Problems turning over ...

Okay, after a month of working on this thing in stages, I have this 550 Maxim ready turn over and do a carb sync. Problem is, when I push the start button, I get this slow turn over that wouldn't start a moped ... I tried to connect my car to it, no significant change. Okay, so maybe the battery is draining something off? disconnect the battery, car battery straight to bike via jumper cables with the car engine running, a few slow turns and stop. Let it set 30 secs, a few slow turns, and it stops. Never comes close to striking a spark.

So, what I am missing?

 

Check the grounds from the bike to the engine. If they are OK then I'd pull the starter and open it up. New brushes and clean up the commentator. Then bench check the starter before you put back on.

 

+1 for those two tips - the innards of the starter can get really gunked up.

 

I was thinking about the grounds a bit ago, I will go check. Having spent from 9-5:30 working on it, took a bit of a break.

I hadn't realized that about the starter and will check it. Have to use the book to figure out what the commentator is, I always thought that was one of those useless blow hards during athletic games or such.

 

The commutator is what the brushes contact to deliver current to the windings of the starter motor. It can get dirty and easily polished using denatured alcohol or the like.
I had a CB750 Super Sport that simply had a bad winding in the starter motor and went to a salvage yard in St. Louis to get a replacement for it for $30.00.
Worked like a charm. Simply put, the starter motor itself may be toast but clean up the contacts and give it another go.

 

I had the same problem with the starter turning slowly or sometimes not at all. Pulled it apart and found that alot of the grease from the end bearing, where the power lead from the battery is, had fouled the commutator and the carbon brushes. Cleaned it up and put it back together and it works fine now. Turns the engine over much quicker.

The commutator is the copper tube around the armature, that the brushes rub against. It has slots in it, which can get fouled up with carbon from the brushes and grease. These slots should be clean. Don't use a wire brush - just a mild degreaser, and cloth.

As you take the end cap off, make a note of how the brushes plate is located. It has some slots and notches in the starter motor body to line up with - otherwise the end cap won't go back on properly. Good luck with it.

 

Hi Mike be very careful to note how it comes apart. It can be a bit of a pain to get back together, you have to make sure all is aligned properly.

On the plus side that is probably your problem and it is easily resolved.

 

Thanks for the advice and suggestions folks.

I checked the voltage today and am getting a bit over 12 volts to the block, so the ground is fine. Tomorrow I'll pull the starter.

Thanks for letting me know what the commutator is, the index of the manual doesn't list it as a part ...

I'll let you know what I find.

 

So I pulled the starter apart and this is what I found: at the end where it connects into the motor - (sorry, I don't have a diagram - Clymer didn't think that non-professionals should service these so I don't know for certain which part is which and what they are called ...) - I found a large amount of hardened gunk I assume is grease of some sort. Needless to say, it certainly wasn't lubricating anything any more ... I cleaned that out, pulled out the gears and the ring around them, and along with the next full diameter disk that came out came a large amount of black grit. The stuff looks and smells like hard charcoal/ash with an added electrical smell to it. Now, I really mean this stuff is hard. With pressure, you can crush it, but it doesn't squish, it crunches.

To the other end ... Get the cap off and wheh!! There's that burnt ash smell again and a *whole* lot of ashy grit. The piece to which the brushes are attached are completely covered with soot - and not just dust, it is a hard coating that wouldn't just brush off. I figured out how to get the main piece out (I thought it was on a spring at first, then figured out it was magnetic ...) and got the bolt loose that held in the plate with the brushes.

I haven't measured the brushes yet. I have some questions at this point:
1st, with all this burnt soot and smell of electrical fire, should I even try cleaning this up or should we just get a replacement (used)?

2nd: When reassembling, where should there be grease and what type should be used?

3rd, when I was taking apart the last few pieces, involving pulling the magnet piece out, there were two parts which fell out that I am not sure where to put them back. The first is a small "bridge" piece which is clearly a part of the electrical hookup. I just don't know if it goes between the outer part of the coneection to the electrical plate from the brush plate or underneath it.

The second is a washer/ring about the size of a quarter with a center core about the size of a nickel. That's why I say it isi more like a ring than a washer.

Finally, the little plates which against which the brushes move - do those need to be polished somehow to removed grooves and scratches? Similarly do I need to polish long plates in the center of the starter and/or the long barrel within which it spins?

 

Mike search starter I know there is a diagram posted that will help. Clean it up with brake cleaner and relube the gears and the endcap surfaces. I used bearing grease on mine. Clean the commutator with glasscloth or even very fine sandpaper - go lightly. Blow out all the grit check the brushes and you should be in business.

 

Okay, figured it out, got it back together.

Tried to turn her over, not good with the battery, but its questionable anyways. Connected to car battery, started to crank nicely. Still didn't sound quite right though. Then the shit-hit-the-fan. I hooked up gas so it could really try to start, went to start it, and !spark! just to the left of the battery. Looks like part of the positive wire grounded out against the frame.

Now pressing the start button gets nothing but a click. Tried to bridge the solenoid and nothing happens, so now it is time to go through the starter circuit top to bottom ... I want to cry. I wish one of you were nearby to tell me if the cranking sound I am getting is natural or something to be concerned about. Never having heard it start, I don't know what it should sound like ...

 

Mike, sorry to hear about that.

After re-assembling the starter, I usually just test it before putting back on the bike. It just tells me if I got it right! Did you test it before reinstalling?

If it did test OK, then the wiring to the starter must be shorting out so as you say, tracing the circuit to identify that point is the next step.

If you hadn't tested the starter before rte-installing, my next step would be to remove it again and test it. At least you could isolate the problem if it is with the starter itself and go from there.

It isn't difficult to get something misplaced when putting the starter back together particularly if you don't have a clear schematic to follow. As bill says, there is one on here somewhere.

 

I searched for the schematic, the only one I found was for the 750.

I don't think I reassembled it improperly. It was pretty straight forward really. The only question at one point was which side of the starter brush plate did the bolt assembly go to. I figured that one out okay. I'll test it tomorrow separately. No big deal there. that thing comes off in a couple of minutes courtesy of my Skill Twist and the right connectors/drive parts.

So discouraging to get so far and then have something stop. I had to make new rubber gaskets as the old ones were too stretched out to use - no one had them locally and I didn't want to wait to order from Chacal.

After all that, getting it to crank and then nothing ... I spent all day on that stupid bike.

 

I know Mike, it can be disheartening but take a breather and have another go. At least the starter is easy to remove - unlike carbs! :lol:

 

Thanks Andrew. I am quite aware of that. If it wasn't for this group I wouldn't even be doing this. Coming here to vent and then getting reassurance and guidance has made all the difference in the world. I went from just trying to get a bike onto the road for as little as possible to having the first real hobby I have had in decades, and I owe it all to this forum.

 

Me too Mike. Just finished a complete carb rebuild and she fired up first time before I had done the on-bike synch and colourtune. Due in no small part to posts on this forum.

I don't ask that many questions here because I have been able to find the answers through search however I have one nagging and annoying issue with my alternator (stator) that seems "welded" in place. Can't shift it for the life of me but at the moment it doesn't need to come out. Mind you, it's in the back of my mind every time I look at the alternator cover! Another time, another thread though!

Sometimes I wonder what I would do with my spare time without the XJ although " 'er indoors" has her own thoughts on that! :wink: