which 30 FPS at starter speeds seems to be fine. Had to use my head to hit the start button and the plug is attached with a twist tie.

Yes, just a thought since the rotor is a strong magnet if anything got stuck on the outside where it would pass by the pick-up it could upset the timing on the spark.

And just a reminder with those nice new coils make sure you always have them connected to a plug and the plug is grounded to protect the coil when checking spark.

 

Just to clarify, that means it is the period correct TCI designed for the single pick-up coil?

 

Yes. TID14-79 3LT, which was only used for the 89 and 90 Radian with the single pickup coil.

BTW I just got a new one this morning on eBay. Guy listed it at $100, I offered $60 and he came back with $80. Deal.

Which means I can pry mine open to look at what's inside. I might then send it off to Carmo USA to have it tested.

 

That was a good deal for the two year only model. Hopefully, you can try it soon excepting the "incident", which I suspect has set you back with at least a battery and maybe a starter.

 

Battery seems ok. It's an AGM and it read 11.83v after it cooled down. It took 11amps back in on the charger.

But yeah, I need to source a starter as well as new mounting bolts. The hack mechanic who swapped the engine needlessly replaced good OEM bolts with allen head stuff, cause he's too lazy to catalogue the bolts he takes off. My theory is that his bolts ended up misaligning the starter a bit.

 

Scored a starter + bolts from the same guy - he didn't have it listed but I asked and he pulled the starter off the same bike. $65. Didn't do too bad here either.

 

Not much to report other than I'm waiting on parts. I'll have everything by the middle of next week.

Oh - I'd emailed a couple of local salvage yards looking for a starter last week. One guy got back to me last night saying that the only starter he has is attached to a complete FJ600... he added that he was closing up shop in 3 weeks and that he could sell me the entire bike for 350 bucks.

I have no place to store it, yet I'm still considering it. A full donor bike for 350 bucks. Damn. Will go take a look at it tomorrow.

 

Buy it then decide which bike will become the donor!?

 

BOOYA!

I'll be back later with all the gruesome details, but suffice it to say that the "mechanic" I hired to swap the engine is off my Christmas card list.

Thanks so much for everyone's help, and special thanks to Rooster53 for his selfless dedication to this thread. You sir, are a superstar.

Note for future thread visitors: you can in fact put a late-model Radian engine into an early-model XJ600/Fj600. All you need is the Radian TCI and rectifier, then you need to rearrange the TCI connector wiring to match the different pinout. That is it.

 

Haha... "easy" fix. Lolz

 

So cool to see it running!

 

What a machine.

 

Happy days - well done. So that's Canada huh? Looks nice.

 

If that's Toronto, you're looking at one of Canada's great cities. What's really special about Canada is all the space in between, especially when on a motorcycle. Many, many kilometers of open roads.

 

[

QUOTE="a100man, post: 581806, member: 14144"]Happy days - well done. So that's Canada huh? Looks nice.[/QUOTE]
Just like in the USA.... except we have miles--- and miles are longer than kilometers.... lol

 

But we've got many more kms than you've got miles! Unfortunately, many kms have no roads to go with them.

On an aside: how related is a YZF to a FZ to an XJ? Guy at work is selling his mint YZF, and I'm curious. Too much fairing for the wife to allow it in the garage, but I could pull it off...
"Look honey, I got a naked bike."
Several months later: "Look honey, I found this perfect fairing for the naked bike in the garage!"

 

YZF600 aka ' Thundercat' ? Completely different.. While the FZ 600 shared a similar motor (to XJ550) that was replaced by the FZR and then the YZF so it's two generations removed and I would guess has absolutely no interchangeable parts. The thundercat does have the same motor as the FZS600 though and the famous 'blue spot' calipers