Helmet laws in the news again

alright, so we've established that helmets can cause or save you in an accident. I think the best solution to tis problem is choice. You can chose to run the risk by not wearing a helmet just as you chose to run the risk of riding at all. Biking in general is nowhere near as safe as a car in a collision, so in cases of bad accidents you have to ask how much a little piece of plastic wrapped around the top of your head is really going to do when you're 2 inches emedded into the grill of a semi-truck. At least you're brain will be intact to feel the pain. On the other hand if you have a skid and land on you're head, at least you won't go prematurely bald while healing. My vote is for choice, not enforcement. Personally i wear A helmet, although i'm dubious to how good it is at protecting, as the padding is smaller than most and the design was originally for extreme skiiers(who can reach high speeds on a steep descent) I certainly hope i never find out.

 

Remember the old? days , volvo drivers , anyone on a bike beware if see a volvo driver [out here 80-90's] , it was a psykology , the volvo drivers purchased a "safe" car , collisions not a problem in a volvo as they were sold as the safest car in the world at that time , so , they were so safe in psykology that a volvo was a tank just waiting to flatten a bike as they were relaxed and NOT driving safe as the volvo did the work , [now watch out for mercedes these days , the same drivers have upgraded] , also people in cages that drive with hats on , beware!!.

these things are/were known on the road by the road people , not in books or papers.....a "common knowledge".

The same can go for "some" people that put on a lid , a psykology of being safe or safer and the care might diminish as they are safe!..

same as seatbelts ect ect ect.

The issue seems to me not helmets whether safe or not but the law , if i wanted to zip up the shop without a lid why can i not do so if that was my want , i would wear one if wanted on a long trip or town maybe OR on a long trip out in the middle of nowhere i might [depending on circumstanses] not wear the lid and stick it on the rack if i had one.

I would forgo insurence for my right to decide and that is just the issue , my and others rights taken away and one is penalized if one breaks these self decisions to keep the money machine running at its most parasitik as the crunchers study without being known where they are from .

Pushbikes the same , when older [argument sake 20yo] , one should know by then iF or when to don a lid to go up to the local shop or not , little kids instructed to use as little then the desicions at a later age should be made by them not a parasitik entity that keeps us dumb , i tells ya you do not know whats coming , a dollar to breathe air , a new born kid brought into the world with a $5000 bill [as it is now] , the bill , a burial , a bill as that kid takes its first breath , number crunchers look that way , crunching away $$$ , its your fault the earth is the way it is so YOU pay for it , its already started , air tax .
[buy the way no mention how much kerosene is being burnt directly into the upper atmosphere every day , you heard that yet on da telly , big dollar interests there so keep it quite].

I agree as you might guess with the first post , not wether safe or not but the implication of said events.

yes i ramble on a bit , and just because that someone else has seen ded from helmets does not mean it does not happen , i made a statement and i saw and thats it , they ded......

So to round of with the calculator and keyboard , i am not against helmets/ seatbelts/ or people that use or do not use , i do not enjoy the law$...

i suppose that since i typed all this cr-p i better submit it

 

"You have to assume, like in Ben's case, that if you had a full-face helmet on you *may* not have any injuries at all"

That statement is the sort of stuff that worries me about all of this, and should worry you.
While it is 100% correct, it then stretched a no helmet law news story into not just a helmet law, but a full face helmet law. (disclaimer again: Most of the time I only wear full face quality AGV helmets myself). If Ben had worn an open face helmet, and had the same injuries as no helmet (broken jaw and nose), no one in the press would have mentioned a helmet law, because it would have confirmed for those opposed to helmet laws that a helmet did not help. If he had a full face helmet, and walked away unharmed, that would have also been all over the news in a no helmet required state, as proof helmets work.

So for those in favor of a helmet law, should this then be a mandatory full face helmet law? (yes, I am baiting)..

BTW, it's great that a controversial topic can be brought up here, yet everyone posts logical replies, with no flaming or arguing. I was a little worried with first post, but nice to see just a bunch of normal guys speaking ther minds! Thanks.

