Politics - I apologize

Dear god... Gratuitous bold, italic, and all caps...

This is the online equivalent of something written in crayon on a notepad. I can't take this seriously. You'd think a finance blogger would be better at writing.

Plus, I am somewhat biased against finance people right now. There is a very real chance that one of them is the reason my dad is currently in his third week of hospitalization with Covid.

See, he was in this trading group with a bunch of guys like that. I've seen their FB conversations. "Masks don't work", "it's just a flu", "herd immunity". And they had meetups.


Now, two things out of that scribble I would like to address:

People seriously need to stop concentrating on that. Death is not the only negative consequence of it.

My mom has recovered, but is barely walking and we are looking at remodeling the house so she can avoid the basement because she can't really do stairs. I have middle-aged fairly healthy friends who cant ride a bicycle any more, or do a lot of other stuff they could. Some have short term memory loss.

Polio had a pretty low death rate, too. It's what happened to people who didn't die that made it a problem.

So, this guy can take his idea of getting people infected to make them immune, fold it eight ways, and stick it where the sun don't shine.

There is all the evidence they work. Surgeons have been wearing them for 193 years to prevent passing infections to patients. We know that works. The 1918 flu pandemic also shows they work. Claiming there is no evidence is absurd. It seriously is one of the most proven things in medicine.

There is a simple test you can to at home. Talk at a clean mirror with a mask and without, and see how much spit collects on it.

Thing is, they work if everyone wears them. And given the numbers of people I see who either don't wear them at all, or stick their noses out, or do something else stupid with them, it's definitely not the case.

 

You'd have to go back and read earlier articles, all of them referenced and/or verified, there is simply too much there to go back and regurgitate here.

You know, I have to admit, I'm kinda "cheating" in this entire process (mainly because I'm sort of time-constrained in various ways) as I have the advantage of getting "one side of the story" easily; that is the standard explanations given seemingly everywhere, by everybody, on every news broadcast, ever newspaper article, etc. It's the counter-arguments and counter-explanations that don't make the light of day very often, and it is in those very counter-points where some truth may be found.....if that is of any interest. Einstein was a patent office CLERK, after all......I mean, what did he know about the nature of the universe?.....but at least he had the common sense and wisdom to recognize that "no amount of experimental results could ever prove his theories to be right, and to the contrary, all it would take is one single experiment to prove his theories wrong."

P.S. PCR tests are what are used most commonly for testing, and are seemingly considered the "gold standard" around the world for diagnosis.....and it just might be wise to explore whether that type of testing is valid, whether it is useful / accurate in this type of environment, what are the drawbacks / downsides to reliance on that method, can it be compromised or the results be mis-interpreted? I think that is Skepticism 101, or, just basic scientific methodology. If you aren't interested in knowing about such things, then that's okay, but I'm a bit quirky in that regard, and think that important questions need serious (rather than emotional) answers.

Oh contraire, Pierre!

https://www.realclearinvestigations..._georgias_vote-counting_software__125995.html

https://nationalfile.com/georgia-ex...ominion-voting-madness-leads-to-lame-recount/

"Raffensperger, a Republican, said in announcing the recount, “This will help build confidence. It will be an audit, a recount and a re-canvas all at once.” He said all of the 159 counties in Georgia execute the hand recount and that it should be completed by the deadline for the state to certify the election results, November 20, 2020.

But reports are coming out of vote tabulating centers that the recount effort is nothing more than a duplicate of the initial process which would effectively do little to audit the process.

....the Georgia recount is a farce. They are using one observer for ten teams, which means the observers are only able to watch 10% of the action. They aren’t checking signatures or matching absentee votes with addresses. Essentially, it is a pure recount that will re-tabulate the bad ballots.

The management of Georgia elections has become an embarrassment for our state,” Perdue and Loeffler said in a statement. “We believe when there are failures, they need to be called out – even when it’s in your own party.”

and

https://www.news.com.au/world/north...g/news-story/19176f5113512210517c82debe684392

“No one disputes that Fulton County elections officials falsely announced that the counting of ballots would stop at 10.30pm. No one disputes that Fulton County elected officials unlawfully resumed the counting of ballots after our observers left the centre.”

