Helmet laws in the news again

First off, I like to ride fast at times, so I wear a helmet by choice.

The recent headlines of Ben Roethlisberger not wearing his helmet has thrown helmet laws into question again.

Florida (where I live, and where helmet use has dropped to less than 30%, as most no longer wear a helmet) is used an an example of a problem with helmet laws being repealed. Stats show since the helmet law was repealed, injury and deaths increased. This is used by the newsmedia to get attention. In reality, yes, injury and deaths have increased, but at a slower pace than they would have if helmet laws remained.

The stats are:

Florida motorcycle registrations shot upward 87 percent since the helmet repeal took effect. Annual registrations increased from 238,229 to 445,896 from 2000-04.

Total Florida motorcycle fatalities have increased statewide since the helmet law's repeal. The yearly death toll leaped from 259 in 2000 to 432 in 2004 -- a 67 percent jump.

Of the licensed riders who were killed between 1998 and 2003, not one had participated in the state-administered Florida Rider Training Program.

So is the problem really related to helmet laws?

I think the following has a huge affect:
1. Invincibility.
When wearing a helmet, you may have a safer feeling, and you may push the limits of a bike more often. Speed kills. When not wearing a helmet, you are more cautious, and chances are you would not take the same chances of pushing the bike to higher speeds.
2. Senses.
With a helmet on, you are slightly more limited in your hearing and vision, which may result in a slightly slower time to react to problems.
3. Faster bikes (and movies to glamorize them) with no prerequisite of any kind for owning one.
My stepson was killed 3 years ago riding his Hayabusa before he reached 19 years old.
It was his first bike of any sort, and he had it less than 2 months.
He was wearing a helmet.
A cop spotted him at well over 130MPH.

Not trying to bring up a debate about helmet laws, but also don't want an accident from a QB to change the way life works with negative publicity, much like the Janet Jackson accident changed the way TV is now broadcast.

What do you think?

 

To put numbers into simply terms:

When helmet law was in affect you had a 1 in 920 chance to be killed on your bike.

Since helmet laws have been repealed, you have a 1 in 1032 chance of being killed on your bike, so it is now safer.

 

I'm all for wearing a helmet as a result of inteligent choice but I must disagree with your second post Rob. The following links are most useful since they do rely upon empirical evidence to support their views. http://healthresearch.georgetown.edu/Er ... etlaws.htm and http://www.iihs.org/laws/state_laws/helmet_use.html. They state that the rates of deaths since the repeal have occured have definitively increased, period. I would suggest some additional reading by googling Helmet safety laws and checking out a few of the links. One additional link that I think should also be read is the review that was provided by the Motorcyclist Magzine (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearb ... et_review/). It was written from our perspective (the guys who ride) and they pulled out the fluff. While is is not exactly a ringing endorsement of Snell ratings, they do support proper protective equipment. Please post your referrences, I would be most interested in them. Thanks.

 

As a former racer I prefer to wear a helmet at all times on my bike, I have gone down at 150+ and if not for my lid having a half dollar size hole in it, it would have been in my head. So if you like your head wear a helmet.

 

Having been down once - and hopefully never again - I will say to anyone who will listen -- whether or not you like wearing a helmet, if I go down, I want SOMETHING between my head and the pavement. Simple as that.

 

A few interesting facts from the land downunder.

Helmets are compulsory. Has been for as long as I remember. They no longer issue exemptions for those with "Medical" reasons for not wearing a helmet. Bikies (OMG's) have to apply for special permission to ride in a funeral procession without helmets.

About five years ago they made it compulsory to wear a helmet on a PUSH BIKE. This has reduced the number of fatalities related to pushbike accidents. Now these are not usually speed related accidents.

Sorry, Rob, nothing personal, but I refuse to beleive the stats you have quoted. Statistics are usually interpreted and reported in the biased view of one party. Any set of statistics can usually have positive areas for two opposing arguements and each side will only report what suits them.

Old cliche. It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end.

People have been killed falling off a non moving bike because thier head hits the ground first.

A personal experience with a rock flicking up off a truck tyre and taking a large chunk from the top of my helmet (better than my head) leaves me with the personal opinion that helmets should be required by LAW.

/end rant. :wink:

 

I wanna move to florida , laws laws , a law soon to not walk out the front door as "you might be hit by a bus" , i guess my complaint is the numbercrunchers that work all this out and then law it , instead of realizing alot of people are plain stupid /life/events/aliens and humans and so our choice disappears.....under the guise of helpful and a dollar....mi 10c worth too.

Over the years i personally know of 3 ded people that were ded because of the helmet..

 

Sorry for not providing the links to back post up as I usually would do. Was in a hurry, and the info was found by googling:

Florida Motorcycle registration Helmet

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.d ... /606180322

Did the math for you using 2000 numbers of 238,229 registered bikes with 259 deaths, equals 1 in 920. Then did 2004 numbers of 445,896 registered bikes with 432 deaths, equals 1 in 1032.