 

Here here! I agree with just about everything passed along here, and as HooNz pointed out, it is government meddling I'm opposed to. Let those who ride decide, but let the consequences of that choice be on the rider! I don't believe that the folks that have to clean up after a rider gets smeared all over the highway should have to go through all of that. I hope to leave a reasonably abused corps behind at the end of my days. I will continue to manage the risks and accept the outcome of my choices and I don't want anyone else to suffer for my choices. Of course I can reasonably expect that some folks will be unhappy at the time of my passing (which, by grace of God, won’t be anytime soon I hope), but if it is sooner rather than later, it won’t be because I wasn’t wearing my gear! Peace to each of you, thanks for the comments. I’ve enjoyed this discussion as well.

 

Seems the biggest issue is the personal one of nobody wants to be told what they can and can't do. While I agree with the sentiment, I don't agree with the principal. We are already controlled and contained in other areas, so what difference does one more restriction make.

You currently have the choice to wear a helmet or not. This is your simple choice.

Now put yourself in the position of a cager. Accidents happen far too often, but if the cager is in error and pulls out in front of a motorcycle and the rider takes a tumble, lands head first and dies because he wasn't wearing a helmet then the cager has to live with this for ever. Where was the cagers freedom of choice. A helmet may have saved that life slightly alleviating the cagers guilt. Accidents are not always a cager error (it happens, three cars rear ended by bikes this week in Perth) but the surviving driver still feels guilt.

So what you say. It's my life, I know the risks. Fair comment. Now go ask your family and friends if they will miss you. Sad fact is, it may be your life but many are affected by loss of one.

Another point made was , yes, you can get hit by a bus or a grand piano may drop out of a passing 747 and land on your head. All possible, but the odds are in favour of it not happening. Every time you throw a leg over the bike and turn the key the odds against you increase dramatically.

In summary, My opinion is if you don't want to wear a helmet, then take the bus. I would like to think each and every one of you will grow old and enjoy the thrills of life, love and parenthood. The joys of life worth enjoying. 8)

Now get your lid on and go cut some miles. :wink:

HG

 

I personally wear a full face helmet. I used to race and walked away alive more than once because of my helmet.

Rant on

The difference is, you give up something thinking that one more restriction isn't going to make a difference, then the next thing you know, you can't call anyone without permission, you can't go to the grocery store unless you send in an application and $10.00, you can't give someone an honest compliment without being brought up on Sexual Harrassment, the list could go on and on. Complacency is NOT what you want to do! If you believe is something, fight for it!

Rant Off

Now I would not be caught on a bike without a full face helmet. But that is me. I say if you live in a state that does not require helmets, then you SHOULD have to do something to compensate in case you get in an accident. For example, when you get your license, you state whether or not you are going to be a helmet wearer or not. If not, you pay a fee or extra on your insurance so that the taxpayers aren't paying for your vegitative state. If you state you are a helmet wearer and you get in an accident while not wearing a helmet, you should have to pay a fine and extra insurance (again to cover medical costs) or if you die, your immediate kin gets hit with the fee. Why next of kin? If they know they are going to have to pay some big money if you get in an accident without a helmet, they will work harder to make sure you do wear one. However it is still your choice.

Anyway, that is my $.02

 

I believe in helmets (full-face for me, thanks), but I also believe in freedom of choice. Without thinking TOO much about it (hey it's late/early), I like tazz's suggestion above - no helmet, manditory medical insurance payments. That could work.

I really don't get the guys who have the pretty, expensive full-face helmet strapped to the seat of the bike as they rip along. Actually, I do - they probably made a deals with their loved ones that they'd ONLY get a bike if they promised to wear a helmet. So they slap it on their heads, round the corner from home, stop, and park the helmet on the back seat to protect it. You paid for the damned thing - use it!

Another thing I don't get is that I know a lot of guys that ALWAYS wear helmets when snowmobiling, but won't on a bike. 'Cause that pavement is SO much more forgiving than the snow and trees.

 

It amazes me that some people object to helmet laws. If you have any common sense whatsoever you shouldn't need the law to force you to wear a helmet. Apparently some are still stupid enough not to wear helmets and the cops/EMTs are sick of scraping dead bodies off of the road, so now there's laws saying you have to wear helmets. Same deal with seatbelts in cars (click it or ticket law). Riding without a helmet is a bad idea at anytime, even on a bicycle. Helmets have saved my life more than once on mountain bikes. There's no way I will ever ride a motorcycle without one.

 

Whilst i do not understand the sentiment , as depends on where who and how , but i'll tell ya this , On a lovely spring day not a car in sight and generally out of town the smells of flowers ect a crisp breeze either just pegging 80ks[50mph] or doing better than that IS a experience to have.

car drivers called in a cage!

