new battery or something more serious

you are looking for the seal that fits the shaft that drives the rotor

check this page this may be it shaft part #17 oil seal part #21

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/yamaha/motorcycle/1982/xj650rj/starter-clutch


OIL SEAL
93102-25218-00

 

Thanks XJ
Just ordered one in UK (93102-25218-00 Original Yamaha)
Should get it by Wed/Thurs
Thank You for your help!

Regards.

 

measure the parts and go here
https://www.mcmaster.com/oil-seals
maybe your lucky and it's a standard size

 

Installed the new oil seal, oil nozzle and housing '0' rings, and reassembled charging system.
Pulled the plugs, and checked starter motor turning over - sweet! (I am afraid to start the machine, with no exhaust system installed)
Cleaned the rotor and the stator meticulously again, before reinstalling.
Did copper ring test on face of the rotor, and getting readings of .001 to .038 ohms. (the ohms setting at 200 always displays '1.' before I attach terminals to anything to do a reading)

Regards.

 

The only trouble you'll cause from starting the bike without the exhaust installed is with the neighbors.

 

The copper ring test? - ignition on or off?
Regards.

 

Off.

 

Just got my bike back from fabricators with new bespoke stainless steel headers and collector box.
Bye-bye old boxes, and having to replace them, expensively, and to replacing headers every 2 years! (£400.00 GB Sterling)
Shall return to charging tests next week, but have noticed improvement already
Regards.
Pics enclosed.

 

I envy the plethora of "cottage-industry" motorcycle shops you have in the U.K.

 

That exhaust looks amazing!

 

Exhaust looks great. Is your oil filter case on 90 degrees out? Fins on case are nearly horizontal.

 

I don't know Franz
Changed oil and filter a couple of years ago.
Should the fins be vertical?
Regards

 

If you look at the periphery of the oil filter housing there is a small lug that locates on a groove in the crankcase. Check the 12 oclock position on the crankcase. I am sure all XJ's have the oil filter housing fins vertical on the engine.

 

Ok I'll check that one out
Thanks Franz

 

Re-positioned the oil filter cover to cooling fins 'vertical'.
Charging issue: Having replaced the rectifier, stator, and alternator housing seals, (and scrutinously cleaned all parts) I tested the battery before I set out on a very short run of 2 miles....
Engine off, light off: 12.41v......2miles run with light on and on return: 12.67v (engine off, light off) So charged up battery 0.26v on only a 2-mile run (theoretically this will now charge up to 1v on a 10-mile run?)
Idling engine battery test: 2000rpm: 14.78.........4000rpm: 14.80v
It has been reported that these values are a bit high, but if you look at the stats for a GEL battery, it says that it charges slightly higher than a lead acid one (especially good for winter starts, apparently...?)
I'll keep my eye on it, but I think the charging issue has been resolved now, unless anyone has any evidence to the contrary.....?

Thanks for all your help and contributions.
Kind regards
D. Grantham

 

Hi again.
Happy Christmas to all XJ members!
Has anyone with an XJ650 RJ Seca had electrical problems with the running of their machine in the rain?
I get firing intermittence, (ie, it sounds like one or two cylinders are not firing, and then they are again?) It can be very frustrating. It is also hard to start.
NB: This only happens when running the machine when raining and very wet.
If anyone has, and has sourced and resolved the problem, could they please advise me and I can follow their example?!
Kind regards.
Dale Grantham

 

sounds like you have cracked ignition coils or wires

in the dark when dry get a spray bottle and spray water on coils you may see arcing and replicate problem

wires can be cut back and spliced new wires on with nkg splices and coils sealed with epoxy or rtv

 

Still won't start after cleaning and renewing coil to cap connections
Turns over and over and over, until battery going flat. (only pressed starter 3 secs intermittently)
There seems to be no spark at all #4 cylinder, strong spark on #1, weak spark on #'s 2 and 3.
It did not fire ONCE, in 100's of turning the engine over.
There is fuel at 4, not sure about 3, and fuel at 1, not sure about 2.
Going to try again today. This has happened before, and can't remember how it got resolved?
Once it starts, it runs ok (in drier weather)
Big backfire, which blew out my left side silencer repair wad! Another repair!
Any other ideas, why it won't start please?
Can't do the checks suggested by xj550, cos can't get it started now..?

