Starter circuit issue-getting closer!

So, working on the bike a little bit at a time between some other projects. Thought I'd pull the batt to see what condition it was in. Well, it was split open on two sides, probably no charge and froze during one of our lovely New England winters. So I took an extra car batt & jumpers over to check out the elect system.

Seem like most of the circuits work, lights, directionals, front brake light.

Hit the starter switch & the lights dimmed a lot. Checked connections, didn't see any thing. Fuses were really corroded, so I did a quick clean up on those hoping that was it. No luck after the cleaning, but the main fuse got really hot..

Connection on starter side looked very clean. Same with starter relay. Only spent 1 hr on this before it got dark.

Does the side stand need to be up to start the bike? it was down, but that wouldn't cause the hot circuit.

Also, I assume the brake light should also come on with the rear brake; I assume it's the switch, or adjustment?

So, next step?

Jump Relay?

What else?

Thanks for the patience with this newbie.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

The side stand can be down as long as the bike is in neutral. You should also check your groeund connection to the frame and the engine. If the acid went right down I think there is a ground wire just below the battery box. Good Luck

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

MN, thanks, there was just a little bit of corrosion under the batt box. I did ground the jumper directly to a few spots on the frame. I'm gonna check the starter relay tomorrow.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

Cleaned & checked all the grounds with a meter, they all seem good, I think I'm gonna pull the starter tomorow, probably hung up from sitting for so long. Looks like an easy job.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

A lot of corrosion in the fuse box equals resistance. Too much resistance equals heat. Clean, clean, clean all your connections, wires, terminals, etc. As for the starter, you can hook your jumper cable directly to the positive lead going to the starter. If she spins the engine with no problems, your starter is good (make sure the bike is in neutral before doing this). Also, when doing this, hook the negative lead to the engine case somewhere.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

Clenaed all the fuse block connections also, don;t get hot now, still not starter action.

uess I'll have to pull it.

Oh, yea, I did run power directly to the starter also.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

don't know about your starting problem but I know my rear break light switch was bad and put a new one in for around 10 or 12 bucks, fixed the problem. Let me now if you need 1 I got a couple onhand.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

Interesting about the rear break light switch, it seems as though my brake light wasn't coming on with the foot pedal, but it was with the handlebar. I'll try jumping the switch; but come to think of it that woudln't cause the lights to dim.

I'll keep you posted.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

Hi Folks! I just acquired an '83 XJ750R. The owner told me the starter would spin, but not engage. Also sometimes the starter would sometimes spin slowly when the key was in the ON position. Can you guy's guide me to the next move?

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

I'm not positive about this, but am thinking that a certain rotational speed is required for the starter clutch to engage properly. I'm betting you're not meeting it. Why? I'd bet weak battery or poor connection to the starter. Have the battery tested to verify its integrity.

Also, if you have more questions, you may want to start your own thread so that this one remains devoted to solving roverguy's problem.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

I have a yamaha xj700 maxim 1985. I"ve been having problems with my starter button getting stuck.I turn my key switch, thenth e on button and before I get to the start button my bike is turning over,and when it starts the oil light is on and stays on.I hear something like the starter is stuck. can someone please help me with this problem.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

Back from our commercial announcements:

Spent a little while today & I think I am narrowing in on my problem.

First, I pulled the starter, 5 minute job to see if maybe it was frozen. It spins pretty freely, so I went onto the circuit. I put an ohm meter on the relay (solenoid) & pressed the started switch with the key on, nothing. I wiggled the key & the circuit closed. So I sparyed a liberal dose of contact cleaner in the switch & pushed it 5-10 times & it got a little better. After a few more sprays & actuations it seems like it is completing the circuit.

Got called away to my sons soccer practice so it will have to wait for another day to try it with a battery.

Stay tuned.

P.S. does the ign shut of switch need to be pushed down towards the back with the red showing to run the bike?

Thanks again.

 

Re: Starter circuit issue

Sparky, please do follow Gamaru's advice and start your own thread. It is impolite to thread-jack others. Thanks for your understanding.

Roverguy, time to pull the ignition switch out and clean the switch plate and wiper up good! I've found green goo growing in a few of them along with dried out grease so now would be a good time to freshen things up a bit. Be sure to lube it back up with some dielectric grease before closing it all back up. It is also possible that your switch plate is fractured (old age, abuse, who knows how).

 

Re: Starter circuit issue-Progress

So, pulled the starter Sunday & cleaned it out, some carbon from the brushed and lightly emory clothed the armature, relubed the bushings. Probably didn't need it, but it only took an hr start to finish. So reinstalled the starter, but still nothing. Decided to do a direct short across the solenoid & the starter spun, but did not engage. Pulled it again & couldn't see what was wrong. I don't have the manual, but it appears as thought since there is no starter dog on the starter it self, that the gear in side the transmission case is it? The gear spins freely in one drect, but not the other. I don't see how the gear would engage & pull back after the bike starts. It seems as though the direction the starter turns is in the direction that would cause the gear to turn in the free spinnning direction.