 

Are you sure?

https://www.technocracy.news/masks-are-neither-effective-nor-safe-a-summary-of-the-science/

I'll save you the laborious reading:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558

"Statistical analysis of the extracted data revealed no statistically significant association between mask usage and the incidence of surgical site infection. The study concluded that ‘it is unclear whether the wearing of surgical facemasks by members of the surgical team has any impact on surgical wound infection rates for patients undergoing clean surgery".

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.10.1.34

"This 1920 analysis of cloth mask use during the 1918 pandemic examines the failure of masks to impede or stop flu transmission at that time, and concluded that the number of layers of fabric required to prevent pathogen penetration would have required a suffocating number of layers, and could not be used for that reason, as well as the problem of leakage vents around the edges of cloth masks. "



The New England Journal of Medicine editorial on the topic of mask use versus Covid-19 assesses the matter as follows:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

“We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 20 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.”

"It is also clear that masks serve symbolic roles. Masks are not only tools, they are also talismans that may help increase health care workers’ perceived sense of safety, well-being, and trust in their hospitals. Although such reactions may not be strictly logical, we are all subject to fear and anxiety, especially during times of crisis. One might argue that fear and anxiety are better countered with data and education than with a marginally beneficial mask, particularly in light of the worldwide mask shortage, but it is difficult to get clinicians to hear this message in the heat of the current crisis."


It's the 21st century, and we're still counting on carrying (wearing) the modern equivalent of a "lucky rabbit's foot" as a method of disease management.

 

J my thoughts and prayers that your dad fully recovers

 

Thanks for posting an article that supports what I said, it is good we can agree:

“It’s a good first step,” Favorito said. “A recount will be able to determine if there was electronic vote fraud.”

Well now national rifle association, I love my guns but we know this is not a highly trusted source - surely you can do better

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-file/

Just to note this excerpt from the NRA article since you quoted a good bit from it:

Molly McCann, who is of counsel to Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn’s attorney Sidney Powell, tweeted out, “Attention, Georgia. The Georgia Republican leaders are selling us out."
Sidney Powell is supporting the "Hammer Scorecard" vote counting theft that was disputed by and I will remind you by:

Christopher C. Krebs is the first and current Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency in the United States Department of Homeland Security, serving since November 2018 appointed by President Trump. I am still waiting for you to reply to that subject, as you posted the video, I responded with what I thought was a factual post and .....crickets.

Molly McCann was on Fox News with Martha MacCallum and promoted why we shouldn’t wear masks – I wonder with hind sight if they both regret encouraging people in that direction? More on that to follow.

And also this text you quoted from the NRA article:

Raffensperger, a Republican, said in announcing the recount, “This will help build confidence. It will be an audit, a recount and a re-canvas all at once.” He said all of the 159 counties in Georgia execute the hand recount and that it should be completed by the deadline for the state to certify the election results, November 20, 2020…..

Reffensperger has suddenly become a never Trumper because it just can’t be true that Trump actually got less votes in Georgia.

Oh, and then there is this:

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

·

Nov 26, 2018

Brad Raffensperger will be a fantastic Secretary of State for Georgia - will work closely with

@BrianKempGA

. It is really important that you get out and vote for Brad - early voting....

This link is even stranger when debating an issue. Now normally you wouldn't think someone would post something as supporting evidence of fact when the very article is linked with a fact check disputing the claims in the article.

“In Georgia, a pipe burst in a far away location, totally unrelated to the location of what was happening and they stopped counting for four hours,” he said, in a claim that was disputed by fact checkers."

Now I did hear one other issue on Georgia that I have not researched and it was suggesting a consensus agreement between Stacey Abrams and Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger with subject matter on how signatures would be observed. However, even with this let’s say signatures verification was loosely interpreted, it is still difficult to take the leap to massive voter fraud effecting thousands of votes. And hopefully it a common goal that we truly want each person to cast their vote.

Wow, a real source, and you follow it up with text "the study concluded that it is unclear….. Seems to me they are saying they don't really know. Let's look a bit further and we find this from the same referenced link:

"It is important not to construe an absence of evidence for effectiveness with evidence for the absence of effectiveness. While there is a lack of evidence supporting the effectiveness of facemasks, there is similarly a lack of evidence supporting their ineffectiveness. With the information currently available, it would be imprudent to recommend the removal of facemasks from surgery. Instead, in the medical field where common practice can so easily become dogma, it is necessary to recognise the constant need to maintain a healthy scepticism towards established beliefs and to periodically re-evaluate and critically assess their scientific merit."

