Lights, Camera, NOT STARTING!

New Issue: I turn the key, and get lights, I flip the engine switch to run, and push start... but I get nothing.

Rode the bike to work on Thursday, small hic-up that morning but pushed the start again and it revved up. But leaving work... couldn't start it. Couldn't even push it, even with the help of two other guys. So I assumed it was a switch thing.

Friday night, after getting the thing home, I tore off the seat, the gas tank, the front fairing, and just about everything to get to the wires, and tested resistance for the whole right handlebar control. All tests fine, so the switches are good.

I also tested side-stand switch and side-stand relay (though I'm not sure how to test a relay properly). Tested resistance back to the fuse, so everything is good to that point.

So, I need advice for what to test next. TCI unit? Pickup Coils? How do I trace this down?

While I wait, I'll be following Haynes manual tomorrow, jabbing my multimeter into just about any exposed wire I can find.

Current updates: Changed out tube fuses to the newer blade type fuses.

 

To test a Relay you need a little Power Source.
Not much.
Just enough to say so.
9 Volts will do.

All you need is a 9 Volt Battery
And one of these connections.
Tin the ends of the leads with some solder and you have a Relay Tester!
http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.c ... me=HWS3009

 

i hate to question the man here but to pick up a 12v relay with a 9v battery is shakey at best
a battery charger would work more reliably

 

The Test is to see if the Coil in a Relay is good or bad.
Using a 9 Volt Battery to see if the Relay Closes and Opens is really quite enough voltage for conducting the Test of a Relay.

Relay.

Not Solenoid, Starter or anything needing high amperage.
Those little cube-looking ones.
Electrical Relays.

You never heard of testing a Relay with a 9 Volt Battery?
Try it.
Use the Battery Charger for charging Batteries and seeing if the Starter Solenoid's bad or to Spin the Starter Motor.

You need a good 9 Volt Battery.
Test the 9 Volt Battery you have the Old School way.
Just touch it to your tounge!
If you get the tingle ... its OK
If not ... throw it out.

 

actually i've made a living testing relays in substations for twenty some years, but i can't say i've ever tried using a 9v battery to test a yamaha relay
but if you say it works, that's all i need

 

Polock pick voltage on the relays used on the bikes is 8 volts so the 9v will be fine. Manual also shows how to verify them with a meter.

Tygor this may help - Don did a nice job here

Diagnose starting issues
http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=7828.html

 

I'll back you up on the 9V battery Rick.
Polock, it doesn't take as much voltage to get an automotive relay coil humming. Big ole contactors are a whole other animal! Not my idea of fun either. Blew a few up with an over-current surge once, arc-flash was incredible even with the shield in place!!!

 

K, after church today, I've been going through these steps: Test your starter circuit.

I've made it to #4 and got a strange reading. Testing continuity from solenoid block connector (non-solenoid side) to battery's ground. When start button pushed, expected to see 0 or close to it. Instead, the 200 ohms scale read -29. Um... so I went to #5. That requires a fresh battery, but from messing, I only have 8 V. So I'm charging...

But it was nice to trip the solenoid and learn that the bike still may work.

 

With a bike like mine, that is not good at tests, it did pass a few... but it failed on step #7... testing the neutral switch. I got no continuity between the sky blue wire and ground... (though I had the option of white with blue, and blue with black... no sky blue, so I tested both).

So, guys, after a bit of peeking at the underbelly, I need more help. Neutral switch is "under the crankcase to the left, next to the sump". Well, that doesn't help much. Is it in the crankcase? Is it outside and accessible? Do I have to take the head pipes off, or maybe the exhaust?

I see all of the other bikes leaving their garage and going for a ride, but mine just sits there. What if I use that screwdriver/solenoid trick?

I'm done for tonight... any advice?

 

Tygor, the neutral switch is externally accessable. It is located in the oil sump pan, threaded in like a bolt. You will see it in the location mentioned. It may be obscured by the exhaust collector. Pulling the exhaust may easy locating and accessing it.
No continuity with it in gear or out??? Important to know. You should have continuity with neutral selected.
I'm not up on the whole safety relay system so I'll defer to wiser folks than I.

 

Here's the Safety Circuit Schematic from the Yamaha Factory Manual:

 

I'm sorry folks, but I cannot for the life of me, find the neutral switch. I have the Haynes manual open, and I see that it appears to be a bolt, and that it's located somewhere around the side-stand switch and the oil switch. I have the 750RK so, my pipes come out of the engine, curve around the crankcase, and obscure the whole mess. I can't find the darn thing. I'm also limited by not having a bike jack, so it's on it's center-stand and I'm using a flashlight to search.