Another point I failed to make was this blame game the media is using because of the Ben Roethlisberger accident. CNN, Fox, and all other news media act like because he was not wearing a helmet, he crashed. Of course that is a farce. Helmet had zero to do with it, yet they say helmet more than anything else. Even if he was wearing a helmet, chances are he still would have had a broken jaw and nose, unless he wore a full face. So what's next? All riders required to wear a full face helmet? Don't think it won't happen. Then what? Full leathers, even in 95 degree Florida heat? Side crash bars to protect rider at all times? Four wheels? They take away rights to protect us from ourselves, and given an opportunity to pounce on a hot topic, you usually see law changes soon afterwards. 3-wheel ATVs are too dangerous to sell anymore, yet Honda admits their 4 wheeler is no safer (http://library.findlaw.com/1992/Nov/1/130577.html). Two cycle personal watercraft are being banned in many locations. No wake jumping laws because of an accident between a jetski and high profile signer..

That's what I was trying to get across, not the "is a helmet safer debate". Of course a helmet is safer under nearly every instance. Soon you might even be wearing on in your car :wink:

 

HooNz - I'd like more clarification on this statement.
Having been a motorcyclist wearing a helmet for over 20 years, and working in Healthcare (hospital) - I have NEVER seen or heard of a single case of a motorcyclist accident where the rider's helmet caused or was responsible for a death.

Theoretically it's possible I suppose.... I'd like to hear about the circumstances you're referring to though.

 

One thing people fail to realize though is all the work and money that goes into trying to save people's lives who could have otherwise walked away from an accident. My wife loves the Discovery Health channel, and they have several shows highlighting the ER's. Several times I have seen accidents that could have otherwise been avoided that resulted in doctors, nurses, and EMS's working their butts off, and taking them away from other serious medical issues, all because Joe Schmoe didn't want to wear a helmet.

 

From the link Robert posted above:

12. Do people support mandatory helmet use? According to a 2000 motor vehicle occupant survey conducted by NHTSA, 81 percent reported that they favored mandatory helmet use laws for motorcyclists. Support is more prevalent among females (88 percent) than males (72 percent) and among non-motorcyclists (83 percent) than those who drove motorcycles (51 percent). Support was higher in states requiring all riders to wear helmets (84 percent) compared with states with lesser requirements (75 percent) or no requirements (79 percent).27

Couple things.

When was this survey polled in the area's where helmet laws were currently in affect? I ask because if you asked me the question while the law was in affect, I too would have said the same thing most of you are saying, yes it should be a law. But now ask that question in an area where there is no helmet law for a few years, and you would be surprised at the change of opinions. Many (not all) of you that are for the law would think otherwise after experiencing it first hand. I changed, and so did most people I know in there 30's through 50's.

The other important thing to note about that poll is who is for the law.
83 percent of non-motorcyclists. Why should they have any say in the first place about taking rights away from another class of people....???

 

Good point, and very true.
But, if you bring that up, you also must bring up the fact that many people who would have died from their injuries because they failed to wear a helmet, now are living paralyzed or crippled for the rest of there lives. Bike accidents are brutal. Yes, the head can be protected, but what about the rest? Were lap seatbelts enough for cars? Will the laws stop at helmets? My brother told me when I bought my first bike never to buy collision insurance because if the bike was damaged bad enough, you wouldn't be around to ride it again anyway.

 

Agree 100% there.

As I'm sure you know, any one of us could walk outside today, something fall on our head, slip on something, etc., and we could also end up the same way. Yes, bike accidents are brutal, that's why I believe in protecting yourself to the fullest extent. I didn't comment on woot's post in another thread about riding gear, but I agree with his philosophy on wearing protective gear. Here's that thread: http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1160.html

I don't quite agree with that either, I have quite a few friends who have totalled bikes and are still riding. One that spent 2 days in the ICU and about a week in the hospital, and was riding again within 2 weeks. And on the same bike that sent him to the hospital to begin with! I don't carry collision insurance on my bikes because I'd end up paying more in insurance than the bike is worth! :lol: But that's getting pretty off-topic.

Anyway, all in all, I tend to agree that it should be a choice, same with wearing seat belts. I choose to wear my seat-belt or helmet, some don't. The only thing I have a problem with is the people who don't take the time to consider their decision, and weigh their options, and only do it because it's the "cool" thing to do.

 

I'm really torn on this one. Generally, I'm a very hands off kind of guy. I don't want the governement telling me what I can and can not do beyond the obvious.

At the same time, I just don't understand the argument for not wearing a helmet. Every time I run into someone who doesn't wear one I get the same speech. They impare vision, they impare hearing, they kill more people than they save. I don't agree with that, but even if there's some truth to it, I don't buy it. If you want to ride without a helmet, then just say you like to ride without a helmet. Don't patronize me with weak arguments.

Then there's the 'there's danger everywhere' arguement. Yes, you could walk out your door and get hit by a bus or get struck by lightning or whatever but I find it hard to justify something like riding sans helmet with it. Even the friends I have that regularly ride without a helmet generally will admit that it's dangerous.

When I was 17 I was in a bicycle accident from which I still bear scars on my face. Thank god, I was wearing a helmet. The doctor told me flat out that it saved my life. And that was on a bicycle. Needless to say, I won't ride 10' without a helmet. In fact, I'm always covered with gear. When it's 100 degrees, I still wear gloves and a jacket with armor. Saftey is more important to me than comfort.

I guess I would never vote to repeal a no helmet law, but I don't think I'd vote to enact one either. We all have our own personal accepted level of risk, but some things just seem foolish.

