Clutchless Shifting

Polock posted a link to a website that has numerous articles about riding techniques. While reading through them, I came upon one that I've been doing for quite some time now. It reminded me that I was going to throw a poll up here to see how many other riders do the same.

Here's the quote from the article that reminded me:

So, how many of you always use the clutch? Sometimes use the clutch? And almost never use the clutch?

Bonus questions: if you're one that doesn't use the clutch to upshift, do you also downshift without it? And, if so, do you find you ride with just one hand a lot? Answer below.

 

sometimes. i cant get a smooth shift when downshifting without the clutch, especially in the lower gears so i do use the clutch for downshifting.

 

Downshifting is a bit tricky, for sure. I've found that if you put pressure on the shifter then blip the throttle a little, it'll pop into gear fairly easy. Not always smooth, but so far it works the best.

 

I used to drive an 18 wheeler (16) yrs and the only time I used the clutch was to start and stop. But a bike? I will try it and get back to you on this.

 

I do mostly clutched shifting. It seems that there would be far less wear on the mechanicals. I mean, think about it would you rather be pushed hard on the shoulder or punched in the shoulder. Also it puts unnecessary strain on the shift forks trying to pull a gear out when there is still pressure between the bearing surfaces of the gear teeth. Sure, if you are perfectly matched for revs and the bike is coasting under no load either accell or decell then sure it might be the same but how often is that going to be the case?

 

Considering the UNGAWDLY hassle involved in getting to the tranny if you break a cog, I would use the clutch. Racebike, different story, but resurrected 20+ year-old classic street bike? Clutch is much easier to fix...

 

I'm with you BigFitz, MUCH easier to replace a clutch than broken tranny parts.

 

Yeah, but do you realize how fast you can scream through the gears without using the clutch? I personally think Yamaha did an excellent job when designing this transmission. Upshifting shouldn't be a big deal for this gearbox.

 

Where I ride if you SCREAN through the gears on my 750 you will get a high speed driving award.

 

You can upshift without using the clutch but downshifting is an entirely different story. Ever ride with a broken clutch cable?? Waddle Waddle Waddle, Ok I am going fast enough to put it into either first or second. Gear changes from 2nd to third are easy but downshifting always felt like I was trying to slam it in gear. Finding neutral was a crapshoot at best.. Now when I was racing my 550 I used the clutch, Never seemed to slow me down even tho the guy that I was racing against most of the timedidnt use the clutch on upshifts. We were on the same engine and never seemed to pull me becuase of a shift. LOL it usually came to who can out draft who on the last lap or who was getting tired first (usually me). But dam could I get away on the starts!!!

Sean

 

when i am racing i will tap the clutch so i can hold the throttle pegged

 

I have only done the clutchless when I had a cable brake or in my pickup when the slave cylinder went ad. Other than that nope it doesn't take that much effort to pull the lever in and IMO save wear on the bike. I would much rather pull the basket and pop in plates than replace a gear, or shift fork on these bikes.

 

2nd gear gets me well into Performance Award territory. I wear a hi-viz dorksuit and a bright yellow helmet - I don't need MORE attention from the po-po by 'screaming through the gears' any faster than I do with a 10th of a second burned by clutching.

If I need that extra time, something has gone horribly wrong.

 

Helical gears will easily and automatically engage with each other IF THEIR ROTATIONAL SPEEDS ARE THE SAME. The purpose of synchronizer rings or their equivalent is merely to slow the speed of the two gears that are about to be engaged to the same rotational speed....once that is accomplished, shifter lever pressure is enough to cause the gears to engage (regardless of what the differing sizes of the two gears are).

This is why vehicles with unsynchronized gears....such as the truck that grimreaper used to drive.....can be successfully shifted all day long without the use of a clutch. It's also why you hear the engne speed being "blipped" right before a gear change.......the gear on the OUTPUT SHAFT is turning at a speed that is determined via the road speed of the vehicle (since it is being directly turned via mechanical connection to the rear wheels). The gear that you are trying to manipulate into engagement is mechanically engaged to the INPUT SHAFT, and by "blipping" the throttle slightly, you are able to manipulate that gear's speed through a range of rotational speed. If you are also putting even slight pressure on the gear shifter engagement mechanism at the same time, as soon as the manipulated gear reaches the same rotational speed as the output shaft gear, you get instant engagement.

The use of a clutch....which disengages the entire input shaft and associated gears from a direct, forced rotational speed connection that is the same as the engine speed.....merely allows the synchronizers to slow down the input gear more precisely and more quickly.

The exact same process can be accomplished by keeping the clutch engaged, and varying the speed of the engine (gently blipping the throttle) and the gears don't know the difference.............

 

EXACTLY!

 

Hmm..I'll have to try that this weekend and see how it goes.

 

hmm okay so after reading this yesterday of course I had to at least try it out... actually it it is pretty darn smooth when you get the throttle and R's in the right spot. So now I guess I may pickup another habit if I get lazy or just don't feel the need to pull in the lever...