Regards.

 

How long was it in the shop for? I wonder if the floats are stuck and need a little bump to get the fuel going again? If you have spark issues not too sure about that battery? Just read through your post and I see you have changed some of the charging system but have you changed out the old battery? Getting a new battery and maybe even a gel battery with a little more CCA to help start the bike. If that does nothing for your starting issues and the spark is still weak, you might have to so more testing on the coil packs and clean up more wiring.

 

Just repaired all the holes in the silencers, put back on machine. (I have got some new stainless steel ones on order, but the guy is fully booked until mid-Jan, when he is going to ring with a date to bring the 'bike over to fit them custom) They are both full of big holes, which I have just been custom-repairing, to keep the noise down as much as possible!
Tried to start, turned over and over, smell of petrol. Wouldn't start, big backfire again, and blew out all my recent repairs
Fired briefly, but then just turning over and over again until another backfire.
Does there always need to be a small 'breather' hole in the silencer? (the one that I presume is/was there, to drain condensation on initial start?)
Eventually, the starter button stuck 'on', and couldn't turn it off until battery was too flat to turn motor over!
Looked at petrol petcock, but when I took hose off, (in 'On' position), the fuel was not running out, so presume that is still working ok? (the diaphragm inside etc.)
I really am running out of ideas, as to what is causing this.
My main theory is that the two 'starter' cylinders (is it 1 and 3?), may not be getting enough fuel/spark to start, and pressure is building up, with the motor turning over and over, and that is causing the backfires? (there is plenty of fuel in the tank)
The fuel enrichment circuit has not been working too good the past couple of months, and I had that down as a job in the Spring to do. It did start the machine though, up until now, when engaged.
Help please, I am getting very frustrated with this....

Kind regards.

 

Hi Timbox
Just posted, and read your thread after. The charging system is/was working ok, and the battery charges up fully, and really turns the motor over well. It is a gel battery. I am currently recharging, (read latest thread!), and shall check spark again when dark enough outside, and report back. As I have reiterated, this has happened before in the past.

 

try a boost from your car battery and fresh plugs.
Sometimes the battery will turn the motor over but have nothing left for the ignition.

 

any fuel that gets past the cylinders un burnt will cause a back fire.
starter cylinders?

sounds like your carbs are flooding.
float valve assembly sticking open.

are all your spark plugs getting wet?

if you have spark on 1 you should have spark on 4.
ohm out your sparkplug caps see if they are in spec.

yamaha coils give a weak spark

so you may have a bad sparkplug cap or the wire has failed on 4

 

XJ550: In answer to your thread: Yes, all my plugs are wet. Just been down and checked the spark across all 4 plugs, with plugs out of cylinder attached to coil suppressor caps, now battery recharged, and there is a pulsing bright, but weakish (see your thread above) spark twice, on every turn over of the engine, using turn on button to turn the motor over. This is the case for all four spark plugs. So no sparking issue is at fault, I don't think.
However, when I removed the spark plugs initially to do this test, everyone was wet-through with fuel, and I hadn't touched the machine for four hours?!
Tried to start again, at first, without fuel enrichment circuit on - Nothing. Tried with fuel enrichment circuit on - still nothing. Was frequently trying different positions on the turn screw at back of carbs, to try and get something, but still nothing.
I've deduced that the fuel is somehow not the right mixture, so can't ignite and is flooding the cylinder somehow, and perhaps that's why it won't start?
Stuck float? I've tried knocking with a rubber mallet, on each carb body, does draining the carb cylinders have a beneficial effect whilst knocking on the carb cylinders afterwards?
Open to any other analysis, if anyone has had this issue.....?
Regards.

 

if you backed the idle (throttle stop )screw out to far this would close the butterflies and not let as much air through the carbs. all carbs which would cut down on air flow giving you a rich mixture making for a hard start.

check oil level see if fuel has flooded the oil . if you have clear hose or fuel filter and float valves are not closing fuel line will go empty.
if spark plugs are all carboned up and or wet it will be a hard start.