Greg

 

All very good questions and responses folks. I'm very pleased to see that this has stirred up some thought and discussion. I'm not very happy about mandated helmets but I do see the numbers and when most of the sources sing the same tune it lends credence to the facts. I've 17 years riding and I swear by helmets given the education and experiences I have had (some were rather gruesome). I've heard folks tout that they wouldn't be caught dead wearing them because their "third cousin twice removed" (Tongue In Cheek) died because of his helmet. I offer this, if your dead because of your helmet, odds are very good you would have expired regardless of what you were wearing anyway. Common sense tells you that anything between your head and the "immovable object" is just plain smart. Heck, the thrown up rubber mentioned by Goon is just one of many reasons to cover your lid. I'm totally with you all on the Media cramming the latest "view" (funny, I don't suppose any of the reporters on the scene were riders were they? Tell me it isn't so, please) down John Q. Public's throat, bugger that, facts should be substantiated. Too many non-riders have the power of the vote to dictate what we can and can't do, so don't complain about the laws unless your voting every chance you get. I completely agree with the waste of medical professionals time trying to put Humpty "I aint a'wearin no helmet" Dumpty's (pun intended) nut back together after his fall. If he doesn't care to protect himself, I don't expect anyone else to care about his head either. To wear safety equipment is tantamount to announcing that you care about your hide to the casual observer. Of course I rode my bicycle as a kid without any protection whatsoever for years, got the scars to prove it. I wear a helmet and gloves now because I didn't like the sensation of my skin being scrapped from my hide (and I would have worn them as a kid if they had been available to me). I extrapolated that the same process would naturally be repeated should I try riding without protection on a motorcycle (there I go thinking again, gotta stop doing that) only more so given the speeds involved. I hope that those of you who are still adamant about not wearing your helmet understand what the odds of your actions are and are comfortable with that. I couldn't be. Best of luck to you all but you know, as I do, that there is some knuckle head driver out there with your name on his bumper, it is only a matter of time. Hope your covered.

 

A lot of words in here and im not a wordy person... I went down at under 10mph last week on a slick (= not rough) black tar (=smooth) road... To my surprise my jeans came out totally ripped on the downside leg and the helmet skared up from my slide. This is from under 10mph... there is no way in the world you would get me on the bike without a helmet now. And i was an avid helmet supporter before this anyway.

As for the bull shit story. They impair this and that... Yea. Ever driven in a car? Say oh maybe a new f150, or a new VW. Those cars are soundproof. you cannot hear road noise.

Impair vision...? Ever driven a H2 or a double extendacab F350? Yea... great vision...

But I guess a piece of inch thick foam blocks all the sound and I guess a 180* visor blocks to much vision... since the average person only sees around 170*

 

Exactly. The vision impairment issue is BS. Put a full face helmet on, and your peripheral vision CAN NOT pick up the corners of the visor. Heck, I can't see the corners even if I turn my eyes that way. And, if vision impairment is your only argument, they make many high-quality 3/4 helmets that will still protect the most vulnerable parts of your head, and you can get a clear face shield if you want your face protected.

 

If you want to ride without a lid, you should also give up your right to sue for any damage to your noggin' ... even if the accident is not your fault. You have to assume, like in Ben's case, that if you had a full-face helmet on you *may* not have any injuries at all. So, you can only claim injuries to your body from the head down.

Some of you no-helmet guys want it both ways ... that's dumb. Have you ever been hit in the head by a bird? I have, and without a full helmet, I would have wrecked. So how does wearing a helmet in this case make me invincible? How about riding in a driving rain without a helmet? Is that safe?

Don't get me started on the guys wearing cut-offs and flipflops to ride!

 

In my idiot days, I ran shorts and sneakers. Got behind a buddies Suzuki Samuri and he went through a patch of broken glass at freeway speed. I was too close and that shower of glass peppered me. Stings it does, I was bleeding like a stuck pig. Learned my lesson cheap if you ask me. Aren't current helmets required not to obstruct peripheral vision? (I'm not referring to the race helmets, rather the street variety)

 

Wear a helmet!? But then I won't be able to use my cell phone!

I'm kidding, but as a novice rider, and one who see's car drivers chatting on their cell phones or listening to their radios or doing anything else that takes their attention away from ME! makes it imperative that I look out for myself by wearing a helmet.

Whenever I drive north to New Hampshire or Maine, and I see all the bikers stopping across the state line to shed their helmets, I always wondered, "Do they think their heads are going to bounce off the pavement more lightly up here?I know the air is cleaner and the gas is cheaper, but are the streets actually softer?They bought the helmets, so why not use em?" Still can't figure it out.

 

alright, so we've established that helmets can cause or save you in an accident. I think the best solution to tis problem is choice. You can chose to run the risk by not wearing a helmet just as you chose to run the risk of riding at all. Biking in general is nowhere near as safe as a car in a collision, so in cases of bad accidents you have to ask how much a little piece of plastic wrapped around the top of your head is really going to do when you're 2 inches emedded into the grill of a semi-truck. At least you're brain will be intact to feel the pain. On the other hand if you have a skid and land on you're head, at least you won't go prematurely bald while healing. My vote is for choice, not enforcement. Personally i wear A helmet, although i'm dubious to how good it is at protecting, as the padding is smaller than most and the design was originally for extreme skiiers(who can reach high speeds on a steep descent) I certainly hope i never find out.

