$1124 dollar fine...holy crap

not to insult anyone but to put it plainly "the level of absurdity of any given law is directly proportionate to the level of complacency of the public" sadly i think it would take years to get rid of that law

 

Wasted trip baby..nobody said nothing about locking horns with no tigers

S!

 

the truth ranger is that the court allowed him to forgo a suspension of his licence by paying $12,000.00 in "fines" instead!! at any other point in the offence this would have been considered a bribe but because his lawyer made the offer in court it's apperantly legal!! just so everyone is aware (at least in alberta) you buy your way out if your pockets are deep enough!!!
earlier in the summer a man from Prince George B.C caught doing 206kph on the same strech of highway near Hinton Ab also cut a deal with the same prosecutor (in Edson I think) to keep his licence in exchange for a fine of $8600.00 proveing once and for all that the government is concerned about our safty and not our money...Right? :?
Shaun

 

*Actually*, the complexity (and therefore inanity) of a legal system is in direct proportion to the depravity of a culture.

Face it, there is no one else to blame other than the people who force such situations.

Now, as to the license being horizontal to the ground ... I didn't see anything in there stating which *part* had to be horizontal, so make the whole danged thing horizontal on the same horizontal plane (if you have a good lawyer and don't mind spending the time or money to fight it ...) <evil grin>

Of course, that would only serve to make the laws even more complex and wordy - but it would serve the twits right.

But frankly, I don't understand why it is such a big deal to display the plate properly? C'mon, do we really have to whine about that and cry "storm troopers" or worse "SS"? Yeah, the degree of the fine, considering it a felony, is down right stupid. If they want it as a fund raiser, far smarter to make it a $100 fine, and they can get a whole bunch more of them. Making it this big of a fine and felony will quickly discourage disobedience which would be self defeating as a fund raiser ...

 

The point that the fellow in that article (Bruce McCarthy) makes is this:

Adminsitrative law....which is what 99% of us think of as "the law"......has been written in a way that not only trumps (ignores, over-rides, etc.) Constitutional Law, but those laws require you to forsake your Constitutional RIGHTS in order to enjoy the "priveleges" that such administrative laws give to the "applicant".

His example dealt with the TITLE to a car (same thing applies to motorcycles, obviously). In order to register your vehicle, you first have to exchange your ownership RIGHTS in your vehicle (that a "title" is the only true and legal evidence of) to the State in order to get a "license" plate.


That's his entire point, and being a smart feller, he turns the tables on them to "force" the administrative officials (in this particular case, the DMV officials) to admit that what they are doing is, in essence, illegal under constitutional law (the individual officials are, of course, just "following the law", and didn't WRITE the law; but neither they, nor the people who wrote the law, actually understand what they are doing when they write such laws, and that is a real problem..........).

Notice that when his questions and points can no longer be ignored, that the officials then try to harass him and threaten him with arrest, fines, etc. RATHER THAN DEAL WITH THE UNDERLYING ISSUE of "there is a law here that is both contradictory AND illegal under the laws spelled out by the Constitution.

Some people might say that's an even BIGGER problem.


By the way, these same types of administrative laws apply to any type of real property that you "own", including your house.


Want to do "Eminent Domain" for $200, Alex? Used to be that the government had to declare your property to be nuisance, or a hazard, or in the way of a public works project (new freeway comin' thru, etc.) in order to use their right of "eminent domain" to seize your property for "the public good".

No more.

A few years back, when the biggest news story of the day was that Hoochie Girl Anna Nicole Smith was appearing before the Supreme Court to see if she could keep all her hoochie-money from marrying the 89-year-old billionaire before he keeled over, there was another less-publicized, but much more interesting Supreme Court decision that same day.....regarding the eminent domain powers of administrative law-making bodies.

In a nutshell, the Supremes agreed that it okay for a governmental body/agency (i.e. usually the zoning board) to use eminent domain to seize your property if the VALUE of your property is less than some other use of that property.


This case was brought before the Court because builders and property developers (shopping mall builders, condo developers, etc.) brought the case. They want the government to be able to SEIZE YOUR LAND if they feel that your land can be used by them to put a "higher value" property in its place.......


This all started on Florida beach cities, where lots of people lived in "prime" beachfront or near-beachfront properties in older houses, and along comes a developer that wants to put up multi-million dollar condo towers, or hotels, etc. Older house owner knows that his land is valuable, and thus doesn't want to sell at low-ball developer prices.......which causes big problems for multi-million dollar developers. So developer can now go to the zoning board and get zoning board to seize your property and pay you lowball price.