Bike riders soon to be in their own psyko logical "cage" soon , too damn scared to Fart incase they blow up.....

seriously , as time goes on wimps progress.

 

Rant on.

I don't think we need a law to mandate helmet wearing.

I don't like the fact that people who don't wear helmets and have accidents are a drain on the medical system but I don't think this is an arguement motorcyclists as a body should follow - certainly any motorcyclist in the same accident as a cager is going to require more medical attention than the cager - see where I'm going with that? If we legislate helmet use on this point then aren't we saying we should also legislate not riding a motorcycle in the first place? This is a slippery slope arguement and as such is pretty flimsy...

I do think people who don't wear a helmet are absolutely insane. I have heard ridiculous stories about how a helmet actually hurt somebody instead of helped them. Stuff like they hit a guard rail and the helmet made their head spin so they snapped their neck. You hit a guard rail! What exactly would have made it less worse if you weren't wearing a helmet?

Myth 1: You can't hear. Yes you can. Infact I bet you can actually hear better with a helmet than with out one. Probably the best you can possibly hear on a bike is in a helmet with ear plugs. The problem on a motorcycle isn't that things are too quiet it is that they are too loud. When things are too loud you can't hear the quiet things - like the non-helmet wearer's story about hearing a car behind them which they couldn't have heard with a helmet on. Bollocks. I hear cars just fine. I also don't hear the wind roaring and my ears don't ring after a real ride.

Myth 2: You can't see. Right... do we have to answer this one? With a proper visor your eyes aren't dried to hell by wind, they're certainly more relaxed and don't fatique as much. You've also got the added bonus that a visor, unlike a nice pair of Oakleys will protect you from a pigeon. One day I had a pigeon smash the mirror off my bars... imagine that to the face? I've gotten several sparrows off the helmet - a bit spooky but not dangerous... with no helmet and a pair of oakleys what would have happened? What about the constant bombardment of pebbles and road dirt. Sorry - I'm never going to be ridding without my visor.

Myth 3: The helmet caused more damage than if you had not been wearing a helmet. Can someone describe a reasonable feasible story where this is true. The general story I've heard is that it lead to someones neck being broken. I'm sorry - if you hit something hard enough to break your neck, you also hit it hard enough to seriously smash in your skull. Remember it doesn't have to break your skull to kill you, only rattle your brain about and cause bleeding... I can not for the life of me invision the perfectly wrong accident that the extra weight of the helmet caused a persons neck to break that without the helmet wouldn't have. Remember that current full face helmets are really much lighter than they were a few years ago even.

So to me helmets have innumerable benefits and very few draw backs.

Cons? They do cost money. They do take a few seconds to put on. Maybe they aren't as cool as a bandanna?

With the helmet on - I can still smell the flowers... I can still feel the wind... with the helmet on I feel safer and I can enjoy the ride.

Ridding a bike is a risk but you can choose to mitigate some of the risk. You can choose to wear a helmet, wear a jacket, wear appropriate boots, gloves and pants... take a rider safety course and ride defensively.

If mitigating the risks of ridding a motorcycle makes me less of a rider - well I suppose I'll just have to accept that as well. Mean while I'm quiet happy to zip through the country roads without tasting the fauna


Rant off.

Woot.

 

Helmet laws........ that would suck.

How will I ever be able to drink my morning coffee, while smoking a cigeratte, and talking on a cell.

They should make helmet manditory, same as wearing jeans and some type of boots, had a coworker decide to be a dumb ass, and drive his crotch rocket like the idiot that he is, the paper stated that the cop clocked him at 101 mph and started to chase, after loosing sight of the bike, the cop was going to discontinue the chase, when he came up over a hill and saw the bike laying in the road.... and yup you guessed it, he was balled up in the ditch, bleeding to death, he ended up with 70% of his body looking like meat with areas down to bare bone....... and yup everyone guessed right, he had on a pair of shorts, shoes, and a t-shirt. Probably the only smart thing that this shithead did was put his helmet on, no due to his stupidity, the guys in his department have to work extra hours to cover up for his being gone.

Point of this WEAR YOU PROTECTIVE GEAR. I always wear jeans, combat boots (prior service army), some type of jacket/sweatshirt, earplugs, and full face shield HELMET.

Just my 2 cents worth, and I'll probably get change back from it.