 

Remember the old? days , volvo drivers , anyone on a bike beware if see a volvo driver [out here 80-90's] , it was a psykology , the volvo drivers purchased a "safe" car , collisions not a problem in a volvo as they were sold as the safest car in the world at that time , so , they were so safe in psykology that a volvo was a tank just waiting to flatten a bike as they were relaxed and NOT driving safe as the volvo did the work , [now watch out for mercedes these days , the same drivers have upgraded] , also people in cages that drive with hats on , beware!!.

these things are/were known on the road by the road people , not in books or papers.....a "common knowledge".

The same can go for "some" people that put on a lid , a psykology of being safe or safer and the care might diminish as they are safe!..

same as seatbelts ect ect ect.

The issue seems to me not helmets whether safe or not but the law , if i wanted to zip up the shop without a lid why can i not do so if that was my want , i would wear one if wanted on a long trip or town maybe OR on a long trip out in the middle of nowhere i might [depending on circumstanses] not wear the lid and stick it on the rack if i had one.

I would forgo insurence for my right to decide and that is just the issue , my and others rights taken away and one is penalized if one breaks these self decisions to keep the money machine running at its most parasitik as the crunchers study without being known where they are from .

Pushbikes the same , when older [argument sake 20yo] , one should know by then iF or when to don a lid to go up to the local shop or not , little kids instructed to use as little then the desicions at a later age should be made by them not a parasitik entity that keeps us dumb , i tells ya you do not know whats coming , a dollar to breathe air , a new born kid brought into the world with a $5000 bill [as it is now] , the bill , a burial , a bill as that kid takes its first breath , number crunchers look that way , crunching away $$$ , its your fault the earth is the way it is so YOU pay for it , its already started , air tax .
[buy the way no mention how much kerosene is being burnt directly into the upper atmosphere every day , you heard that yet on da telly , big dollar interests there so keep it quite].

I agree as you might guess with the first post , not wether safe or not but the implication of said events.

yes i ramble on a bit , and just because that someone else has seen ded from helmets does not mean it does not happen , i made a statement and i saw and thats it , they ded......

So to round of with the calculator and keyboard , i am not against helmets/ seatbelts/ or people that use or do not use , i do not enjoy the law$...

i suppose that since i typed all this cr-p i better submit it

 

"You have to assume, like in Ben's case, that if you had a full-face helmet on you *may* not have any injuries at all"

That statement is the sort of stuff that worries me about all of this, and should worry you.
While it is 100% correct, it then stretched a no helmet law news story into not just a helmet law, but a full face helmet law. (disclaimer again: Most of the time I only wear full face quality AGV helmets myself). If Ben had worn an open face helmet, and had the same injuries as no helmet (broken jaw and nose), no one in the press would have mentioned a helmet law, because it would have confirmed for those opposed to helmet laws that a helmet did not help. If he had a full face helmet, and walked away unharmed, that would have also been all over the news in a no helmet required state, as proof helmets work.

So for those in favor of a helmet law, should this then be a mandatory full face helmet law? (yes, I am baiting)..

BTW, it's great that a controversial topic can be brought up here, yet everyone posts logical replies, with no flaming or arguing. I was a little worried with first post, but nice to see just a bunch of normal guys speaking ther minds! Thanks.

 

Here here! I agree with just about everything passed along here, and as HooNz pointed out, it is government meddling I'm opposed to. Let those who ride decide, but let the consequences of that choice be on the rider! I don't believe that the folks that have to clean up after a rider gets smeared all over the highway should have to go through all of that. I hope to leave a reasonably abused corps behind at the end of my days. I will continue to manage the risks and accept the outcome of my choices and I don't want anyone else to suffer for my choices. Of course I can reasonably expect that some folks will be unhappy at the time of my passing (which, by grace of God, won’t be anytime soon I hope), but if it is sooner rather than later, it won’t be because I wasn’t wearing my gear! Peace to each of you, thanks for the comments. I’ve enjoyed this discussion as well.

 

Seems the biggest issue is the personal one of nobody wants to be told what they can and can't do. While I agree with the sentiment, I don't agree with the principal. We are already controlled and contained in other areas, so what difference does one more restriction make.

You currently have the choice to wear a helmet or not. This is your simple choice.

Now put yourself in the position of a cager. Accidents happen far too often, but if the cager is in error and pulls out in front of a motorcycle and the rider takes a tumble, lands head first and dies because he wasn't wearing a helmet then the cager has to live with this for ever. Where was the cagers freedom of choice. A helmet may have saved that life slightly alleviating the cagers guilt. Accidents are not always a cager error (it happens, three cars rear ended by bikes this week in Perth) but the surviving driver still feels guilt.

So what you say. It's my life, I know the risks. Fair comment. Now go ask your family and friends if they will miss you. Sad fact is, it may be your life but many are affected by loss of one.

Another point made was , yes, you can get hit by a bus or a grand piano may drop out of a passing 747 and land on your head. All possible, but the odds are in favour of it not happening. Every time you throw a leg over the bike and turn the key the odds against you increase dramatically.

In summary, My opinion is if you don't want to wear a helmet, then take the bus. I would like to think each and every one of you will grow old and enjoy the thrills of life, love and parenthood. The joys of life worth enjoying. 8)

Now get your lid on and go cut some miles. :wink:

HG

 

I personally wear a full face helmet. I used to race and walked away alive more than once because of my helmet.