They clearly state again they don't know and do not recommend discontinuing their use. As far as Covid this article does not apply.

Well, we can be sure the source falls into the tin foil hat and quackery category:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/technocracy-news/

And, a quick fact check on that source the very first sentence:

“In this meta-analysis, face masks were found to have no detectable effect against transmission of viral infections. (1) It found: “Compared to no masks, there was no reduction of influenza-like illness cases or influenza for masks in the general population, nor in healthcare workers.”

The first cited source (1) is misquoted and ignores the conclusion as well as disregarding the validity of the study stated by the author:

Cited source 1 states:

“This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.”

“Based on observational evidence from the previous SARS epidemic included in the previous version of our Cochrane review we recommend the use of masks combined with other measures.”

Probably other issues like this, but I don’t see any need to bother given the websites credentials.

Another very respected source, however this is just more sloppiness on doing your homework or you are being deceived, or you are purposely trying to distort the facts – I would suspect and hope for the first. First the article you referenced is dated (May 21, 2020). Second, if you bothered to do a search you would find this later article (July 9, 2020):

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836

"We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods."

So another reminder:

But don’t feel too bad, as Marth MacCallum ran the same story citing NEJM on Fox News on May 29th with guest speaker Molly McCann. Does that name sound familiar? Well yes she is quoted in the NRA article and suggesting “the Georgia leaders are selling us out.”

 

Not a particularly trustworthy source. At any rate. They mostly claim that masks aren't 100% effective.

Ok, fine.

Even if it is 5% effective, no mask is 0%. 5>0. The math is simple and obvious.

The bit on dangers of masks is a lot of cherrypicking horseshit. Healthcare workers, pregnant healthcare workers, patients with end-stage renal disease - none of these are valid points of comparison to an average person wearing a mask for a half hour when shopping. Healthcare workers wear them for 8-10-12 hours at a go. Pregnancy is not a concern for a whole lot of people. And if you have end-stage renal disease, you probably shouldn't be walking around anyway.

Great, you found something to confirm your biases. Have you looked at the methodology of this study and what it actually is?

They didn't do any testing. They just looked at results of previous studies. They didn't find evidence for or against, and that is why they specifically say it's unclear.

1. Gauze masks exercise a certain amount of restraining influence on the number of bacteria-laden droplets possible of inhalation. 2. This influence ,is modified by the number of layers and fineness of mesh of the gauze. 3. When a sufficient degree of density in the mask is used to exercise a useful filtering influence, breathing is difficult and leakage takes place around the edge of the mask. 4. This leakage around the edges of the mask and the forcible aspiration of droplet laden air through the mask is sufficient to make the possible reduction in dosage of infection not more than 50 per cent effective.

50>0.


Also, even cheap modern masks are better than gauze. Gauze at this point is a last-ditch field expedient.

Look at the date on that. May 21st.

This was written when there was a shortage of PPE in hospitals, and when we didn't have the data accumulated between then and now.

Right now, we see infection clusters from places like restaurants. You know, those passing interactions.

"Not only tools" means they are tools. This doesn't say they are only talismans.

Again, even 1% protection is more than 0%. I will take all the advantage I can get. Same as how a helmet is not a 100% guarantee, but a +X% to your chances of survival.

Really, the parallels between mask and helmet arguments are rather obvious.

You got a better one that isn't "just let people get sick and live with the consequences", go for it. There is probably a Nobel prize in it.

 

To add what has already been said, what’s wrong with a reminder of the epidemic at hand? You can’t SEE COVID, so masks reminding you that social distancing is still vital, and giving you a heads up at who is lax about the guidance is helpful.

COVID is not like a hurricane or earth quake, something you just endure, it is SPREAD by human behavior. Changing that behavior can reduce the spread. ALL that needs to happen is reducing the R0 below 1, and it’ll fade out. Masks reduce the chance of getting it during short term essential exposure (getting groceries, trash collection, etc) but yes it isn’t a panacea. Only social distancing will work at this point.

mind you that medical professionals not having a 100% guarantee from masks is ALL the reason to social distance NOW. They will be exposed, doing their jobs regardless of the danger. Everyone else should try to make things better for them by reducing the prevalence of infection. A LOT of healthy, health care workers are getting sick and dying right now.