I would start by removing carbs and bench syncing them. then I would check for leaks out of bike by hooking a fuel supply to carbs to see if there is any leaks or overflow..
check fuel levels.

it sounds like you have spark , fuel, so air flow may be the issue which would be corrected with the bench sync

 

Just tried to start again, after recharging overnight, turned up screw, slight fire.....then nothing, nothing.....
Decided to take your advice xj and take carbs off and rebench-sync.
When I took carbs, off and looked at butterflies, all four were CLOSED SHUT TIGHT, and I thought I had opened them up?!
I only bench-synced about 4 months ago, when got new manifold boots, but I had to turn the screw 3 full times before the butterflies opened (just now)
I have to turn the screw OUT, to maintain a 1050-1100 idle, otherwise it's at 13 - 1400 and it is a very fine line between 1050-1100 idle, and it just cutting out through lack of air.
Shall bench-sync again, reinstall, and try to start again. It must be this that is the issue(?)
Report back when I have done all this.

Regards.

 

Here is a link for how to do a good bench sync.
https://xjbikes.com/forums/threads/how-to-bench-synch-your-carbs.6366/

 

Just had the carbs off, re bench sync. Each butterfly one thickness of a paperclip wire, just gripping.
Reinstalled, battery charged up fully - press starter, choke on, choke off, still nothing, just turns over and over.....
What can this be? Did not fire once.

Regards.

 

Would the couple of large backfires, earlier have done anything to the mixture settings?

 

Will check battery for outage, when get home again tonight (when fully recharged) and whilst turning over motor.
It could well be this 5-6 years old battery has weakened with all the recharges I've done over the past year, with the electrical charging issues I've had?
Can't think of anything else unless I've done something wrong with the bench sync?
Regards.

 

Are the plugs wet after all that starter motor turning?....if so fuel is good, spark....may be weak.....if plugs are not wet then possibly two problems

if plugs are wet no matter HOW good you think your battery may be....jump it from your car/truck.....just to get an initial fire.....again, 3 second bursts on button....then wait, repeat as often as you need to......you could also remove plugs, one at a time, and using your car battery check to see how 'fat' the spark is ?...do this for all 4?

 

Got back from work tonight.

Charger said 14.3v charged up. Voltmeter said battery was 13.4v. Perhaps the battery is only capable of charging up to this amount now?
Cannot jump start the bike as got no car or van, no slope, and too heavy for me to push to bump start.
Instead, I rocked the machine, whilst in gear with clutch in and out, to turn the motor over a few times.
Then tried the push start button, with choke on. Fired about 4 times then nothing again.
Tried this about 6 times, 3-6 second bursts, with 1 minute intervals, Nothing.
Tried opening up the butterflies a bit for more air, still nothing.
Choke on, nothing, choke off, nothing. Alternate throttle open a bit, then gradually close off knob, still nothing.
Took plugs off, one at a time - all plugs wet with fuel. Dried them, put them back in and tried to start again, not a thing.
Took each one out individually and tested for spark - each one has what I have experienced in the past to be enough of a spark to start the machine(?)
I don't know how to analyse how 'fat' a spark is, but it was very frequent and bright as the motor turned over, on EVERY plug.
Machine is back on charge now overnight, so any other advice greatly appreciated. A new battery? Why is it not igniting?

Thank you for all your input so far...
Regards.

 

do a voltage drop test.
meter on battery see what voltage drops to when you press starter button.
if it goes below 10 volts your battery is done
tci stops firing at just under 10 volts and will sometimes fire when starter button is released

 

Agreed....XJ's can be VERY particular...unless hot, to battery voltage, even when 'new' these things....though immensely 'un-burstable' had quite weak electrical systems ....

If you can borrow a van/car/truck, I'll bet she'll start......

 

No one has played around with the timing one the bike right? If you take the plugs out and can see that on TDC or close to it there is spark on the compression stroke. I think he said in the beginning that the bike would run but would only run for a while. Just want to make sure we are not missing something simple. As was stated many times, these bikes do have weak electrical systems have to have great batteries. I normally run a 220 CCA in mine.