Rant on

The difference is, you give up something thinking that one more restriction isn't going to make a difference, then the next thing you know, you can't call anyone without permission, you can't go to the grocery store unless you send in an application and $10.00, you can't give someone an honest compliment without being brought up on Sexual Harrassment, the list could go on and on. Complacency is NOT what you want to do! If you believe is something, fight for it!

Rant Off

Now I would not be caught on a bike without a full face helmet. But that is me. I say if you live in a state that does not require helmets, then you SHOULD have to do something to compensate in case you get in an accident. For example, when you get your license, you state whether or not you are going to be a helmet wearer or not. If not, you pay a fee or extra on your insurance so that the taxpayers aren't paying for your vegitative state. If you state you are a helmet wearer and you get in an accident while not wearing a helmet, you should have to pay a fine and extra insurance (again to cover medical costs) or if you die, your immediate kin gets hit with the fee. Why next of kin? If they know they are going to have to pay some big money if you get in an accident without a helmet, they will work harder to make sure you do wear one. However it is still your choice.

Anyway, that is my $.02

 

I believe in helmets (full-face for me, thanks), but I also believe in freedom of choice. Without thinking TOO much about it (hey it's late/early), I like tazz's suggestion above - no helmet, manditory medical insurance payments. That could work.

I really don't get the guys who have the pretty, expensive full-face helmet strapped to the seat of the bike as they rip along. Actually, I do - they probably made a deals with their loved ones that they'd ONLY get a bike if they promised to wear a helmet. So they slap it on their heads, round the corner from home, stop, and park the helmet on the back seat to protect it. You paid for the damned thing - use it!

Another thing I don't get is that I know a lot of guys that ALWAYS wear helmets when snowmobiling, but won't on a bike. 'Cause that pavement is SO much more forgiving than the snow and trees.

 

It amazes me that some people object to helmet laws. If you have any common sense whatsoever you shouldn't need the law to force you to wear a helmet. Apparently some are still stupid enough not to wear helmets and the cops/EMTs are sick of scraping dead bodies off of the road, so now there's laws saying you have to wear helmets. Same deal with seatbelts in cars (click it or ticket law). Riding without a helmet is a bad idea at anytime, even on a bicycle. Helmets have saved my life more than once on mountain bikes. There's no way I will ever ride a motorcycle without one.

 

Whilst i do not understand the sentiment , as depends on where who and how , but i'll tell ya this , On a lovely spring day not a car in sight and generally out of town the smells of flowers ect a crisp breeze either just pegging 80ks[50mph] or doing better than that IS a experience to have.

car drivers called in a cage!

Bike riders soon to be in their own psyko logical "cage" soon , too damn scared to Fart incase they blow up.....

seriously , as time goes on wimps progress.

 

Rant on.

I don't think we need a law to mandate helmet wearing.

I don't like the fact that people who don't wear helmets and have accidents are a drain on the medical system but I don't think this is an arguement motorcyclists as a body should follow - certainly any motorcyclist in the same accident as a cager is going to require more medical attention than the cager - see where I'm going with that? If we legislate helmet use on this point then aren't we saying we should also legislate not riding a motorcycle in the first place? This is a slippery slope arguement and as such is pretty flimsy...

I do think people who don't wear a helmet are absolutely insane. I have heard ridiculous stories about how a helmet actually hurt somebody instead of helped them. Stuff like they hit a guard rail and the helmet made their head spin so they snapped their neck. You hit a guard rail! What exactly would have made it less worse if you weren't wearing a helmet?

Myth 1: You can't hear. Yes you can. Infact I bet you can actually hear better with a helmet than with out one. Probably the best you can possibly hear on a bike is in a helmet with ear plugs. The problem on a motorcycle isn't that things are too quiet it is that they are too loud. When things are too loud you can't hear the quiet things - like the non-helmet wearer's story about hearing a car behind them which they couldn't have heard with a helmet on. Bollocks. I hear cars just fine. I also don't hear the wind roaring and my ears don't ring after a real ride.

Myth 2: You can't see. Right... do we have to answer this one? With a proper visor your eyes aren't dried to hell by wind, they're certainly more relaxed and don't fatique as much. You've also got the added bonus that a visor, unlike a nice pair of Oakleys will protect you from a pigeon. One day I had a pigeon smash the mirror off my bars... imagine that to the face? I've gotten several sparrows off the helmet - a bit spooky but not dangerous... with no helmet and a pair of oakleys what would have happened? What about the constant bombardment of pebbles and road dirt. Sorry - I'm never going to be ridding without my visor.

Myth 3: The helmet caused more damage than if you had not been wearing a helmet. Can someone describe a reasonable feasible story where this is true. The general story I've heard is that it lead to someones neck being broken. I'm sorry - if you hit something hard enough to break your neck, you also hit it hard enough to seriously smash in your skull. Remember it doesn't have to break your skull to kill you, only rattle your brain about and cause bleeding... I can not for the life of me invision the perfectly wrong accident that the extra weight of the helmet caused a persons neck to break that without the helmet wouldn't have. Remember that current full face helmets are really much lighter than they were a few years ago even.