Think I'm joking? Look it up.


In another thread, Wizard made a joke about the USA becoming a "third-world country" (or maybe it wasn't a joke?),

I'd say crap like the above is what DEFINES a 3rd-world country. It's not that "everyone is poor" in a 3rd world country; it's that the laws and institutions are set up in a way where only the lucky few get to benefit from them, AND THEN EVENTUALLY such a situation turns most people into poor people.

 

As a residemt of the state of florida. I was here when the law was talked about and know why it was passed and who it was aimed at. Like anything else that politicians have done they managed to make it to vague and completely screw it up. To complicate this issue the police man that issued the ticket was probably being a prick to the motorcyclist involved.

This law was written to combat street racing (a real problem in modern florida) and showmanship riding. Ie the wheelies and the endos. This is why the law specifies two wheels on the road at all times. Part of the problem with this situation is the bikes that perform these stunts on a regular basis mount their liscence plate normally under the rear fairing of the bike in such a way that it is impossible for the police to read it. See attached picture. Lets put it this way last week the cops were looking for a motorcyclist here in orlando that was driving a blacked out R1 similar to the picture that passed the sheriffs car going 60 in a 45 pulling a wheelie as it passed. The cop goes to pull the guy over and he runs... 5 minutes later he is gone.... the cops never found him.
The standard police policy here in florida has been don't chase motorcycles for minor offenses you can't catch them and if you do chase em the idiot normally loses control and you have to send the ticket to the morgue. They instead read the plate and dispatch a officer to the residence of the offender. The law was intended to ensure that all liscence plates were READABLE from a police car a short distance behind the motorcycle (mostly his dash camera). This law was never intended to go after the mounting of the plate wether it is vertical or horizontal to the ground.... just that it was perpindicular to the road surface. The politicians made it vague and the police and local authorities have used this combat motorcyclists that some consider offensive. In many ways the motorcycle community has done this to ourselves. I am sorry but all the idiots out there with the cut pipes or really loud pipes, the reputation of the motorcycle gangs like the hell's angels, and the idiots on the crotch rockets doing wheelies and other stunt riding makes the common citizen less than friendly to us.... it makes us a small community that is easy to target. Think about that when it is 1 AM and you are ridiing your loud pipes down a residential street and people are waking up.

Ron

 

Florida is a Republican state Right?

 

what if the state(S) could give you a plate in the orientation you intend - vert or horizontal?

Why cant the plate reading software figure out the orientation on its own? If thats too complicated, a high res digital snapshot for human eyes.

I haven't heard issues up here with the plates.
But instead every day in the news we see multi time winners of drunk driving awards. 5, 6, 7, 8 times - nothing keeps them from diving illegally - fines or jail. Some freak has 18 DUI and even as he sits in prison, he seems proud of his record.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/features/iteam/43589827.html


I think the police have more important things to focus on than sideways plates that should be a no brainer.

And dont forget idiot cell phone users who happen to be sitting behind the wheel of a moving vehicle.

 

His plate is legal according to the code. Horizontal.

I was also here. No one talked about the lisence being a $1000 dollar plus fine. The major concern was the 50+ targeted only at two wheelers.

I did nothing to bring this wrath on me (Never been on one wheel and have no desire to. Don't go any more over the speed limit on two wheels than on four. Have a normal lisence plate.)

Don't have a problem with attacking public safety problems like stunt riding and excessive speed (in all vehicles). Of course, wreckless driving covers most of this anyway. Make the law have your plate mounted so that it is clearly visible to a PoPo in a car at x feet and his camera. Make the fine REASONABLE. Then enforce it!

More people die because of unused seatbelts than because of miss mounted lisence plates. Why not make that a $1000 dollar fine?

As for taxes and raising money. Do you want a rideable road or a pot hole Jungle? These things don't fix themselves. Florida is one of the least taxed states in the nation (not most taxed). We have no income tax, lower property tax, etc. Yes, there are fees for many things, but then the person using the service is the person paying the tax. Why did all the people in the north move down here in the late 90s early 2000s? Because they could sell there houses for much more up north and move down here where they paid less tax. Now that tax rates are slowly coming up, they want to cry about it.

Cross Florida Barge canal was mostly federal wasted money.

 

For the most part, you make sense. However, in the case of the roads, all benefit from them, not just those who drive them. Therefore, all should pay. Those who don't actually drive are either driven by others or have people bring things too them. somehow, the roads are involved - unless they happen to live on a totally self-sustaining farm where they have no utility connections and no trade outside of the farm itself.

