don't trust your mechanic....

I recently had a valve job done, which included setting all the clearances to spec. paid $350 total.

just got the head back on, the timing set correctly, and I decided to check the valve clearances before i put the cover back on....

every single setting was out of spec; too loose by 0.1 mm or greater.

I'm really ticked off; this was hard earned money spent on a service not rendered.

What do you think is the best way for me to go about getting my money back without having to take the head off again?

grrr :evil:

 

Look on the bright side.
Too loose is better than too tight.

I'd try to get them to re-do it (and buy you a new head gasket)

Yes, you'll be pulling the head again, but they MIGHT get it right this time.

I don't know that engine, but you don't need to pull the head to adjust the valves I don't think.

What other work did they do? If they gave it a complete valve job, the valves may seat themselves (just a bit) when you run it and fall back into spec.
They might also offer to adjust them while on the bike? ...be nice at first and see what they say then you can get nasty.

 

Why pull the head? Can you trailer it there, or get it running and get it there?

Out of curiosity... if you can take a head off, why didn't you do the shims yourself?

 

When the shop cuts the valves and seats the valve clearances change. They have to grind off the top of the valve stems and try to get the clearances they are looking for. The key here is installed valve height. If the shop measures the valve height installed they should be able to shim it right. But some shops are As we say just go "Close Enough" They might have even ground the shims so you won't be able to even look for a number on the back. You'll have to run it and break it back in and check the valves after 600 miles or so. Once you check them and get your measurements you'll have to figure out what shims will work by looking at the chart. It would be good to have a good micrometer if there are no numbers on the back of the shims.

MN

 

The shims i believe are not ground, because they installed a couple with the #'s facing up.

I took the head off to repair a mangled exhaust stud and figured i might as well get a valve job done while was at it. Hopefully they didn't go "close enough" on grinding the seats/faces...

I don't have a trailer, and I don't think I want to have them work on it again. i'm just going to try to get some of my money back.

So you're saying they might seat better after running a bit? what kind of impact will running .1+ mm loose have have on performance/starting?

The bike was not running (the engine was from a different bike; it was tested as running w. 140PSI on all cyls) before i took the head off, but since then I've refurbished the mixture screws (were 6-7 turns out, got new screws and cleaned threads. set to 2.5 turns out), set the float heights (17.5mm), and cleaned the pilot emulsion tubes in the float bowls. new battery, new brushes in starter, hopefully im good to go.

So i guess I'll try to get it running and ride it to see if things seat better... I'm not going to *&(*&^(^$ up the motor by running with loose valves? breaking in tips, besides take it easy?


should i run it for just a little while (10 miles) then check clearances and adjust if the valves don't seat better? or should i go the full 600 as MN MAXIMS says?

 

You are worried about nothing. They just bought you a bit of extra time between valve clearance adjustments. You will NOT damage anything by riding your bike like this. I personally adjust all my valves to the largest specified clearance for this reason. .01mm might just be the difference in what one guy feels is proper drag on a feeler gauge, and what another feels is too tight/loose. I'd be glad someone took the job on at all on a bike this age.

 

gotcha, but they're not .01mm loose. they are 0.1mm loose. all the intakes are set at 0.30mm, all the exhausts at 0.33mm. is this still ok?

intake spec .11-.15mm
exhaust spec .16-.20mm

intake actual: .30mm
exhaust actual: .33mm

sorry if i come off a little aggro, im just frustrated by all the obstacles to my bike running.

 

You are much better of running loose.
Old School says: If you can't hear them; their too tight.

There's several thousandths of room to go over, anyway.
If you are Beyond Spec ... loose; you have think about adjustment.

If you can hear them; you aren't burning them.

 

That seems to be quite a bit of excess clearance, and although you certainly won't run the risk of burning valves due to clearances that are too small ("tight"), well........

Perhaps they are set this way in order to allow some initial wear of the valve seats to occur, which will tend to close up the clearances.....?

MacMcMac......how do you go about setting all of the clearances to the "largest specified clearance" when the clearance ranges are .05mm wide, and shims only come in .05mm increments?

 

i guess I'll give the shop a call manana and see what they say about it.

 

When the bikes were new the shop told us to run for 600 and bring back to reset the valves. Your valves need to seat in and then I would make adjustments when things settle down.
It will be noisey but better than too tight. put 200 on and see if there is any change.

MN

 

gracias! that's what i was looking for. just want to make sure im not going to seize my engine or something ridiculous.

 

Whoa. I disagree; that is WAY too loose. Your intakes are DOUBLE what they should be; I would simply set them correctly myself.

That fact that they installed some of them with the numbers UP tells us they probably don't have a lot of experience with bucket & shim technology; the valve cutting/grinding/lapping part is universal.

You've gone to all this trouble and expense already; take a bit longer and get the correct shims in there. Then recheck after about 600-1000 miles.

 

I'm with Fitz on the shop not appearing to know the technology. I know the valves are fairly flat but don't you risk them not opening fully with double the gap?