 

HooNz - you keep talking about people being killed by helmets but you've never described how.

--

Someone made a good point about a car hitting a biker... if the biker was wearing a helmet the hospital trip would cost one ammount, if the biker was not wearing a helmet a hospital trip could/would cost more. Where the cager didn't choose to hit either rider, and the rider had choosen not to wear a helmet, why should the cager be as responsible for the damages to the helmet less rider... very interesting thought because you could apply this to wearing different gear - or even a cage hitting another cage. The very fine line between personal protective gear and the varying protection surrounding the person in the form of a cage.

--

If one were to mandate helmets - would you also mandate gear on the same grounds? What constitutes gear and what level of protection does that constitute.

Some believe gear is a helmet, vest, jeans, short gloves and sneakers.

Some like myself wear, a ballastic jacket, ballistic pants, leather reinforced gloves, helmet, tall motorcycle ballastic boots and ear plugs.

Some people wear one piece purpose built suits, helmet, armoured gloves and boots....

What level of protection would be reasonable to expect if one thought it was reasonable to legislate helmet wearing? Think outside what you consider appropriate... think from other people's perspectives; The helmet free guy, the tourer, the 'racer' and the summer coffee shop guy.

I can't decide what is appropriate for everyone, however, I can decide to wear what I think is appropriate. Isn't that what the whole freedom debate is about? The freedom to be an idiot... ok that last was a bit of a jab/joke.

Woot.

 

I'm sorry, I draw a different conclusion from this story: don't ride like a squid, and don't try to outrun the cops.

He wasn't obeying existing basic traffic laws, what would a 'protecive gear' law have done to protect him from himself? Squat.

Maybe I missed something? :roll:

 

Golf clap for Oblivion

 

Hey whats this pick on HooNz bit woot? , i have only mentioned once about da ded helmets so where's this "you keep on mentioning".

And i explained!.

SO HERE'S BACK TO YOU With the helmet on - I can still smell the flowers... I can still feel the wind... with the helmet on I feel safer and I can enjoy the ride.

The operative key word there is Makes you feel Safer , did own volvo?

Sometimes i can see when sentiment creeps in i see a pack of robots on motorcycles all with the same padding / boots/ gloves /helmets / by the law! ect ect that all feel safe Yet still get ded or broken at some point in time who will blame who/what then? maybe its the motorcycle's fault? , i know the manufacturers of said items will be laughing all the way to the bank fer sure.

Should invent a self timing "flower" smell inside da helmet and then it could be fully isolated from the enviroment just like in the preditor movie and then even a shoulder laser to do people that don't like helmet laws even maybe never take it off...

As far as scraping people up off the road goes if they no like it go and find another job! no one is forcing them , i smoke and i enjoy it , what next no FARTING in public? a law! in amongst all that pollution , they already working on that you know , experiments over in new zealand on how to stop animals from farting , the excuse its bad for the planet , they even have a birth tax as that animal will fart during its life so a fart tax [look it up] , soon to be implimented to human animals you watch , as to fart in their spaceship might or will kill em , boy o boy i have fun..........

BSE =feeding waste animal products to plant feeders , i have no sympathy , they "deserve ".
Sheep that die if not shorn.
Permenently lactating cows that are walking bones.
Bird flu , looked at a caged farm?.
list goes on and on , humans? heading there too=Robot Fodder.

So in amongst all that above is the link back to the first post , the implication of laws and their implication....and of course Alien

ya ever wondered who hollabak girl is yabbering about when asking "who is this maniac" ? amongst others [and by the way , i have throttled on just before the hit]

And since you are in Twain's country , could you please send a message that "i am waiting"

implications woot , read em and weep , .Defense off.

as one could see i'm positive about being negative....

 

Troll much?

Actually you mentioned it twice in this thread alone. I seem to remember you mentioning it before too but I haven't gone back to look:

It doesn't matter how many times you say it - if it is the truth then why not explain it to us - the people who don't understand how a helmet could hurt us?

If you are saying that because I wear a helmet I might ride like an idiot and die in a crash as a result of this bad driving, then I understand what you are saying. I disagree of course, I would say that I died in the crash because I was driving like an idiot. The helmet is piece of safety gear not an imputus to drive like an idiot.

To slice that one even finer, I am sure there are people who do feel bullet proof with gear on thus proving your point but at the same time could you not also say they were idiots before they put the gear on.