Is this correct?

I don't see that I could have re-wired the circuit incorrectly & caused the starter to turn in the wrong direction..

Oh, also, I pulled the tank and found the remnants of a mouse nest, fortunately, no chewed wires, but I cleaned all the contact on the connectors & found the start cicuit relay was not getting power until I cleaned the connection. Now at least I can spin the starter over fron the start switch!

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

Your observations are correct, the gear inside the case is it. The starter clutch has sprags in it to allow one direction only for power transmission while leaving the starter alone once the engine has caught and is transmitting rotation back up the chain.
Have you opened up your ignition switch yet?

 

Robert, no haven't opened up the switch yet, it seems to be operating fine now, based upon my ohm meter. It is making contact every time.

I should have looked at the parts diagram be fore I posted my question, but I am enjoying trouble shooting some of these items. I helps ease the tension of the day, esp since I don;t need the bike for transport.

So looks like I have to open up the side cover of the tranny to get to the starter clutch. My guess is the greas is caked from lack of use.

Any issues I ned to know about opening up the cover?

Thanks

 

I'm sorry Roverguy, I hope you don't need to split the case. Here is to hoping you can accomplish the process throught the alternator hole.

 

Are you sure the engine isn't seized?

Have you pulled the plugs to make sure the cylinders weren't full of water or fuel?

Did you remove the left-hand cover (where the pick-ups are) so you could turn the crank with a wrench to make sure everything was free spinning?

Are you positive that your battery is up to cranking the engine?

These are just some questions I'd want to answer before splitting the case.

 

Are you sure the engine isn't seized?

Yea, I was able to turn over the cyls by rocking in gear when I sprayed the fog oil in.

Have you pulled the plugs to make sure the cylinders weren't full of water or fuel?

Yep, clean

Did you remove the left-hand cover (where the pick-ups are) so you could turn the crank with a wrench to make sure everything was free spinning?

Don't know about this, the left hand cover (8" round cover) to the left of the starter? That's what I thought I have to pull to get access to the starter clutch.

What pick ups?

I'll have to look at the parts manual online.

Are you positive that your battery is up to cranking the engine?

Yes used a good automotive, are you saying that if the motor isn't spinning fast enough it woudn't engage the clutch?

So, if all else fails is this a big job??

 

If it is the clutch, yes it is a big job. One method of repair involves entering the alternator hole as mentioned before. It is a time intensive approach and, as Rick points out, you'd better have steady hands. There is an extensive write-up on this proceedure although the author's name escapes me at the moment.
The next "least" invasive proceedure requires entry through the sump, requiring the bike be inverted. Also time and labor intensive but does not require the disassembly of the bike. This process is outlined on another forum and we have the links to it around here somewhere (you get to look).
The third and recommended process is pulling the engine and splitting the case. At this point it would be wise to mention that if you have gone this far, you should also replace certain high-time parts that are certain to fail in due time. The starter clutch chain guide is a known problem. Replace for about $20. Rebuild the starter clutch. New seals. It isn't too expensive to get in there and replace/rebuild the mentioned assemblies (about $100 normally). If I had the time, my preference would be for pulling the motor and doing it right. Just my 2 cents.

 

Here's a picture I tool back in May that shows what I'm referring to:

 

Gamaru, you always have the most relavent pictures seemingly at hand in a moments notice! How do you do it???

 

This is a depressing finding, is it a common occurance for the starter clutch to stick/fail, with only 11,000 miles. Could it be because it has been sitting? :cry:

Is it possible I did something wrong when I pulled & re-installed the starter?

It spins very fast when I hit the key, I assume its' spinning the idler gear, but the clutch isn't engaging.

I hate to say it, but this could be the deal breaker on my project as I just don't have the time/$ to invest in this bike. I was hoping 40-50hrs of work here & there with $400-$500 in parts to get a rolling resto to tool around with in the spring.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to throw in the towel. Remember, you can take the low cost route and just pull the alternator to enter from there. A "quickie" rebuild should run under $30 for springs and rollers. Contact Chacal and see what all he recommends. Of course it goes without saying that you have some idea what is wrong with the clutch to begin with.
I doubt you put the starter in incorrectly (it onlly fits in one way and you would know it if it didn't seat properly). but if I remember right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), one of our members had a starter clutch fragment on him. There was no other option but to pull and replace. If the bike sat for a long time, it is within the realm of plausibility that there is some sticking going on and a few heat/cool cycles will free it up, especially if you run some SeaFoam or Marvel Mystery Oil in the case to help clean things up. Have you done an oil change yet? If not, this is an opportune time to throw some in the sump. If you just changed it, bummer.