 

Totally agree and it's a metric that would be difficult to track. You can also view this three ways:

1. The cure can’t be worse than the disease creating.......

A - ... excess mitigation through lockdowns that produce excess unemployment

B - ... theA reality that families, particularly the poor with minimal savings struggle to pay rent, put food on the table

C - ... state governments that lose excessive income eventually leading to layoffs of essential services such as police, fire, first responders, and other essential workers

D - ... federal deficits that rise out of control

E - ... excess deaths that occur because of stresses caused by economic losses both on a personal level and infrastructure level


Conversely

2. The disease can’t be worse than the cure creating.......

A - ... lack of mitigation overwhelming hospitals, healthcare staff, and first responders and forcing stay at home orders, or accepting the reality of forcing triage on health care staff to choose who lives or dies

B - ... overwhelmed health care systems and staff that can no longer provide sufficient care to maintain adequate public health for non COVID patients

C - ... public awareness of a large number of cases creating anxiety and stress as large groups practice self mitigation by staying at home

D - ... circumstances for the poor to suffer the most as those in essential services that have no option but to continue to work and risk exposure of themselves and their families and who also have less healthcare options

E - ...an economy that suffers dramatically as people self impose stay at home orders and don’t patronize public places

F - ...excess deaths because of lack of mitigation as well as stresses caused by economic losses both on a personal level and infrastructure level

So what is left, both situations are really unacceptable and it leaves us with what has been preached but not practiced here in the USA, much of which is because it has become a political issue, particularly on wearing a mask.

3. Controlled mitigation using the best currently available tools until vaccines become available or better therapeutics

A - Wash your hands often

B - Practice social distancing avoiding large crowds particularly indoors - And even small gatherings at this time as the spread is virtually out of control

C - Wear a mask when you can't maintain social distancing protocol

- The evidence for wearing a mask is just overwhelming and is supported by the FDA, CDC, HHS, NIAID, Surgeon General and many other respected doctors and health care entities.

And be thankful for the therapeutics developed to date and the dedication of our health care workers, both of which have significantly reduced the number of deaths.

 

And so the comunity slowly begins to fracture.
Not quite in the way that I expected, but still....
Hands up for making this site a refuge from all things political. Send a PM to the boss, and let the cards fall where they may.

 

I think it's a great discussion, I'm learning a lot of new things, Rooster53 has especially has been very helpful. Am I missing something, or is everyone else mad or ????

 

I could be wrong. I only asked to see what everyone else in the community thinks.
Learning is good
Of course what is learned and how it is learned matters.
Practice makes perfect, but incorrect practice makes for being perfectly incorrect.
I'm not inplying that is happening here, but is is worth noting.

 

Motorbikes are good.

When this all started, they implemented social distancing here and got the word out all over the place.
I went to the shops one day, with everyone standing dutifully on the dots laid out on the floor at the checkouts except one older guy who seemed to want to give me a kiss he was standing so close.

I said this to him, 'What about social distancing? Do you want to give me a kiss or something'
He lent right into my face and growled, ' Wear a mask if you don't like it'.

Definitely 2 ways of thinking out there.

Needless to say, I called him a douchebag, the checkout chick chuckled behind her acrylic spit guard screen, and I moved away from the angry old bastard.

 

They are the most socially distanced form of transportation.

 

Here in the state Victoria we have no new covid cases in just over 2 weeks, masks are basically mandatory and social distancing highly recommended. I have no problem with wearing a mask when I'm out 'n about as do the rest af the people I come near, it's the new normal for now. I really don't get what is so onerous about it as well as the hand washing, a small inconvenience for a big result it seems to me.

Happy riding to you all.

 

Bushy,
Victoria... winners!
Good work

 

Option 3 is good then. That and getting the news channels to actually report some news...