So to me helmets have innumerable benefits and very few draw backs.

Cons? They do cost money. They do take a few seconds to put on. Maybe they aren't as cool as a bandanna?

With the helmet on - I can still smell the flowers... I can still feel the wind... with the helmet on I feel safer and I can enjoy the ride.

Ridding a bike is a risk but you can choose to mitigate some of the risk. You can choose to wear a helmet, wear a jacket, wear appropriate boots, gloves and pants... take a rider safety course and ride defensively.

If mitigating the risks of ridding a motorcycle makes me less of a rider - well I suppose I'll just have to accept that as well. Mean while I'm quiet happy to zip through the country roads without tasting the fauna


Rant off.

Woot.

 

Helmet laws........ that would suck.

How will I ever be able to drink my morning coffee, while smoking a cigeratte, and talking on a cell.

They should make helmet manditory, same as wearing jeans and some type of boots, had a coworker decide to be a dumb ass, and drive his crotch rocket like the idiot that he is, the paper stated that the cop clocked him at 101 mph and started to chase, after loosing sight of the bike, the cop was going to discontinue the chase, when he came up over a hill and saw the bike laying in the road.... and yup you guessed it, he was balled up in the ditch, bleeding to death, he ended up with 70% of his body looking like meat with areas down to bare bone....... and yup everyone guessed right, he had on a pair of shorts, shoes, and a t-shirt. Probably the only smart thing that this shithead did was put his helmet on, no due to his stupidity, the guys in his department have to work extra hours to cover up for his being gone.

Point of this WEAR YOU PROTECTIVE GEAR. I always wear jeans, combat boots (prior service army), some type of jacket/sweatshirt, earplugs, and full face shield HELMET.

Just my 2 cents worth, and I'll probably get change back from it.

 

HooNz - you keep talking about people being killed by helmets but you've never described how.

--

Someone made a good point about a car hitting a biker... if the biker was wearing a helmet the hospital trip would cost one ammount, if the biker was not wearing a helmet a hospital trip could/would cost more. Where the cager didn't choose to hit either rider, and the rider had choosen not to wear a helmet, why should the cager be as responsible for the damages to the helmet less rider... very interesting thought because you could apply this to wearing different gear - or even a cage hitting another cage. The very fine line between personal protective gear and the varying protection surrounding the person in the form of a cage.

--

If one were to mandate helmets - would you also mandate gear on the same grounds? What constitutes gear and what level of protection does that constitute.

Some believe gear is a helmet, vest, jeans, short gloves and sneakers.

Some like myself wear, a ballastic jacket, ballistic pants, leather reinforced gloves, helmet, tall motorcycle ballastic boots and ear plugs.

Some people wear one piece purpose built suits, helmet, armoured gloves and boots....

What level of protection would be reasonable to expect if one thought it was reasonable to legislate helmet wearing? Think outside what you consider appropriate... think from other people's perspectives; The helmet free guy, the tourer, the 'racer' and the summer coffee shop guy.

I can't decide what is appropriate for everyone, however, I can decide to wear what I think is appropriate. Isn't that what the whole freedom debate is about? The freedom to be an idiot... ok that last was a bit of a jab/joke.

Woot.

 

I'm sorry, I draw a different conclusion from this story: don't ride like a squid, and don't try to outrun the cops.

He wasn't obeying existing basic traffic laws, what would a 'protecive gear' law have done to protect him from himself? Squat.

Maybe I missed something? :roll:

 

Golf clap for Oblivion

 

Hey whats this pick on HooNz bit woot? , i have only mentioned once about da ded helmets so where's this "you keep on mentioning".

And i explained!.

SO HERE'S BACK TO YOU With the helmet on - I can still smell the flowers... I can still feel the wind... with the helmet on I feel safer and I can enjoy the ride.

The operative key word there is Makes you feel Safer , did own volvo?

Sometimes i can see when sentiment creeps in i see a pack of robots on motorcycles all with the same padding / boots/ gloves /helmets / by the law! ect ect that all feel safe Yet still get ded or broken at some point in time who will blame who/what then? maybe its the motorcycle's fault? , i know the manufacturers of said items will be laughing all the way to the bank fer sure.

Should invent a self timing "flower" smell inside da helmet and then it could be fully isolated from the enviroment just like in the preditor movie and then even a shoulder laser to do people that don't like helmet laws even maybe never take it off...

As far as scraping people up off the road goes if they no like it go and find another job! no one is forcing them , i smoke and i enjoy it , what next no FARTING in public? a law! in amongst all that pollution , they already working on that you know , experiments over in new zealand on how to stop animals from farting , the excuse its bad for the planet , they even have a birth tax as that animal will fart during its life so a fart tax [look it up] , soon to be implimented to human animals you watch , as to fart in their spaceship might or will kill em , boy o boy i have fun..........

BSE =feeding waste animal products to plant feeders , i have no sympathy , they "deserve ".
Sheep that die if not shorn.
Permenently lactating cows that are walking bones.
Bird flu , looked at a caged farm?.
list goes on and on , humans? heading there too=Robot Fodder.

So in amongst all that above is the link back to the first post , the implication of laws and their implication....and of course Alien

ya ever wondered who hollabak girl is yabbering about when asking "who is this maniac" ? amongst others [and by the way , i have throttled on just before the hit]

And since you are in Twain's country , could you please send a message that "i am waiting"

implications woot , read em and weep , .Defense off.

as one could see i'm positive about being negative....

