XJ Stopping Power

I have a 1982 750 Maxim. The other day H-D had a demo ride. One of the guys in front of me changed his mind about running a yellow last minute. I slammed on the brakes and that big 'ol bike stopped RIGHT THERE. Are H-D brakes that good or is something wrong with my brakes. Man -- I have to squeeze super hard to get any type of stopping power. In my MSF course we were riding Nighthalks and they didn't seem that great either, so I am not totally suspect of my bike.

Yesterday, I had a guy start to make a left in front of me. I normally ride with my foot to the side of the rear break pedal because I am concerned about "riding" the rear break. In the split second that I reacted I only ended up using my front break and if that guy would have kept on going I would have hit him moving slow (about 5mph). However, that H-D would have been stopped by those nice breaks. I know a lot of guys here probably can't stand H-D's, but man the '09s have good breaks.

I will look into adjusting my rear pedal so that I can "cover" the break without riding them.

Chris KQ6UP

 

You're using 26 year old brake technology. XJs aren't known for great brakes.

The best thing you can do for them is to get a set of braided lines from Chacal. They'll be a lot firmer.

Of course make sure your fluid is clean (less than 2 years old) and everything is in good order.

 

I read somewhere that you can get your front disc drilled and that will help improve braking too....

 

Chris, I assume you have gone through your brakes to make sure they are working as best as possible. If you are still running original pads you may want to upgrade. I think the pads have improved greatly since then. Made a big difference on my 750. Got my brake pads from Bike Bandit. Chacal may have some too that are better than stock.
As far as drilled rotors they do help to keep the brakes from fading when you need to pull it down quickly. Under hard braking the rotors heat up and can glaze your pads.
Look at the rotors and take some brake clean and see how much black junk is stuck to your rotors.

Keep it safe and good luck

 

Someone was telling me that HD uses Brembos now. Single or dual front disk will stop you on a dime

 

I hae not rode a new new HD but I have rode a 97 police bike with the dual front disk and rear disk all hydraulic they do stop well. But they better there is alot of weight there and you pay alot of $$ for them so they need to be of decent quality all the way around.

 

Is Brembos a pad manufacturer? I think my pads are OG. The bike only had 9k on it when I bought it. I have 14k on it now. Is it necessary to change the fluid too?

I plan on upgrading one thing at a time. I spent some time last night dialing in the rear brake. Now that's gonna take some getting used to. I took up all of the slack with the rear adjustment, but when I do test panic stops, it locks up real easy. I think I going to back off that adjustment a little so I don't end up dropping the bike in a skid in a real panic situation.

It also didn't help looking at the Ride to Die website yesterday after following another thread about brakes. I feel like I have lost all my confidence and like I am an awkward brand new rider. :wink: Just when I started to feel real comfortable and confident.

Chris KQ6UP

 

Good, that might keep you alive.

 

Brembo has a pretty good standing.
http://www.brembo.com/ENG/Motorcycle-Brakes/
They have parts and systems. If they have parts for us, I dont now, but it would be nice.

 

wait, do maxims have stock dual disc's in the front> cuz mine does, but its got stupid drums in the back... needs discs there too.

 

not all brakes are created equal. Brembo are used on supercars and race cars.
And the 550 at least come with single fronts

 

In regard to the rear brake, if you actually follow the adjustment laid down in the book (service or even owner's manual) you'll get a good responding rear brake that's not too touchy. To answer one of your questions, yes, brake fluid DOES need to be replaced periodically. If you haven't done that since you got the bike and have no reason to suspect the PO had done it recently, it would be a very good idea. Flush out the old fluid with new and do a good job bleeding the front, then re-bleed after a couple hundred miles and see what that gets you.

 

you can spread old brake fluid on a piece of toast, like jam. and you can use REALLY old brake fluid as kitty litter... but you can't use either one to stop a bike. :mrgreen:

 

You should be more concerned about covering the FRONT brake lever. The rear brake doesn't have as much stopping power and can be easy to lock up under hard braking.

By 1980's standards, the XJ's had decent stopping power. By today's standards, they suck. My R6 requires just a light two-finger touch to get the bike stopped fast while my Seca needs a full heavy hand.

 

Chris kq6up,

I had the same problem with my front brakes as you described. I had to squeeze the brake lever super hard to stop the bike and at high speed it even looked like the front brakes didn’t work at all without the help of the rear brakes. I changed the more than 20 years old brake lines with a new set of braided lines, removed the old brake pads for new ones as well and put in new brake fluid. Braking power has improved more then I expected. I don’t have to squeeze the brake lever that hard any longer and if I do I get the pleasant feeling I do have brakes in front of me which are capable to stop the bike the way I want it.