 

a lot of drag racers will install an ignition cutout that has a pressure sensitive switch on the shifter....you can hold it wide open and just keep pulling up into the next gear. when you start pulling up it trips the switch that will momentarily cut spark just long enough to stumble the engine and get into the next gear, i havent heard of any premature tranny issues from anyone who uses a cutout. i was halfway thinking of putting one on my quad and trying it out.

CHECK IT OUT

 

Like grimreaper, I drive big trucks, and only use a clutch when coming to or leaving a stop. On the bike, though, I always use the clutch. Except when I forget.

 

There's no trouble.
Trouble.
Asking for trouble ... and, ...
Begging for trouble!

I think "Clutchless Shifting" these XJ-Bikes would be:

Begging for it!
Unless the guy behind me has a firearm and is closing the distance to put me within range ... I'm using the Clutch to make the shifts.

 

Me too Rick. no need to do this unless you are racing.

 

well, im a half and half person, when im in traffic or have a rider on the back i use the clutch religiously, but when running on the open road i tend to put my clutch hand on my knee and pop the gears with a little throttle bump, very smooth if you get em timed right, hellishly harsh if you dont.

 

In 40 plus years of riding I have rarely used the clutch to upshift. Also I rarely "scream through the gears". In particular my XS11 has a VERY loud clunky shift using the clutch, without it you cannot hear any noise from the tranny while shifting, it is smooth, quiet and effortless. My 650 Maxim is about the same. Downshifting is a little different, works well at lower speeds if you know the proper rpm but I don't usually do it that way.

 

it's better to have some experience doing it and feel comfortable with it should the time ever come that you may have to
hotdog buns just don't last too long under the cargo net
the beverage is still too cold to throw, but you need to get to the other softball field
you need to scratch your nose, check your pocket or use your left hand for something else and need to maintain the pace of traffic
it can be done, it won't kill your bike and you should be able to do it

 

God put the clutch on the motor bike for a reason, dont use it and your XJ will go to Hell, its a manual, not an automatic like a kid's 50 cc bike.

 

Done properly, there's nothing worng with it and no damage will occur, I've ridden them for years like this and have yet to damage any gearbox

I remember reading a road test on a XS1100 when they were new and the road tester pronounced the upshift better without the clutch

On my TZ250 superkart it was clutchless both up (igniton cut out) and down (just bash it through)after two seasons racing there was no visible damge at all

 

Very true. The problem is that very few people can or will "do it properly", and doing it improperly will result in premature and VERY expensive gear failure.

 

I tried it out last evening a bit, got the hang of it on the second try with no hitches whatsoever from there on out. That said, I don't plan to make a habit of it, but I suppose it's a good thing to know how to do.

 

This threads been a good read.
I always called it, the perfect shift.
Where you barely pull the clutch, 1/4"-1/2" and tap the shifter.
It goes into gear so smooth and shifts up with no drop in rpm.
Just keeps accelerating at the same pace.
Now I now why this happens.
And you guys are right this shift point is not at 8.5 K.

 

Very true. I used to shift my '63 Corvair up and down all day and only use the clutch to start off. BUT it takes PRACTICE, a lot of it, and you very well CAN break a gearbox while in the "practice" phase (experience here...) My point is that the major hassle of a broken tranny in an XJ IS NOT worth the .10 of a second per shift...the gears DO KNOW the difference if you get it wrong...

 

So are you saying that if I blow up my tranny trying this, you'll fix it for me? :wink:

Dean

 

The practice of shifting gears without employing the clutch is a racing technique.
I suppose when money and fame are on-the-line and the difference between the Checkered Flag and a roll of toilet paper is measured in eye blinks; you don't use the clutch ... you just make the up-shift.

The racers have nothing in common with us.

Their bikes are new, maintained by teams of professional mechanics and the spare bike is all tuned and ready if something should happen to any of the first bike's transmission components.

If a racer develops a transmission problem he parks the bike, mentions it to a Crew Chief, who mentions it to the Top Wrench, who tells the mechanical team to call the Sponsor, order a new engine and put the bad one on the pile.

If you develop a transmission problem in your damn-near 30-year-old bike; you get to park the bike and boot the computer so you can tell the XJ-Bikes Community how you don't have second gear any more.
You'll be able to search the archives and read the stories of everybody who said it was OK and nothing ever happens. Except to you!

Then, you can rummage through the household's "Junk Drawer" for a Magic Marker to make your "For Sale -- Needs Work" sign and wait to see if anybody will offer you short money for what you used to have so much fun riding around before you read the Thread about "Clutchless Shifting" and decided to try it for yourself.

If you start clutchless shifting your old bike; you're playing Russian Roulette!
So what if 99 out of 100 times you survive.
Not win! You don't win playing Russian Roulette. You simply dodged a bullet!

I can't remember there ever being a good news article about something that happened to somebody who was playing with a loaded gun!

 

EGGZACHARY!!!