 

No-one has played around with timing.
Just been down to machine after charging overnight. Charger was reading charged up to 14.4v. Pressed start button, (without FEC on) and an almighty rat-a-tat explosion as engine immediately burst into life, without silencers on! Turned off quickly! Next door neighbour stuck their head out the bedroom window and said 'Did I just hear it start?' LOL!
I had turned the screw in considerably last night in an attempt to add air to the mixture by opening up the butterflies.
Turned the knob down a revolution, and tried again (without choke on again)....
Started again. Turned off quickly.
Turned down adjustment some more, started again. (too high revs still)
Turned down a little more, pressed button and would not start.
Decided to fit repaired-holes silencers, and try again....(I have been afraid of fitting them, in case of backfire again, when it blows all the repairs out!)
Will not start again now. Put voltmeter across battery whilst pressing starter and reads 10.17v. Without pressing starter reads 12.13v.
Tried with choke on again, no luck. Perhaps those couple of 'starts' without choke on, used up all residual fuel in cylinders, and can't start cos of no choke on?
OR, the battery, with the turning over, has drained enough for it not to produce enough spark again? New battery?
I shall charge up again to what it can, try and start again and report back.....

Any deductions from this..?

Regards, and
A Happy New Year!

 

It started again, after charging for only 15 minutes.
Turned knob out some more and let it idle till op. temp. and set to 1100, let run for 10 minutes.
Turned off for 5 mins. started again after a few turns.
Sending for new gel battery, with at least 220 CCA. (this one has served me for 6+ years!)
I still have to check if it will start after going cold (with battery charged up)
Will report back if anymore problems.

Thank you all, for all your help!
Very appreciated.

Dale Grantham

 

Probably battery....when my XJ's are/were cold.....even back in the late 80's when CONSIDERABLY newer, they were sometimes very difficult to a first start....not saying that 7/10 they WON't start when cold...they should, but add in cold/moisture, weak battery......38 year old wiring..perhaps ( likely) you have already fouled the plugs with constant starter turning...now that notoriously weak XJ spark is....well, just TOO weak for that initial under compression fire.......honestly, sometimes I've wondered if these things dont need glow plugs..lol, they can certainly act like diesels.......when cold !!

I also tried GPz900R coils on mine, and silicone leads......but can't say that make a huge difference......

( OK.......and dont laff.....but back in about 1987 I was temporarily between homes, me and the ex were living with my old dad for a while...I was new to couriering, XJ was notoriously tricky in a ( wet, cold) UK Winter.....my old dad would sometimes go outside in his jammies ( no garage) and use my ex's hair dryer on the plugs, coil area..........guess what......she almost ALWAYS bloody started, after that!!! < which probably means they are susceptible to ANY moisture around the plugs, coil, HT lead area....even though I would often soak those areas in WD40...the bloody hair dryer trick worked 99/100 times!! )

 

LOL kerrisk, but not lol!

On very cold mornings when it wouldn't start (my bike is kept in concertina-type, fold over framed canvas cover) I have often resorted to removing my plugs, and putting them in an Halogen oven, for 10 mins till they're burning hot to hold, reinserting them, and start first time! And the hairdryer! ~And yes, the WD40.
You're right about the playing up when it's very damp also.
I have been told by people on the site, that you must always initial start with the choke (Sorry, Fuel Enrichment Circuit)! from cold though, and as long as your mixture/bench sync is ok, it will start more easily?
Just sent for a battery with 12V, 14aH, and a 320 CCA.
That should do the trick.....

Regards.

 

Just out of interest what battery did you get??

Ahh, a Notts lad, used to do the Nottingham Goose fair motorcycle rally...back in the late 70's, early 80's....lost the keys to my BRAND new 1979 GS750 Suzy there once...and NOT wanting to hotwire it...my mate rode back to Manc....spare keys then back to the Rally site !!

 

enrichment circuit but it still says choke on the control seen a manual refer to it as starter lever

 