 

Troll much?

Actually you mentioned it twice in this thread alone. I seem to remember you mentioning it before too but I haven't gone back to look:

It doesn't matter how many times you say it - if it is the truth then why not explain it to us - the people who don't understand how a helmet could hurt us?

If you are saying that because I wear a helmet I might ride like an idiot and die in a crash as a result of this bad driving, then I understand what you are saying. I disagree of course, I would say that I died in the crash because I was driving like an idiot. The helmet is piece of safety gear not an imputus to drive like an idiot.

To slice that one even finer, I am sure there are people who do feel bullet proof with gear on thus proving your point but at the same time could you not also say they were idiots before they put the gear on.

I'm sure we can both agree that idiots shouldn't ride motorcycles?

 

Of course helmets are harmful. And I can prove it.

Had a mate many years ago riding down the street at 10 mph with a full face helmet on. Cage pulled out in front of him and he fell off and face planted onto the road. Helmet pushed back and broke his nose. No doubt about it they can cause damage.


Nowhere near the damage a face plant without a helmet would have caused though.

 

Ok woot i see i have done 134 posts [they accrue quickly] , and i no looked either as i could only recall the first but as the quotes are there and cannot be argued with the ones listed is the first and the other is the response , so even if there is 1 more "you keep mentioning" out of 134 sort of is a overstatement , that was my inference , also like quoted i have responded and that was that..

Helmets like seatbelts can do harm , the issue is and always will be is the blanket propaganda of they {like seatbelts} are Failsafe.

It seems to me some times its turning into a belief rather than the facts , and saying that a number cruncher can come up with facts through magority numbers and yet still say the other numbers do not happen or deny them , in my view that is what is false about the number issue...

sure thing too , some people should not contemplait bikes , is in their makeup and do not know any better but i says its not their fault and that is what i do not enjoy being penalised for , remember the bikie saga , 1 bikie does whatever and all bikie / biker and motorcycle riders payed for it and still do.
On tv with the movies , the viewers [thats what those bikies are like] [thats what motorcylists do] as a viewer , same as some people sees them and [that looks like fun i'll get a bike] , not knowing the reality of the human frame and the actual lawless ness and positive bias (look up valve/tube bias , positive bias destroys the device) which is already there and has been for a long time , it gets very involved in my view and to type that all would be a subject in itself and brings in {insurance policys, do not admit guilt , sales ect] very shallow and insidious stuff i think.

And i think i'll make a clarity too , woot , i know say anythink about you personally regarding the first post issue what you do you do also if you feel its about yourself because you wear a helmet wellllllllllll i wear one too as its law! i don't speed on da bike either [cough cough] as its against the law too , i really enjoy to ride like a idiot sometimes and enjoy.

If anyone wants to put flowers on their helmet or no helmet with a flower behind the ear that has nothing to do with me , secretly i might think they look a nitwit as it might look that way but as its there perogative just as mine i feel , so why should i make a law against it.

And regarding idiots? who would have told them to put it on in the first place? , SO IS THE IDIOT AS YOU SAY THE IDIOT OR THE IDIOT THATS DOIN THE IDIOTING.

this should be in the joke section. or maybe a Zen

Funeral parlors applaud when someone dies
Funeral parlors applaud when someone born

If i ever to get to know the little second of my dedness , i will get to a big court come lawhouse and make sure i stink that place out and they pay for my carcass removal [i'll hide in a cupboard] .........

Hard to imagine all this from a post on another completEly diFFernt subject , and that is Most laws stink [excuse the pun].

 

To break this all down simply:

Should there be a helmet law: No... I'm not sure there should be.
Should people wear helmets: Yes I think so.

Can seatbelts cause fatalities: In some strange circumstances yes. Getting trapped or held in a position to get harmed.

Do seatbelts cause more harm than good: No. In most accidents that I am aware of the seatbelt did far more good than harm. We call them cages as a joke - but being held inside the cage protects the passengers from what is outside the cage. It is only when you set the cage on fire or have the cage hit so hard that it can't protect the people inside that they get harmed.

Do helmets cause more harm than good: I don't think so. I've never had a scenario explained to me that makes sense where the helmet caused more harm than would have incurred if they had of not being wearing a helmet.

I wear a seatbelt because it would protect me more oftan than it would hurts me. I think the helmet protects more frequently than harms - even more so than the seatbelt. So I wear my helmet for the protection.

would like to know how the helmet could hurt me. Could you explain that to me. If I am missing something then please let me know.

If we could show that helmets cause harm then maybe as a group we could make an informed arguement as to why helmets should never be manditory. It certainly would help explain to lawmakers that it is not cut and dry wouldn't it?

 

I'll agree with Hoonz that helmets can cause damage. As an example, I've read of cases where the extra weight of the helmet does indeed contribute to neck damage in an accident. However, these are isolated incidents, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, wearing a helmet has prevented injury, not contributed to injury. Not wearing a helmet because of possible helmet-caused injury would be like not using smoke alarms because of a fear of hearing loss...

 

I agree - this is the one point on contention that I can see... my contention that would need some scientific support would be that if the extra weight of the helmet caused the damage - and noting that a modern helmet weighs much less than the older helmets- would the damage to the skull been worse without the helmet than the helmet induced neck damage?