 

“If they would rather die,” ..... “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

 

Well, that essentially means nothing. As soon as strict rules are lessened and more businesses open, cases will again be a problem. Masks and distancing cannot cure or eradicate a viral epidemic. Only immunity either natural or by a vaccine will do the trick. Concerning masks, I have to shake my head. I do wear one where needed, such as in a store, but the very act of breathing defeats the purpose. Breath escapes all around the mask where the resistance is minimal. At best it keeps most of your breath from issuing straight forward but does it protect the people to you sides? Breathing in also draws air from the perimeter, but I think less (anecdotally) because the vacuum created does seem to compress the mask against the face. The experts say the virus can suspend in the air for awhile, so where is the protection with a mask, especially the loads of homemade, ineffective versions?

 

Not going to vent too much, by my daughter just tested positive (rapid test) and has taken the PCR text to be sure. So, someone, go ahead and tell me this isn't real.

 

its real and going to be with us for a very long time. you will be getting a covid shot every year with your flu shot.
keeping good thoughts for your family

 

How is she feeling?

 

I think some of the theory is that the virus does not travel alone, rather it travels in droplets that are captured by the mask when you talk or breathe. Logic would suggest that forceful talking through a mask could be an issue, but I don't know if that was mentioned in the studies. Side venting is a recognizable issue and therefore the social distancing is probably the most effective means of mitigation.

Hoping for the best for you and your family - best case a false positive

Yes option 3 is what we hope for, unfortunately here in the states and I think in the UK we have reached levels that may not be contained by anything other than lockdowns.

What do you mean by report some news?

 

She's feeling OK. Went on a 6 mile, full pack ruck with her ROTC class at the end of last week and so she's healthy and fit. I talked to her last night and she's waiting for the PCR test results after the rapid test came back positive (they are known more for false negatives than false positives). I've shipped her a pulse-ox meter to make sure she's getting decent air. She's in SLC and Utah has been have "problems" with masks. Even though she's careful, she still got it somewhere.

 

Huntchuks..." only immunity or a vaccine will do the trick " .. true. But it's a matter of reducing the risk of infection. Incidentally restrictions here in Victoria were reduced about 3 weeks ago, certainly not back to normal but a bit nearer to it. I don't ride on bald tires with bad brakes and tail gate the car in front, riding is risky it's about reducing that. The US death rate currently is about 10% of Australias population. So reducing the risk looks like a good idea to me.

 

Masks help. They help a lot.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5fb30a6ac5b6a46646702d74

Hospitals throughout the Midwest are calling to other states in order to try and find enough ICU beds. Keep in mind that COVID infections that require hospitalization are in addition to all of the normal need for those beds.

 

As an aside.

and because I'm an Australian, obviously.

I have watched many comedians take the piss, seth meyers, stephen colbert, jimmy kimmel, etc etc
and have always wondered why the weird almost elephant type of logo when they are talking about the current... well incumbent.

Holy shite!
after some furious googling it isn't actually, what I thought ( which was "the elephant in the room" ) but an actual cartoonic encapsulation of the american republican party as an elephant as being...
well hell I don't know the point of the cartoons I looked at, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Elephants in America at any point... regardless!

At any rate.
I do now realise that the 'republican' vs 'whateverthell' system is a more than just logic but more like I barrack for my team damnit and thats that.

Go the Tigers! ( for those who don't know Western Australian Football that is a WA football team in the WAFL).

So, in closing I would like to say I understand now that we are actually talking about teams and not logic and I am obviously a simpleton to think otherwise.

Question: Am I wrong?

 

You are not wrong. There are many families in the U.S. who are proud of always voting for the same party generation after generation, without regard to the policies espoused by the candidates. to some degree it's a consequence of not having a 'best choice" election system here.

 

And also commonly referred to as "tribal politics" a conundrum further fueled by media choices.

Christopher C. Krebs is the first and current Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency in the United States Department of Homeland Security, serving since November 2018 appointed by President Trump.

Well Krebs is history, fired on Twitter by President Trump

And I hope it is going better for other countries - the latest from our White House Coronavirus Task Force:

Extra care out there, please be safe

 

Ohio started a 10pm-5am cerfew last night. It might just barely help, but the truth is that the same people that ignored the mask requests will ignore the curfew.


Meanwhile in Kansas, where the legislature stripped the Governor of most of her emergency powers:
article247248634.html

article247262419.html


[Update]: A friend's new grandson (just over a week old) had a very risky surgery to replace a defective heart valve and repair a hole in his heart this past weekend (the survival rate for the surgery is around 40%). One of the nurses that has been caring for him in the ICU tested positive for COVID today.