I have seen far more 4 wheeled vehicles driving around with obscured plates, whether by mud, damage, license plate "covers", etc., than I ever have motorcycles with non-visible plates. How about all those pickup trucks with that big hitch blocking the center 25% of the plate? Why aren't they being handed a $1K + ticket and a felony charge? Inquiring minds want to know. Sounds like unequal enforcement of the law to me.

 

nice post chacal and tumble my reference to the SS is more of a joke than anything else but the progressive erosion of our rights is not, in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM should a felony be attached to some thing as inane as the orientation of your license plate, A felony charge can RUIN your life.

S!

 

That is where this law will eventually fail. It is targeted. I have never seen a car/truck hang a tag vertically, only motorcycles.

The law does not make for all fines for bad tags (mud, hitch balls, covers, etc.) to be $1000, only for vertical/horizontal miss alignment. Thus the target at MTCYs only.

If they really wanted to stop the dangerous driving, etc. make that offense a multiplier to other fines and apply to all vehicles.

Example: Speed in excess of 50MPH over. $1000 dollar fine, plus quadrouples the fine for everything else they can tag on. (i.e. normally a lisence violation is $120, with 50+ and a tag violation it becomes $480 (or any other multiplier you like)).

Could work equally well for driving without a seat belt. Penalty for doing it, but a stiffer penalty for doing it and extreme violations. Could add DUI into the mix (as the extreme multiplier). This would truly target the people who endanger themselves and OTHERS with extreme stunts, speed and DUI.

And yes everyone should pay for the roads, but not equally. If you have stuff delivered to you, some of what you paid in shipping is used to pay for the registration of the truck and fuel charge.

My main point is that fines should reasonably reflect the impact of the violation and be used as a deterent.

My secondary point (now that some have complained about all fees/fines not just excessive ones) is that we have to pay for what society wants. Want good schools, pay for them. Want good roads, pay for them. Want good cops, pay for them.

The guy who wrote this ticket is not necessarily the problem. Perhaps he was at the end of a bad day and the biker was not as polite as he could have been. Perhaps he had scrapped someone up of the road recently and that effected his perception. Who knows? Its the fine schedule that is the problem not the cop himself. (Who here wants to get shot at for as little as $30,000 a year?)

 

I agree it's a thank less job but, just because it's your job doesn't make it right.

 

But they are people and need to be treated as such rather than "that dumb cop" or "that stupid pig" ... I have never had a problem with an officer. Whenever I have encountered one it was "yes officer" ...

 

Couple more tid bits- - at 41 over you go to jail in Fl, and your bike is impounded.

In Germany the fine is keyed to your annual income, a guy who made four million the previous year was fined some huge amount, don't remember how much.

 

Exactly... :!:

 

Part of the problem IS the individual officers though. Around here at least, there's a frightening amount of stereotypical 'stupid pigs'...

I've been harassed in my own driveway when i didnt have any lights on my bike. Apparently, private property doesn't mean anything any more, dude went on for 20 minutes about how he "could impound my bike because it wasn't street legal" despite the fact that I wasn't on any street.

I did meet a cool cop yesterday though, fellow biker.

 

Get treated by assh*les as an assh*le enough and its hard not to take on an assh*le attitude. That's why you treat them with politeness and respect at the outset and if they go that route anyways, rather than throwing it back on them, make note of their badge number and then call their commander and explain the situation. If you are rational, calm and reasonable with the commander, odds are strong that the cop will get what he deserves.

I spent my teen years in Germany. German cops will take *NOTHING*. Neither do MPs. Between that and being raised by an Army officer, I learned to respect the badge, whether or not the wearer was an assh*le.

 

I've known cops who were way cool (an uncle is a narcotics detective in Mich and really cool, but his collars probably don't think so, and my best friend is a SO and nice (usually gives warnings for tickets unless your a d***). I've also know some who were not. Just like all aspects of life.

Anyone know an A**hole biker?

 

Interesting discussion...

The cop is just an enforcer. They don't write the laws nor do they set the fines. They just enforce.

If you hack a cop off, you can just about bet he starts searching his/her memory bank of laws to see what could be enforced. Then it is up to you to deal with the court system. But cops are people. And just like all of us, they: make mistakes, have good days, have bad days, are happy, are angry, etc.. And in our system, the courts are supposed to catch when laws were enforced improperly.

In this case, I think the real issue is a misaligned lawmaking attempt. There was a perceived problem with a certain class of bike, so someone had the bright idea that creating this license plate law would give cops the needed tool to 'enforce the law' to reduce the problem. While not the first and certainly not the last, it definitely falls into that 'dumb law' category.