 

i swaped my 650 maxim front end with a 650 seca dual disk front end.
found it a lot better

 

Applying the front brake because you didn't have time to apply the rear brake doesn't cut it. It should be second nature to apply BOTH brakes at the same time, EVERY time and ALL the time. If you get used to applying just one brake, by the time you process the thought and have to apply the other it can be too late.
If your brakes suck you should first check to make sure that the fork seals are not leaking and getting oil on your pads. Make sure the pads have plenty of life in them and replace them if not. Make sure the rear brake is in proper adjustment. You can scuff the rear shoes with emery paper to de-glaze them and do the same to the rear drum.
I am not a big fan of covering either brake, especially the front. Too easy to grab it in a turn by accident. You should get out and practice every so often doing quick stops at maximum braking to keep in touch with your bikes stopping abilities. You NEED to know what your bike will do and how it will respond before you actually need it. Apply both brakes at the same time using ALL FOUR FINGERS on the front brake.
When giving the State Test for motorcycle licensing, the biggest problem I see that fails people is the fact they only use one or two fingers on the front brake and they stop 10 - 15 feet past where they should have. Habbits like this can get you killed. You don't have time to reprocess the information to reapply the brakes correctly.
You should practice this until your automatic motor skills perform this without thinking.

Ride safe,

Ed

 

I have the rear set up the way I want now. Probably don't need any more braking action there. They are quite easy to lock up now. I plan on going through the front brake system and doing the suggested maintenance/mods. I think that is where improvement will help the most.

Thanks,
Chris KQ6UP

 

Well said Ed, makes me want to pick up the range cards again (I taught back in 90).
Correctly practiced riding skills can/will save your bacon. Practice often and if in doubt, contact a riding instructor for coaching!

 

Robert,

Why did you get out of it? I had a situation this past weekend where a applicant for the State Test came in with a fairly new Harley. I don't know what model it was, I was more interested in his riding skills rather than what kind of bike he was on.
On his first pass for the Quick-Stop, he came putting down toward the stopping area and eased on the brake. Stopped about 10-12 feet past where he should have. I asked him why it took him so long to stop and why he didn't use the front brake. He informed me that he never used the front brake unless he needed it. I told him this was one time when he "needed" it. I told him to return to the starting position, speed up about twice the speed he was going and give me a quick stop.
He did. He grabbed the front brake and the front wheel went out from under him and the bike landed on his foot. We had to pick it up so he could get out from under it. Obviously, he failed for dropping the bike. He blamed it on slick pavement. I later gave him a re-test. He still stopped too far down the braking shoot.
On the next part of the test, the swerve, I explained to the applicants the path of travel and I emphasized that this was not a quick stop and I wanted them to stop normally so long as they did not hit any other bikes or cars on the end of the testing site.
Here he came, did the swerve, straightened, grabbed the front brake again and almost lost it, let off, about 6 feet later grabbed it again and slid into another bike head-on.
This PO'ed me big time. I told him to park it until I finished the test for the others. I intentionally made him wait until everyone was through and leaving. I asked him if he could tell me what the swerve part of the test was for. TO AVOID AN OBSTACLE! He was a very good rider and didn't get a point counted against him on the cone weave and U-turn. He just did not know how to use the brake.
Knowing how your bike will perform in an emergency situation where you need to use MAXIMUM BRAKING is a MUST. The above situation is an example of someone just using one brake all the time. Riding down the road if someone intersects your path of travel, you have to depend on using your automatic motor responses. The only way to do this is to use both brakes every time, all the time until you don't even think about it. It just happens.
Unfortunately, this is something a lot of riders won't learn until it is too late. If you think your face looks good as someone's hood ornament, disregard what I said.

Ride safely,

Ed

 

Marital problems leading to a divorce forced me to apply my efforts elsewhere. Sorry.
He grabbed the front brake and locked it up is why he went down. Inexperience will bite you every time. Next time into the slot he was gun-shy. You could have given him his example as to why he needed to change his habits. I remember having my long-held misconceptions over-power the reason I was being taught and I struggled to comply. Once I let go of the past (glad I hadn't been riding long, didn't have a long list of bad habits to break), the processes became so much easier.
I remember seeing the looks of amazement on the student's faces when they applied what in the class room sounded counter-intuitive (like the look left, push left, lean left process). That usually opened quite a few eyes, even the "I've been in the saddle longer 'n you've been on the face of the planet" types. I'm sure you've had a few of those.