 

Quite simply repeating over and over coronavirus stories is not news - it's just easy news. The whole world is carrying on, much of this is not reported. This is not to say Cv is not important, nor are the numbers of sufferers and deaths, but it has become the only item on the news agenda, and with it constant nit-picking of ministers actions after the fact. It's allmost a competition amongst news reporters over here - people are turning off in droves over here.

 

https://academic.oup.com/jid/articl...pVh80_vPExoCjh0NO3VanprpW5PXwL1iCku_uynPMcea8

The Journal of Infectious Diseases, Volume 198, Issue 7, 1 October 2008, Pages 962–970
David M.. Morens, Jeffery K. Taubenberger, Anthony S. Fauci

"Conclusions: The majority of deaths in the 1918–1919 influenza pandemic likely resulted directly from secondary bacterial pneumonia caused by common upper respiratory-tract bacteria. Less substantial data from the subsequent 1957 and 1968 pandemics are consistent with these findings. If severe pandemic influenza is largely a problem of viral-bacterial copathogenesis, pandemic planning needs to go beyond addressing the viral cause alone (e.g., influenza vaccines and antiviral drugs). Prevention, diagnosis, prophylaxis, and treatment of secondary bacterial pneumonia, as well as stockpiling of antibiotics and bacterial vaccines, should also be high priorities for pandemic planning.


Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to re-create the Spanish Flu virus (H1N1), as was done in 2005 by guess who:
www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2005/10/scientists-recreate-1918-flu-virus-see-parallels-h5n1

"Scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reconstructed the virus and tested it in laboratory animals, which quickly died. The CDC says the work, to be reported in Science, will enhance preparedness for the next flu pandemic, a potential benefit believed to justify the risk of recreating the virus and publishing the information.

In a joint statement today, the directors of the CDC and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease (NIAID), Dr. Julie Gerberding and Dr. Anthony Fauci, said, "For the first time, researchers have deciphered the entire gene sequence of the 1918 virus and have used sophisticated techniques to assemble viruses that bear some or all of these genes so their effects can be understood.”



“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.”
- Milton Friedman

 

Damn... recreating a disease to play with it, surely that's what a secret moon base is for.

 

And the point here is... ?

If you don't get the primary virus, you don't get the secondary pneumonia. So, take measure to prevent that.

Also, you might want to get a pneumonia vaccine, of you haven't already. It's available.

Unless you got some evidence tying these two together, please drop the wink-wink-nudge-nudge. This is Apophenia talking.

 

@chacal

I have asthma (have had since I was 9). Sometimes I get the flu, and then about 50% of the time I get pneumonia afterward. I am very lucky that I have not had to be hospitalized with pneumonia so-far in my life. By my count I've had to be treated for it over a dozen times (most before a vaccine was available to me). Arguing semantics about the cause of death does not change the instigating factor, and has no bearing on whether or not to prevent the spread of disease, because death is not the only negative outcome.


Around 50% of all motorcycle accidents are single-vehicle events, meaning that the rider is the instigating factor. What do we do to mitigate that? We make the easiest pathway toward licensure the taking of a motorcycle safety course (we could do better though). Most (still?) states also require riders to wear a helmet to mitigate the damage caused to the rider when an accident occurs. Motorcycle manufacturers are required to incorporate safety equipment on their machines (we caution against removing the safety relays all the time here, don't we?), again to mitigate the risks involved.

Wear a mask, social distance, and get vaccinated when it becomes available to you.

 

I did too, rather bad when young, and lots of allergies, too. Got shots for almost 5 years, once a week, when I was young.....you can imagine how that went over! Luckily, I "outgrew" or was treated successfully enough that it's only a minor annoyance now.

In regards to the "wear a mask, social distance, vaccinate" issue, I think that is great advice which should be voluntary, not mandatory, and a decision to be made by individuals depending on their particular situation and environment. I think they should also be aware of the risks of doing so. Very few things in the medical field are a clear-cut all-gain/no-risk type of situation.