Can I have detailed instructions on how to find it? Also, I see that my oil level sensor has some split lamination in the wire, and that I've found, and it's very hard to get to, so if I could also get some help on how to remove my pipes, I'd appreciate it. I've done the obvious on my parts bike for practice, but I can't seem to release the pipe from where they come together under the crankcase.

HELP! I want to ride some more before it's too unbearable.

 

Removing the Exhaust Pipes after 20-years is quite a fight!

The A-Number-1 Rule in removing the Head Pipes:
DO NOT BREAK AN EXHAUST MANIFOLD STUD!

The four Header Pipes need to be removed. The Headers have Collars at the top which have Hex Nuts securing the Collars to the Head on SOFT STEEL STUDS.

I oil the Threads and smear some synthetic grease on exposed threads; then TRY to undo the Hex Nut.
If the Nut is not frozen; I "Exercise" the Nut off the Stud ... little by little.
Tightening and loosening to "Get it moving".
If it moves and will come off without excess undo torque ... good!

IF, the Nut is frozen ...
Don't apply excessive undo torque to the Nut.
Sacrifice the Nut.
Cut the NUT off.

Use a DREMEL Tool and a Cut-off Wheel.
Excise the Nut ... on a slanted (Bias) line from front to back.
Make a CUT through the NUT on a slant so that the threads on the Stud don't get marred by the Cut-off wheel in a straight line which would reduce their effectiveness when applying a New Hex Nut.

You can make a Cut 95% through the Nut and then SPLIT the Nut with a Nut Cracker.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00904772000P

After you get the Header Collars Free you get to deal with the Fasteners on the Clamps to the Collector.
Getting the Fastener that tightens the Exhaust Clamp out may be impossible after 20-years.
Oil and Heat.
These you CAN Break; and probably will.
Once you get the Clamp Fasteners out ... the FUN begins.

Then, ... you have to get the Pipes out of the Collector and Head.
If you DON'T have a RUBBER MALLET ... Now, would be a good time!

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00938304000P

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 000P?mv=rr

As you lie there, on the floor ... banging the Pipes to the left and right ... doing what you can to try and loosen them ... you will be "Tested" by the Motorcycle Gods to see if you are truly worthy.

Remember this:
They WILL come out.
Like the Sword "Excalibur" ... only YOU can extract it from the Boulder.
Free one Sword from the Stone and YOU will be King!

Free one Exhaust Header Pipe from the Collector ... and, ...
You got three left!

 

Parts Bike: was able to get all 4 of the collars off with no problem. Able to release 3 of them totally while one remains "fun". It is covered in PB, and should work through the night. The rubber mallet was my friend.

While I was working on that, I charged my functional bike's battery. All the testing has let it run down. Once charged, I ran through the tests on this list Test your starter circuit. Number 4 still baffles me. It is testing the starter button by checking continuity from solenoid pigtail Blue/White wire (non-solenoid side) to battery negative terminal. I read "1" when button not depressed, and "-39 something odd" when pressed. The conclusion in the guide is that the starter button is bad, BUT...

When I use another cheat that I read: disconnecting solenoid pigtail and powering Red/White wire directly to battery positive, and Blue/White wire back to connector Blue/White wire, THEN when I press the start button, I get the motor to turn over. I still don't achieve idle, so I'm assuming there is a kill still in play.

Electrical Guru's out there? Any advice?

 

Tygor- - love your bike, I'm building the same thing.
I have bad starter circuitry also, so I'm following this thread. . .
I have been starting and riding mine with a 1/2 inch box wrench in my hip pocket to cross the solenoid- - the ol' "screwdriver" trick.
I leave the side cover off.

 

Thanks TIMEtoRIDE. I haven't really tried to short the solenoid before tonight. Well, like I've mentioned, it still won't start. The starter motor turnes the engine, but it doesn't kick in and idle. I ran the battery dry trying that. I think I have something serious to deal with.

Like every night, I re-read the Haynes manual tonight on the starting circuit. I wonder if all of my miltimeter stabbing may have ruined one of the SECA's fragile and complicated diodes. I'm losing heart.

Still seeking the neutral switch... and still seeking the interpretation of a -39 reading when testing continuity for the start button itself. Tonight though, it read 0 like it should when pressed. So, step #5, testing voltage from the positive battery terminal to the R/W solenoid pigtail... no voltage. Hmmph.