 

Well put Rick!

 

Clutchless UPshifting is harmless. The whole point of the clutch is to unload the drivetrain while you shift between gears. If you coordinate the upshift with the rolling off of the throttle, there is enough backlash in the gears that they will be transmitting NO power through them, and the gears will shift effortlessly.

 

I remember when I worked on a farm summers during high school. We had an old International dump truck that had no synchronizers in the transmission. I had to double clutch it to get smooth shifts.... those were the good old days. After a while I had that old truck figured out completely and could shift all the gears, up or down, without a clutch (except for first gear and reverse of course).

I have shifted my Maxim a few times without a clutch just to feel it out, and have gotten it to shift smoothly a few times. When you get it right its as smooth as a baby a$$ but when you don't it sounds ugly. But generally I am too busy concentrating on driving safely to allocate so much brain power to shifting without clutch.

 

I shift clutchless quite often... and there's no drag or any advantage or disadvantage... I just go hard off the throttle, change gears and continue.
Doing it out of first/into second would be dumb, though.
No troube in any of the other gears as long as you get off the throttle for a second.

 

Shift responsibly.

 

the clutch is mandatory for starting, stopping, and friction synchronized trannies (not on our bikes).

i think you will find that unless a racer is using a cutout, they will actually use the clutch so the throttle can be held wide open.

with proper throttle control, clutchless shifting is putting no more stress on the dogs than if the clutch were fully pulled in. since i have been doing it more and more i find it to be smoother with less audible geartrain "slap" than if i were to use the clutch.

without proper throttle control, you will be shredding dogs.

shift how you want, as will i. understand how these trannies work/shift/mesh before you preach about the damage a proper clutchless shift is doing.

 

Even not using a cutout, they won't use a clutch, I know I don't and I know they guys I race with dont

 

i find it almost impossible on my race machines to move the shifter while wide open, the choice is to clutch or let off. i have proven for myself, that letting off the throttle to shift is almost a half second slower by the time you reach top speed, than if you hold it WO and pull the clutch enough to make the shift.

to each his own i guess.

 

I use the clutch to go from first to second and after that I can get smoother shifts without using the clutch. But I have been riding this bike for 14 years so I kinda know what it likes and where it likes to shift at. Going down is another story and I almost always use the clutch. I had the bike fall over when it was parked on blacktop and busted the clutch lever off one finger width away from the pivot point. I needed both hands to pull it in so I could start off after that I had to shift both up and down without a clutch back home. This was about a 20 min ride with a few stops and lights but I took the back roads and rolled through the stops and timed the lights so I did not have to completely stop. I would have had a nice tow bill if I had not been able to shift without a clutch. It's a good thing to be able to do but to each their own.

 

i had a suicide shifter on the cases made of vise grips once....it was cool, but got old quick so i only used it to start and stop.

 

Well, today it happened- - pulled the clutch and felt a "POP" which was the second to last cable strand to break, the next pull broke the last.
Was on a 100 mile ride to the salvage yard, it broke 7 miles from home.
This thread came to mind. Timing the traffic at red lights is the hard part.
I pulled to the far right edge and idled in first, waiting for the green, then carefully picked a "sleeper" in a SUV to merge in front of. I had to shut down once at a stop sign. I chose to start in neutral, duck walk, and jam into 1st. Starting in first might overload the chain guides?? a problem area on XJ's??

I think everyone should practice clutchless riding but it should not be done on a regular basis. Remember- - FRAGILE ! HANDLE WITH CARE !

 

Clutch is there for a reason. I would no more ride a bike and not use it than I'd drive my Son's PT Cruiser and not use it. JMOOC

 

The article refers to "modern gearboxes", which I would argue ours aren't.
I always use the clutch.

The only real trick I've found is when going into neutral, it helps to bring the RPMs up to 2K, then shift into neutral.

 

your son's pt cruiser has tight tolerance back cut multi plate synchronizers, so it wont work. a bike transmission however, its fine.

one of my race machines has a sealed bottom end from 2003, and is still shifting perfectly. it very rarely gets shifted with the clutch.

when done properly, shifting without the clutch is smoother than using it. its not the easiest to do when you are putting in traffic, so in those situations i do use the clutch.

everybody should be capable of doing it, as TIMEtoRIDE said based on his recent experience.

 

Both of my XJs are perfectly happy upshifting without the clutch. I rev just past the normal shift point, apply slight pressure on the shifter, and let the revs drop just a bit. The bike shifts into next gear almost on its own...

 

Starting in first would require hacking the standard electrics. It's a no go safety.

Glad you got home safely. I'm glad to have towing coverage and better, a bunch of local friends with trucks and trailers. That's WAY too much risk around where I ride unless it was about 3.:00 a.m.

 

There's one big difference between our bikes and the trucks. (I too have spent some time in a big rig) When a trucker shifts he pauses in neutral while the input drive gear speed matches the driven gear speed of the gear being engaged.
I'll have to give this a try.