And although it may surprise some people, I was likely one of the earliest adapters of wearing a mask (and gloves, and eye protection), starting somewhere about late January /early February, as it was obvious by then that something was going on "over there", and it was likely to arrive over here soon enough. In fact, my friends would make fun of me (and some even refused to go into stores with me, saying that I was "scaring people"......I reminded them that the CDC was just a few miles down the road, and was probably getting test samples in from around the world, sort of a concentration point for what was being portrayed as a very serious problem. Of course, that observation made them even more skeptical.....). And these weren't the little "face diaper" type masks like you see nowadays; these were half-face respirators with dual N99 or P100 cartridges......real filters. The things that I observe most people wearing as "masks" are basically useless for disease prevention, they're a joke, they're a talisman as I pointed out previously.

People who are at-risk or in a "hot zone" should probably take whatever prudent precautions that they feel are necessary, just as they would for any communicable disease....that's common sense, and, hopefully what such people have been doing for years and years during flu season, etc.

I'm not so sure that this is necessarily true. It is also possible that the wholesale, constant use of masks leads to bacterial infections, as common sense might dictate. Bacteria are huge compared to viral particles, and thus quite a bit of expelled bacteria may remain in the mask and get re-introduced into the airways.......whereas viral particles will pass right thru most masks, medical-grade or not. So perhaps the mechanism is this: viral outbreak occurs, people mask-up, and thus give themselves respiratory bacterial infections, and they get sick and die from bacterial infections. Not saying that is true, but it certainly is worth exploring?

Perhaps this is why the reported success with hydroxichloroquine (HCQ) and other treatment protocols that showed a lot of success: all of them included a antibiotic component in addition to the anti-viral properties found in HCQ.

It is pretty well established that paper masks, cloth masks, home-made masks, masks with vents, designer masks, loose-fitting masks, masks improperly fitted, masks that people touch a lot (like, when speaking or eating or just in general) are ineffective at viral control. Virus particles are just too small, and the general population does not have the means, the money, the training, nor the knowledge of how to properly use masks even on a short-term basis (never mind all day, every day) for disease prevention control.

Evidence in leiu of definitive, proven causality (i.e. what amounts to merely a theory/hypothesis/conjecture) requires connecting lots of little dots to get a better understanding of what is really "going on". So I thank you for the suggestion, but I'll probably keep exploring the data and evidence.


An oldie but goodie:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzEdYlSjfEI

The numbers have obviously changed since then, but the question around the 3:20 mark seems important.


Oh, and "S. Peterson" was not available:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEo3rnU12jw&feature=youtu.be

 

FWIW. I used to have to wear a mask regularly for my old job (glass dust is bad to breathe), and know many longtime career nurses who have been wearing masks throughout 10-12 hour shifts for the past several months. Masks do not increase bacerial load or increase the susceptibility to respritory infections. There is plenty of nonanecdotal evidence to support that anecdotal observation.

Everywhere is becoming a hot-zone, because far too many people did not adhere to reccomendtions earlier in the year.
Rates that increase at an increasing rate get out of hand really quickly.

 

Yes, exponential math is pretty iron-clad in it's expected outcome.

Why do you say this?

 

Your question relates directly to my first statement.

Too many in the US (and in some cases abroad) have ignored guidelines and mandates (particularly certian politicians who have insisted that the whole thing is a hoax).
Refer back to my earlier post about Midwest hospitals, and the additional news (not linked here) of schools returning to virtual learning.

Also: Purple is bad.

https://www.wlwt.com/article/ohio-has-its-first-purple-county-heres-what-that-means/34730074

The increse in cases is not limited to Ohio.

 

If this was true, you'd see pneumonia without COVID. Maybe even more pneumonia than COVID. And there is no evidence of that.

Instead, what we are seeing is people getting COVID, and then developing pneumonia, likely due to shallow breathing and stagnation in the lungs. My dad's pneumonia came on two weeks after Covid. He wasn't great on mask wearing to begin with, and he stopped once he got sick, so you can't blame it on that.

HCQ didn't show a lot of success.

The people who claimed it did, had various flaws to their methods. One cherrypicked patients that were less sick and getting better, another was more or less anecdotal.

Claims of HCQ being a huge success dwindled down a while ago. I can't really remember it being much in the news after that witch doctor woman. It may be somewhat useful as an anti-inflammatory, but there are other drugs that do the same.