 

Yeah, I've had a few of them. Something just came to mind if you ever need to demonstrate counter-steering while in-place. It actually gives the students a perspective that they could not grasp while actually riding.
Stand in front of the bike with the rider in a comfortable riding posture. Hold the front tire between your knees so that it won't turn side-to-side. Have the rider "press" forward on the hand grips, first one side, then the other while watching the wheel. Make sure the rider is not self-bracing the bike hard that will cause it to not be able to lean. It doesn't take much of a lean while sitting there to demonstrate it.
It really boogers their mind when they actually see the front wheel turn the opposite direction. It aids in them understanding what actually goes on in counter-steering.
I did not mean to hijack this thread. This is totally off the original topic and I truly hope I haven't irritated anyone. I notice that this forum does not have a section for "SAFETY TOPICS" or an area to help improve "RIDING SKILLS".
I would really like to see this added. I could stick my nose in there all the time :lol: . My whole objective in this post was to get riders attention and give them a bit of information that would help improve their safety. It might even help save a life someday. :wink:

Ride Safely,

Ed

 

Wow. These stories sound like we're talking about two different motorcycles. My '82 Seca 750 will stop on a dime! It still has the original pads and orignial hoses but the brake fluid has been changed. I have a lot of confidence in my front brakes to stop me in emergency situations.

 

The other guy's bikes may or may not be different. They may also have mechanical issues, since I can't see them in person. Others I have seen blame it on the bikes when it is really "rider technique" that causes the problem.
Please don't get me wrong. I don't mean to insinuate that anyone does not know how to operate their bike or apply brakes. Well... maybe some don't. I have seen it in person. I just wanted to bring it to their attention so they could consider it.

Ride Safely,

Ed

 

I do use both of the brakes all of the time, and changing the brake fluid did help some. I still don't feel like the pads grab enough for my taste. I can stop quick. It just requires me to grab pretty hard compared to how hard I would have to grab on the Harley I rented. Re-visiting this post reminds me of the fact that I need to maybe my rear brake pedle to make it easier to keep the pedle coverd. I end up reacting first with my front if my front is covered and my rear is not, so recently I started covering my rear brake all the time. However, I have a rather large foot, and this requires me to keep my foot pigeon toed in. The hardware that the peg attaches to forces the soul of my shoe out a bit. It is very uncomfortable on long trips, so it seems like a brake pedle that sticks out furthre would be a bit of an improvement.

Chris KQ6UP

 

Chris,

It really is not a good idea to "cover" the brakes at all. This can get you in real trouble in slow tight turns and also in any other kind of turn. The natural tendency is to apply the brake when you should not. In turns it is VERY bad to apply the front brake especially.
If you are having difficulty with the brakes holding perhaps you should try a different pad. Not all pads are created equal. Try adjusting the rear brake, it may not be tight enough. Make SURE that you don't have some kind of oil residue on the front pads and rotors. Try cleaning them with brake cleaner that you can buy at your local auto parts store.
I am not going to keep beating this to death. I really don't know what kind of experience you have riding bikes. I am sure that if someone let you ride their new Harley that you would know pretty much how to ride. If this doesn't work, try to do a google search for "Galfer Green" pads. They hold very well. Cost em about $75 delivered for all three sets of pads for my bike. Not sure if they are available for the XJ or not.

Ride Safely,

Ed

 

My xj had some front brake problems so i replaced the pads but now they squeel when i hit the brakes(but does stop better).The rotor doesn't look bad but i also have a problem of something being unbalanced up front if i let go of the bars they start shaking real bad.Ive got a single disk xj650

 

caddymankc,

You need to get that taken care of IMMEDIATELY! Head shake can be and IS very dangerous. Serious injury or death can occur. Check you steering stem bearings, cracks in the front fork brace and for loose wheel bearings.
You can check for slack in the steering stem bearings by rolling the bike forward slightly and applying the front brake hard while watching the steering stem and carefully feeling for any looseness. Next, check for any unusual tire wear and balance.
I don't know what you are calling "real bad" but do yourself a favor and look for the problem. Not a good idea to ride a bike with a bad front end shake.

Ride Safely,

Ed

 

My riding is fine. I haven't had any issues breaking in turns. I did take the rider safety course and do understand that braking in turns is a BAD thing. I get the impression that you didn't quite fully understand my original post. There was a large RV in the left lane of an uncontrolled intersection. He was blocking my view and the view of the driver turning left. However, I had the right of way, so I decided to proceed slow. A cager decided to turn left blindly in front of me. I wasn't going fast. However, I had only a fraction of a second to react. I was not covering my rear brake. The cager stopped before he hit me, but had he not I would have had enough time to completely brake because of the almost instant nature of the situation. I felt at that time that it would have been better for me to cover my brakes in heavy traffic because of the short reaction time that it necessitates. A better braking system would have completely stopped me, and that is where I referenced my experience on the new Harley's having awesome brakes. Had he kept going, I would have hit him at a low rate of speed ~5mph because I wasn't traveling very fast in the first place.

I am not trying to defend myself here. I am just trying to figure out the best strategies and the best brake set up in this urban jungle scenario. I have my rear set up the way that I like now. I just don't like the peddle position because I have to ride with my foot to the side of the brake. This slows down my reaction time in these situations.

Any further advice with this clarification?
Chris KQ6UP