I can't answer that. It is an important point..

 

Woot , no personel reference whats so ever , but i just zipped here as i might forget , right now there is a tv doco from canada {via four corners here] on tv, its in winnipeg.

quoted is 1 in 3million chance to kick the bucket on da airplane , 1 in 300 chance to kick off due to miscare in hostpital system in canada , more deaths compared to aids and cancer per year in that system by miscare.

so what chance do we have , if have accident? then injured maybe live then the odds AT the hospital!

no win against the law.....

 

and the motor is together and ready to be lifted from the bedroom to the bike in kitchen , yeaaaaaaa 8O

 

Documentary just finished , and in Ausralia 18000 -/+ each year due to miscare in 1995 , our system nearly has collapsed so that would be much higher now...

 

Jazz, your smoke alarm analogy is spot on. Woot, Hooz isn't knocking you but your right, he still hasn't provided information supporting the helmet-caused deaths. I am avidly for the individual choice but I support you all in your efforts to educate riders into wearing the gear designed to help limit (within reason here folks) the damage. I'll agree with you Hooz that a fair number of the unenlightened do seem to pick up their invulnerability shirt at the dealership, right along with their invisibility shirt. See it every day. There is a very stark glare of Orwellian Big Brother when we all end up looking the same but by the same token, if something works or is the most sound decision, we may well end up looking a lot alike (although I doubt that this is the case given the wide selection of gear that is available and growing). Is that really a bad thing? That depends. A fair number of my riding buddies have similar gloves and armor simply because the word got spread of a good deal. No harm in that, finances are a big factor in a purchasing decision (especially on our government income). Others, where cost is no objective, can and do purchase equipment tailored to their frame and tastes. Expensive but available. If I were a scooter pilot itching to be different in the pack, inexpensive vinyl stickers and so on are readily available to provide me limitless variations on a theme of my choosing. Most riders just don't concern themselves with individuality simply because it is more important for them to be out riding than worrying about if someone can recognize them as they flash past. Besides, there is a greater chance of not being recognized in the pack when Johnny Law catches ya challenging the speed limit if you all look alike! (just playing devil's advocate, just for you Hooz). I'm not going to say (just as Woot pointed out) that there is no risk to having a helmet on in an accident, I'm just going to try to reiterate the point that your odds of survival are significantly higher with the helmet than without, period. It is a fact, not hypothesis or conjecture, just reality. I think we can all agree that to ride a certain amount of mental strength should be present to prevent terminal recession from existence. Let the rider beware and let Darwinism take it's course.

 

Robert , i still on about the LAW to be a robot , i have no problem whatsoever about whether one all wants to look the same , wear what one wants ect , thats is your/their business , as this still i claim started from the first post , the robot "law" is what i still type about!

I will throw back here again , i have answered so , as far as all those mentionings? then why is this pro law of everything developing (Now that has been mentioned far more ] , it seems to me when people fear a result is a law!

Are you lot so scared of being ded? , then a sickness it might be that one enjoys a motorcycle also as no matter what you wear or how safe you ride at a point in time it will happen...a number crunch.

And think about this too all readers , do you really care about what happens to others [no knowing or associations] , who cares ? , tis just bad luck OR design .

I don't.

Make a law for that...

 

Not ME

I feel this is going to be a last post on this issue for me no matter what i read later , as it just seems to be getting more stupid as it goes , and i'll take the blame too as i should have realized/or forgotten one simple fact , i do not have a alterior motive , others might especially when sinister law gets into it , it usually involves a dollar , big dollars=sales and a belief , i no "sell" anything or know different.

So keep up the mental strength and see how it goes at moving or still steel where or when you have no choice , no matter how one plans or what gear you have and basic trust as one might be looking in the eyes and hope it ain't terminal :!: .

Sitrep complete Over and Out.

 

Hey hooNz - that's a bit of a backhanded acceptance of responsibility don't you think

What we should all realize by now is that the helmet debate will never have a resolution. This is one of those eternal debates that will rage till the end of time.

Just like - shafties can't wheelie... religion... politics... cellphones in cars... whether we should have a queen or not... how much sugar to put in coffee.

We just have to agree to disagree...

 

And keep writing with a song in our hearts and a smile on our lips... Thanks for the reply Hooz, I'm with you. Can't live without a little risk, happens when you place a leg outside the bed in the morning. Woot, I am afraid you are correct, this one will contiune to rile people up for a long time to come, possibly forever. I'm not terribly in favor of laws such as this but I also don't favor anarchy. A happy medium is an acceptable compromise and I'll just accept the laws I'm not happy with as the price to pay in living with my fellow countrymen. If I don't like it, I can always move to Australia!!! See you all on the other threads!

 

Come on over Robert, And bring your helmet. The debate has been over hear for decades as it has been law to wear a helmet for as long as I can remember. The sooner they bring it in the sooner people will accept it and move on.

Laws are generally there for our protection(sometimes from ourselves) and a law to wear a helmet is no different than the law requiring you to have a licence to ride your bike.

BTW FYI Seat belts in cages is also compulsory here and will cost $150 if you don't wear one. The kick up when they brought that in was loud but now it's second nature to put it on. Just like a helmet.