You don't exhale just virus particles. You exhale vapor. If even 5% of what you exhaled gets caught, it's still better than 0% of no mask. 5>0.

That's the thing, though - what you have isn't evidence. It's a budding conspiracy theory. You mention a fact, and then invite people to make unfounded inferences. You make a show of impartiality, but really you are guiding the apophenia. Perhaps you don't realize it, but that's what you are doing.

There is absolutely nothing to tie a pandemic starting in China with a completely different virus being re-created at the CDC.

Labs work with various nasty stuff that is either rare or eradicated in the wild all the time. Yes, it is a good idea to do that. No, it isn't causing problems.

That was... I don't now what that was. Some kind of performance art? Hypnosis? I can't take this spoon-feeding set to goopy music. It makes me itch. I gave up at about 30 seconds. I don't see how anyone can take this nonsense seriously.

I have serious doubts as to the authenticity of this.

A Dr. Hodkinson appears to exist, with the list of credentials mentioned, but he is the CEO of MedMalDoctors and Western Medical Assessments, both companies that provide expert testimony in malpractice lawsuits. They make no physical products. The supposed "biotechnology company selling COVID tests" is unnamed, and I can't find any information about it. I would think that if his other two companies list his information on their sites, that one should too.

Literally everything else about him online is a copypaste of what's in that video, all of it on seedy conspirologist sites and in Facebook posts. There is no other confirmation of this.

Lack of details about what this supposed meeting was, where it took place, who the other participants are, that's also very suspicious.

Look, anyone can put together a video and say anything they want. Anyone with access to MS Teams can create a screen like that. I could do that right now, I have Teams for work. I could present myself as literally anyone, whose voice isn't well-known publicly. Note that the speaker doesn't have video on, and, judging by the icon, is calling into the meeting from a phone.

On a side note, Teams has a built-in recording function, and the recordings don't show the screen sideways like that.


Whether this guy is for real or not, I would love to have had him around with us to talk to the ICU team two days ago when they told us my dad was gone. And to the funeral home yesterday. Then, they could maybe show him the bodies. And what the damage is. And how the people in the ICU are. And tell him how our local military cemetery is booked weeks out. They told us they are running 25 funerals a day.

Bad flu season, my ass.

 

from theory to practical, if i'm in the checkout line and someone without a mask gets in my face and starts spouting off about covid and masks, can i smack them upside the head with a can of beans
and claim self defense?

 

What is a "case"?

 

Are you seriously wanting to argue what that word means in the context of transmissible disease?
I cannot imagine that you honestly don't know what the word means.

 

Get a grip you two...
One thing became clear today, whatever your beliefs, Giorgia voted to get rid of Trump, I won't comment further..

 

If we're being honest, you shouldn't be in the checkout line, you should be refused at the door if you don't have a mask. Will you politely walk away and go get one (or go home and order something delivery) or will you spout off about masks making no difference? Because that's the reality we've been in with people refusing to wear masks and claiming FREEDOM!!!!

 

A lot more states than Georgia voted to get rid of Trump, and millions more people too. Enough to win the electoral college AND the popular vote. And there's not a shred of EVIDENCE to the contrary.

 

cdc-publishes-research-showing-kansas-mask-mandates-helped-drive-down-covid-19-infections

 

Let me explain this to you k-moe. Back when the infection started and was growing exponentially, epidemiologists were warning of the exponential growth. Trump and right wing media claimed that there was no pandemic and it would all go away, and used the “case” definition as one explanation.<sarcasm off >

Now that a quarter of a million Americans have died from it so far (far more than the annual flu deaths they kept going on about normalizing it) maybe the right wing media (Trump administration and Fox News) should reevaluate their predictions on the epidemic and who to trust (epidemiologists instead of crack pots and witch doctors) and admit they were wrong. There’s still a pandemic raging, and still lots to do to show it down. Even if, sadly, it’s already too late for some (sorry for your loss JPaganel).

 

The John Birch wing of the Republican party is never wrong, and never reevaluates anything. Hence the huge mess we are in.

 

I'm not wanting to argue, I simply asked what the word means, in the context of this situation. Definitions are important, certainly something as simple as this can be a source of agreement?