 

Robert:

No haven't changed the oil yet. I started to pull out the gen this afternoon, but ran out of time. The starter clutch is in line behind it, correct? Couldn't I get a good shot at spraying it down to see if it is gunked up with the generator out?

As I stated before this bike is still a ways from being a runner. Just pulled off the tank to drain & need to do the carbs, I'm sure they are bogged down.

Also, even with those thnigs done, unless I can roll start it, which isn't likely after the carbs have been apart, how do I start it to let the seafoam do it's stuff?

p.s. I put a fresh auto batt on the jumpers today to see if more juice would do it, no dice, the starter motor just spins away.

 

If you haven't changed the oil, great! You should pull the alternator/rotor and shaft. Inspect the starter clutch (you will be able to see the front of it) for cracks and the like. If it looks intact, HOSE it down with either brake cleaner or the like (inside the clutch pack, not the outside) and attempt to spin it by hand. Work the chemical in there and let it sit for a few minutes. Rinse, repeat. After a few dousings, change the oil and filter and add Marvel Mystery Oil to the change. You can run that but mind the quantity recommended for the volume of your sump. You can run this in your sump normally. I'd use this for about 3 to 400 easy miles with lots of warm ups and cool downs and then drain. Do another oil change and you should deal with the issues. If not, run some SeaFoam in the oil but don't ride the bike. Change the oil after a while and then try it again.

 

Took the gen cover off today & got as far as pulling the armature out. Is the nut that holds the gen in counterclockwise to loosen? So the tough part is how to stop the thing from spinning. I had the bike in gear & with a 2' breaker bar was spinning the rear wheel. If I had a larger oil filter wrench that would probably work great to grab the generator.

Did I read somewhere you need a special tool to remove it? Is it also pressed on? I do have pullers if needed, but first need to get that nut off.

Next I could try my impact wrench, but want to be sure it's not a left handed thread.

Any ideas/help?

 

Nut??? There is no nut holding the alternator rotor in, just a bolt and it is normally right-hand thread.
To lock the engine you should put the bike in gear and have someone step heavily on the rear brake. If you are flexible and/or desperate, you could perform this by yourself. An impact gun will help a great deal.
You will need a metric bolt to press the rotor off. M-16 (15.80mm dia.) x 1.50 pitch. at least 35mm long. Bit of an oddball but the tool is available as is the bolt. Good luck!

 

Sorry, Bolt, if the 3-4" of rain passes we are suppossed to get tonight I'll continue my endeaveur tomorrow.

I"ll keep you posted.

 

Re: Starter circuit one step at a time

Got the nut off the generator this morning by wrapping a 1" tie down strap several times around the gen & threading it through the frame & tied off to foot peg. So in gear with my foot on the brake it torqued down till the strap tightened up & she broke free.


OK, now about pulling it off the shaft.. I have a bunch of diff pullers, mostly 3 leggers, but could not find a good place to hook onto on the back of the contact plate. I have no holes to thread into. Even tried a two leg set up, but when I started to put torque on it it seemed as the the front plate started to warp...


How the heck are you supposed to grab this thing & pull it??



While I was in there I shot it with some PB blaster on the threads for my next attempt.

If anyone has a photo with the puller on I'd appreciate it!

 

Have been reading this post for a couple of weeks to get some pointers and I have a possible fix that worked for me

Just a point that might help. I've had 2 XJ's one 1982 xj750 I had for 2 years. Hadn't ridden since and bought a 1985 XJ700 with 2200 miles on it.

After some real tough cleaning of carbs and normal storage issues, tires and stuff....after getting it in riding condition in 2 months had starting issues....sometimes would and sometimes not......went through all the electrics and found nothing really wrong......then ckecked the starter continuity and found that the Aluminum body did not give a good ground....intermittent....

I took a fine bastard file and ground the sufaces on both the starter & engine bolt hole flats of starter body contact.....

Starts up strong now with no probs

 

FROGRIDER,
I'm in about the same boat as you. Good when running, tough start, and though I have yet to go through my first carb cleaning, but I know I'm having electrical gremlins, as in intermitant starter action even with good clean brushes.

How did you test the ground continuity??

 

With a Fluke multi-meter. A beeper box would work as well.

I looked at all the more complicated possibilities first....should have checked the simple stuiff 1st.

I buzz(beeper) tested along starter bolt hole flats and along bolt hole flats for the starter mounts for the engine block....for a 23 year old bike, I would take a fine file and lightly resurface the mounting flats while you have the starter off. Aluminum will corrode quickly enough to prevent electrical continuity.

 

Probably a good idea to smear some non corrosive paste or anti sieze on base to keep the ground clean.