 

Not opening fully; opening way late, closing early... all a result of way too loose. Probably won't be a ball to try to adjust your carbs either.

 

yeah.... i kinda figured that loose couldn't be good for anything. gonna try to get my money back so i can get correct shims... who knows, maybe my old ones will fit in my buddy's 79 xs750

 

I doubt a few thousandths of Valve Lash is going to adversely affect performance.

You adjust tight Valves so you don't burn them.

You adjust Loose Valves so you don't throw a shim.

Other than that ... you good to go.
Valves won't be opening and closing way too late.

 

im a little confused rick, are you saying I'll be fine with .1mm LOOSE valve clearances, or are you saying i should adjust?

is lash the same as clearance?

 

There is a set of Specs.
You are either within specs ... and life is good.
Or, ... outside of Specs and corrective action necessary.

Thumb Rule for Valve Clearances:
Intake: 0.11 -to- 0.15mm (.004 ~ .006)
Exhaust: 0.16 -to- 0.20mm (.006 ~ .008)

These are the SPECS.
Running a Valve TIGHT >> IF You KNOW its Tight is OK on Intakes.
If you KNOW: (.00275 ~ .003) For Intakes

One, (1), Uno, Not-2 ... .001 One thousandth Under Specs is OK
IF you know.
Outside of Specs = Noisy. Replace to prevent throwing a shim.

 

0.1mm is not a thousandth- is this where all the confusion is coming from?

 

Use either thousanths or metric, whatever you're comfortable with. Ignore the other spec. Now a question, or observation- - I found a cam that was a little tight when measured with the "toe" pointed away from the shim, at .003, but the "heel" was not ground symmetrical, and the clearance went down to .0015 ( and I was not on the "ramp") (and this would not have been found by somebody following "proceedure")- - how many of us have cams that are not ground perfectly? I read 100 PSI on that cylinder, which now reads about 150.

I submit that we should be checking the cam clearance at more than one point of rotation. This could be considered an improvement on the factory method.
Only 1 lobe of 8 did this, by the way.

 

talked to the shop, said i should bring it back in. Ima try to get the beast running and ride it over there. I have another head gasket, so maybe they will fix it, but methinks that it will need reshimming regardless since the looseness comes from the valve length grind. Ill keep y'all posted. gracias

 

Sorry, I have screw and locknut adjusters on my Suzuki, and my XS which lets me set them to whatever I please. I choose to set them up at the outermost of the acceptable range. Still, 0.1mm is approximately .004", which is about the thickness of a piece of foolscap paper. I cannot believe there is any danger of throwing a shim or retarding valve timing with such a small difference.

 

If the only way the place you bring the Bike to can get the right Valve Shim tolerances is to GRIND the Valve Shims, ...

I'd look for another place to bring my Bike.

For all Practical Purposes: .1mm = .004

 

the spec range is only .04 mm, so .1mm is a significant amount, 2.5 whole ranges off spec.... im going to do it right.....

 

*whew*
GOOD. And don't let them do it. Any more "grinding" will result in even looser valves. The solution now is the right size shims to bring it into spec.

You're absolutely right about the clearance being excessive; at this point I wouldn't let the guys at the shop touch it again. Hopefully they know their stuff valve-seat wise and did a righteous cut and lap; obviously they aren't all that familiar with our valve actuation method, which is... ok I guess, if they did the valves right. NO MORE GRINDING. And NO GRINDING SHIMS for cryin' out loud. NEW shims where necessary, with the numbers down.

You did get new valve stem seals in the process, right?

 

Shout it from the rooftops, Good Brother Fitz!

Can I have an amen from the audience?

 

"Yezz. Chew kin git ah, ... Hay-menn own dat!!

"Fust, gew godda gits yo Mo-Jo woikin!"

"Denn, youse ax all duh fam-blee fo da reel deal"

"No grynin dem shims"

Ken ah gits huh ... Hay-mannn on Dat!

 

amen.

heres the actual measured clearances. 1>4 from left to right

intake .35 .35 .38 .38
exhaust .40 .40 .43 .48

jeez... The bike does however run now, so im going to bring it in to the shop, measure the clearances in front of them, and ask for some of my money back.

i did get new seal, hopefully they could figger out how to do that.

also, im going to ask them to be HONEST and tell me whether they are 100% SURE they put the buckets and shims right back where they got them from... coz if so, i already have the shim numbers and can order the correct replacements. if not, or if i feel they are trying to cover their asses... who knows? obviously im going to do it myself and check em when i get the tool...

how much of a problem is it if they put the bucket back in the wrong spot? faster wear rates right? grr..............

but the bike runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yahoo! first time ever getting this motor running since 8.29.08 and it fired up in two presses of the starter button.

 

Good Lord, you could drive a big ol' harley thru those clearances........

I hope those are mm's, right?

Would be better is they didn't/hadn't, but not an "end-of-the-world" thing.

Maybe, maybe not. The lifters get a "wear orientation" to them depending on which hole they were in.

 

Don't sweat the Buckets.
They are interchangeable.
If you bought a new one; you get one like a million others.