I'm sure we can both agree that idiots shouldn't ride motorcycles?

 

Of course helmets are harmful. And I can prove it.

Had a mate many years ago riding down the street at 10 mph with a full face helmet on. Cage pulled out in front of him and he fell off and face planted onto the road. Helmet pushed back and broke his nose. No doubt about it they can cause damage.


Nowhere near the damage a face plant without a helmet would have caused though.

 

Ok woot i see i have done 134 posts [they accrue quickly] , and i no looked either as i could only recall the first but as the quotes are there and cannot be argued with the ones listed is the first and the other is the response , so even if there is 1 more "you keep mentioning" out of 134 sort of is a overstatement , that was my inference , also like quoted i have responded and that was that..

Helmets like seatbelts can do harm , the issue is and always will be is the blanket propaganda of they {like seatbelts} are Failsafe.

It seems to me some times its turning into a belief rather than the facts , and saying that a number cruncher can come up with facts through magority numbers and yet still say the other numbers do not happen or deny them , in my view that is what is false about the number issue...

sure thing too , some people should not contemplait bikes , is in their makeup and do not know any better but i says its not their fault and that is what i do not enjoy being penalised for , remember the bikie saga , 1 bikie does whatever and all bikie / biker and motorcycle riders payed for it and still do.
On tv with the movies , the viewers [thats what those bikies are like] [thats what motorcylists do] as a viewer , same as some people sees them and [that looks like fun i'll get a bike] , not knowing the reality of the human frame and the actual lawless ness and positive bias (look up valve/tube bias , positive bias destroys the device) which is already there and has been for a long time , it gets very involved in my view and to type that all would be a subject in itself and brings in {insurance policys, do not admit guilt , sales ect] very shallow and insidious stuff i think.

And i think i'll make a clarity too , woot , i know say anythink about you personally regarding the first post issue what you do you do also if you feel its about yourself because you wear a helmet wellllllllllll i wear one too as its law! i don't speed on da bike either [cough cough] as its against the law too , i really enjoy to ride like a idiot sometimes and enjoy.

If anyone wants to put flowers on their helmet or no helmet with a flower behind the ear that has nothing to do with me , secretly i might think they look a nitwit as it might look that way but as its there perogative just as mine i feel , so why should i make a law against it.

And regarding idiots? who would have told them to put it on in the first place? , SO IS THE IDIOT AS YOU SAY THE IDIOT OR THE IDIOT THATS DOIN THE IDIOTING.

this should be in the joke section. or maybe a Zen

Funeral parlors applaud when someone dies
Funeral parlors applaud when someone born

If i ever to get to know the little second of my dedness , i will get to a big court come lawhouse and make sure i stink that place out and they pay for my carcass removal [i'll hide in a cupboard] .........

Hard to imagine all this from a post on another completEly diFFernt subject , and that is Most laws stink [excuse the pun].

 

To break this all down simply:

Should there be a helmet law: No... I'm not sure there should be.
Should people wear helmets: Yes I think so.

Can seatbelts cause fatalities: In some strange circumstances yes. Getting trapped or held in a position to get harmed.

Do seatbelts cause more harm than good: No. In most accidents that I am aware of the seatbelt did far more good than harm. We call them cages as a joke - but being held inside the cage protects the passengers from what is outside the cage. It is only when you set the cage on fire or have the cage hit so hard that it can't protect the people inside that they get harmed.

Do helmets cause more harm than good: I don't think so. I've never had a scenario explained to me that makes sense where the helmet caused more harm than would have incurred if they had of not being wearing a helmet.

I wear a seatbelt because it would protect me more oftan than it would hurts me. I think the helmet protects more frequently than harms - even more so than the seatbelt. So I wear my helmet for the protection.

would like to know how the helmet could hurt me. Could you explain that to me. If I am missing something then please let me know.

If we could show that helmets cause harm then maybe as a group we could make an informed arguement as to why helmets should never be manditory. It certainly would help explain to lawmakers that it is not cut and dry wouldn't it?

 

I'll agree with Hoonz that helmets can cause damage. As an example, I've read of cases where the extra weight of the helmet does indeed contribute to neck damage in an accident. However, these are isolated incidents, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, wearing a helmet has prevented injury, not contributed to injury. Not wearing a helmet because of possible helmet-caused injury would be like not using smoke alarms because of a fear of hearing loss...