 

Hate to bring this back up... but I'm still fighting this bike problem. Is there a way to bypass the neutral switch? Perhaps by wiring the block connector somehow? I'd love to be able to ride, and I think (from tests) that this is the problem.

 

It should be a light blue wire, that goes to ground when switched, just pull the jack & put a wire to earth to complete the curcuit.

 

Keep at it Tygor ! I found one of my wiring problems today, and fired my bike up ( on 2 CYL) I found a blue/white wire cut in half!
Some PO left the main harness pulled up over a metal wire holder on the backbone, and it pinched all the wires between that and the tank.

 

If you think the problem IS a stuck Neutral Switch; then, ... it's going to be tough for you to iron-out the problem.

The Safety Relay which PREVENTS the Bike from Starting is wholly dependent on the Signal it gets from the Neutral Switch.
If the Neutral Switch is stuck CLOSED -- The Relay gets a Signal that Bike IS NOT in Neutral and will NOT Start unless:
>> The Clutch Lever is Pulled ---> (And, THAT Switch is GOOD)
>> The Sidestand is Raised ---> (And, THAT Circuit intact)

The challenge is to identify the wire FROM the Neutral Switch TO the Safety Relay, and, ... Test it for +12Volts.
If the wire is HOT ... Interrupt the current to the Relay.

If the wire is NOT Hot ... add a Low Voltage Signal to Trigger the Relay.

 

This is the step that keeps failing. I get no change when I shift gears. So, I tested continuity between the neutral switch (YES, I found it!) and the starter circuit cut-off relay light blue wire... I get continuity (0.7).

The quoted step above says to renovate the neutral switch and its ground. Please clue me into what its ground is. How can I renovate that?

Rick, the wire is not hot. I don't get volts when the connector is unplugged between the light blue wire and itÅ› corresponding connection on the relay. I am not sure of myself enough to test a relay, or to know where to add the low voltage.

Bike is getting a cleaning though in nooks and such as I hover around it.

 

This little 9 Volt Battery Tap and a Multi-meter is all you need to test a Relay.

Plus! It's all you need to "Fool a Relay"

Radio Shack: ($1.89)

 

New NEWS! Now I'm on a trail that shows promise! First of all, why didn't you guys warn me about chasing continuity? In a multi-threaded wire, only one strand needs to be left for it to read open, but it acts like a resistor when it comes to voltage.

So, on the advice from some nice folks at church, I chased voltage today. The results:::

All tests were done with the multimeter black line attached to the battery ground terminal. All steps are where the multimeter red line was testing. The bike key was in the "on" position, and the engine switch was "on".

1) Battery red terminal ---> 11.35 V (it's low for all the testing).
2) Red block connector from battery red terminal attached to solenoid ---> 11.53 V (odd how it was more voltage).
3) Main fuse, before ---> 10.92 V
and after the fuse ---> 10.88 V
4) Ignition fuse ---> 0.32 V
and after the fuse ---> 0.33 V

NOW! Here's the weird part... for about 5 seconds while testing ignition fuse, it read 10.8 V... so I pushed the start button, AND IT TURNED OVER about twice before returning to 0.3 V. Both the headlight fuse and the signal fuse read 10.8 V continuously.

The only thing between the main fuse and the ignition fuse is the Main Switch!!! Uh... what does this mean? How do I fix that?

One more bit of useful information... this all began after I received my new windshield and installed it... meaning, I removed the front fairing. That mass of wires within the snap together vinyl bag may have been jostled.

Is it more probably that the main switch is bad, or that I've dislodged the connectors to the main switch only affecting the ignition?

My neck's killing me... I'm out for now. Cold weather is coming... bikes broken.

Ah, old bikes: hours of fun riding, hours of torture fixing.

 

So you know that you need at least 10v to the ignition fuse.
The 0.32 is not right.
You should have good voltage on both sides of the fuse.
This gives you a place to start.
Work back to the battery to where you find good voltage.

Your meter should zero in a continuity test.
No ohms.

 

Actually, no. There's contact resistance from the probes to the wire, resistance of the test leads, and resistance of the wire itself. 0.7 is probably OK. 0.0 would only be if the meter allowed for zeroing, had already been zeroed, and was measuring a very short run.

 

Hmm my multimeter zeros right out.
I will look at it when I get home.

 

Well I checked my meter.
Turns out I usually use the diode mode for continuity.
It zeros everytime just like the video on this SITE.
Just for shits and grins I used the ohms setting and checked a 30 foot piece of speaker wire.
It still zeroed.
From that site it looks like it depends on what meter you are using.