Worry about getting the Bike shimmed right.
That's your priority.

 

You know, one other thing..........ugh, you might not like this but you'd better be aware of it now, b4 you go back to Ye Old Butcher Shoppe (whoops, I meant machine shoppe........).


The .38 on those two intakes against the max. specified acceptable clearance of .15mm is .23 too large, which means you'd need a .25mm thicker shim than is what is currently installed in those holes........


On the exhaust, you've got that .48 outlier that is .28 larger than acceptable, so you'll need to use a .30 larger shim.

Shims only are available in a max size of 3.20mm.............keep your fingers crossed........pray some.

 

um... i have 290's 280's and a 275 in there right now. finger crossed real tight.

how does that look with the 290's being in the widest holes?

I'll figger it out thanks len.

 

Well, if the 290 is in the .48mm exhaust clearnace hole, and it's going to take a .30mm increase (to the 3.20mm shim) to bring the clearance down to .18mm.

So you're safe there, and if the 290 shim was the largest one currently being used, then you're safe everywhere else.

Let's hope the valves really pound those seats in a bit and close up the clearances really quick!

 

They should tighten up a bit in the first 1000 miles or so.

Even though the 320s are as big as they get, it'll put you in the middle of the spec so you'll be good to go; from here on out you'll be installing smaller shims as wear occurs anyway.

Don't bother riding the bike to the shop to show them the error of their ways; a valve clearance check done hot isn't accurate. You might want to remind them of the power of the innanet and the fact that there are 4864 of US out here of which a few could be potential customers...

Congratulations on getting the bike running, and doing the valve shims correctly.

 

well i called the shop this morning and read him out the measured clearances, and he was real nice about it. He's going to give back an hour labor cost, which would cover the new shims and the bucket holding tool.

if i understand correctly, which is not always the case, you guys are saying that I need to get the biggest (320) shim on all 8 valves? The shop can't remember if they put all the shim/bucket assys back in the exact same spot, but if we assume that the smallest sims are on the biggest clearances, and the biggest shims on the smallest then we get:

Intake .35 .35 .38 .38 mm
290 290 290 285
exhaust .40 .40 .43 .48 mm
280 280 280 275

can i order all 320's and be in spec, or do i have to run thru the chart?

 

ummmmm yeah i just did the math, should be fine.....

290 = 2.9mm right? if so then i can get all 320's, as long as that means 3.2mm

edit: ran thru the chart and did a few permutations... i think i should get 4 x 310's and 4 x 320's... sound good?

 

Your results will be determined by what is actually, currently in the buckets for the measured clearances. Assuming that the shims you listed go with the clearances you listed, then it seems that you need:

2 x 3.00
2 x 3.05
3 x 3.10
1 x 3.15


You should review the posts on page 3 posts on this thread:

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... rt=30.html

 

so, measured clearances, 1>4, L>R same with installed shims (below). G designates ground by the mechanic

In .35 .35 .38 .38 mm
280g 280 285 290
Ex .40 .40 .43 . 48 mm
290g 290g 280 275

on the ground ones im just going to go in spec w. whatever shim the chart specifies,
but what about the unground ones? considering i have new stem seals/whole vavle job should i go .05 loose to allow for the seals etc. to wear, or should i just go with spec?

 

Intake #1: who knows, since they ground the shim. Is this the first time these guys, like, worked on an internal combustion engine?

Intake #2: 3.00 needed.

Intake #3: 3.10 needed

Intake #4: 3.15 needed


Exhaust #1: who knows.

Exhaust #2: who knows.

Exhaust #3: 3.05 needed

Exhaust #4: 3.05 needed


On the ground shims, what you really need to do is to measure (accurate calipers) the thickness of the shim that is in there....ground and all.....and then you figure using that thickness.....for instance, a ground 280 may actually be a 276, or a 268, or a ?????, depnding how much they let The Gimp play with the power tools after they woke him up.........

 

i think im gonna just go with spec as is w.o measuring... if its an ACH loose i think I'll survive.... im not explaining that acronym, ill get in trouble....

they're not ground very much.....

 

I have ground shims before but they must be done on a surface grinder. (I am a machinist). Most bike shops do not have one and will usually have a bench grinder.. Want to try to hold a shim against the grinding wheel while its at 3800 RPM and the shim is getting hot?? How about keeping it PERFECTLY paralell??? If I were you and had a ground shim, I would beg, borrow or steal a set of 0-1 inch micrometers and make sure that both sides of the shim are PERFECTLY paralell.

 

I wouldn't grind a shim, I'd buy a new one given the cost. Not worth the hassle of messing anything up.

 

im definitely buying all new shims... im just going to take the shim marking as if it were actually to spec (ie 280 is really 280) when i order my new shims.

thanks fellas!! now on to the next problem.....

 

Moon, moon, moon, moon, moon..........don't do that. If you're taking the head back to the shoppe, have them measure those ground shims and find out what they really are (thickness); otherwise, you're asking for more problems!