I can't remember that rally kerrisk, still I didn't have a bike then. The only times I went down to the site was either when the ' Fair was on, or the Rock n Reggae festival every summer. That's long-since gone, in the mid 90's was the last one I can remember.
Did a (successful) vac sync today and when removing tank, discovered a very slight fuel leak from petcock in the 'on' or 'reserve' position. This has happened before post-backfire, especially if one of the cylinders involved in the backfire, was the #3. #3 is the one with the vacuum line linked up to petcock on my bike.
Usually, it just pours out, and the only way to resolve, is the take the petcock apart and either turn the diaphragm back the 'right way', from inside out(!), or completely replace it because it is knackered beyond repair. Anyone else had this issue?
It's not a big problem, and I can still start the bike, til I've got time to drain the tank (just filled up), and take a look at it.
This could be the reason why the bike was even harder to start (after backfire) cos fuel trickling down into carbs, filling them up and too rich when initially turning over to start, AND with the fuel enrichment circuit on!
I get round this at the moment, by just turning the idle control knob clockwise 'in' to open up the butterflies and let more air in for initial start (without FEC on).
The battery is charging up to about 13.4v, and although it's starting almost immediately, I've still sent for another one because I don't think it's at it's best after about 6 years...
Oh yes, the battery I've sent for is a Dynavolt, YTX14-BS Gel, High Cranking Power, 320 CCA. (Ebay, £37, including postage in UK)
I need my bike to be roadworthy because I'm waiting for a call from a specialized fabricator who makes custom stainless silencers, and he is to make me two for £200!
Mine are held together only by steel wool swab patches soaked in cylinder joint compound, and a lot of hope! They are WORKING tho - Lol, and no exhaust leaks hardly (unless I get another backfire again!)
The new ones won't be exactly the same as the stock ones on mine, but what a bargain!
This guy is based in Bilsthorpe, near Newark, and I've got to get the machine over to him and leave it with him whilst he makes them to measure.
Shows how popular he is, because he was booked up from September to this month, and he could be ringing me any time soon...…
Anyway I'll update everyone about that when it has happened....

Kind regards.

 

Just another catch-up (no reply to last thread)
This is the new battery I have just received. (attached)

Regards.
Regards.

 

I think I have that problem with my Xj 550 maxim, I’ve noticed this when I press the starter button it cranks but never start, I check the sparks by removing the caps and they look weak like red and barely can see them, only when I stop pressing the button suddenly one single strong spark appears. It’s very weird. Because I have a brand new battery fully charged. Anyone could tell me what could be happening?
Regards.

 

you get a voltage spike when you let off the starter button t.hats why you get a better spark.

have you ohmed out your ignition coils? you could have bad caps.

hook a meter to your battery and see what the voltage drops to if it gets to low your spark fades and may stop. tci needs 10 volts to work.

you will have to keep the battery charged the 550 spins well even with battery under 10 volts.

even new batterys can be bad.

it could also be a failing starter drawing too much current.

it would be better to start a thread on your bike it will make helping you easier
XJ550 models:

Pick-up coils:
650 ohms +/- 20% = 520 ohms to 780 ohms acceptable range


Ignition Coils:

Primary side (input from main wiring harness):
2.5 ohms +/- 10% = 2.25 ohms - 2.75 ohms acceptable range

Secondary side (spark plug wires, without their end caps):
11K ohms +/- 20% = 8,800 ohms - 13,200 ohms acceptable range


Spark plug caps:
10K +/- 20% = 8,000 to 12,000 ohms per cap acceptable range

Spark plugs:
0 ohms per plug

 

Hello! thanks for the feedback.

Yes I did check the pick up coils and ingition coils resistance, everything is in spec except for one bad ignition coil that has an OL on the multimetter at the secondary coil. I cut a little piece of wire to make sure it make good contact and still the same.

It seems like my bike doesn´t have the original pick up coils because they measure 330 ohms each, and they don't look like the pictures of the original coils. the odd part is that the bike was running perfectly like that before I tooked apart for chroming all the chromable parts.

I let the bike dissasembled in the garage for like 6 months until now.

I check the battery while cranking the voltage drops to 11 volts, it stays very strong.

The spark plug caps are all between 5k ohms.

I´m worried about getting a new pair of ignition coils and the bike could not start yet.

 

To me that wheel with the 19mm wrench fitting on it looks to be interesting. Looks like it has had a hard life. Most of those plates are preteen as they are under a cover for the majority of their lives. I hope it was not bent or that it out of measurement from the pickup? This is IMHO only. Hope you get it settled.

 

They are mostly pre teen?? yes, but if you go down on the ignition pickup side, without crash bars....a lot of damage can ensue.....I've done it, and immediately after fixing all the mess, ordered crash bars, lol !!