'85 XJ700 Maxim X Water Pump trouble

Ok guys, I need your help once again. My maxim x is running hot in the hot weather. Sometimes it runs fine, other times it gets so hot that I have to pull over to let it cool off. I also have a rattle coming from what I've recently learned is the water pump. I'm wondering if this could be the impeller? The rattle is not always there, just sometimes. When it does rattle, it seems to last awhile. When the rattle stops, it doesn't come back for awhile. I'm confused.

Any help would be appreciated, as I do not know much about the water pump on this bike. My service manual is for the air cooled model and doesn't talk about how to check the water pump.

Also, I ride this bike daily to and from work (about 5 miles to and from). Would it do any harm to ride with the rattling until I can fix it?

Thanks.

 

Is your fan kicking on as normal? When cold, have you popped the cap and started it up to see if it looks like the coolant is flowing? Have you flushed the radiator? Have you verified your coolant level by popping off the radiator cap by the gas tank?

Just a few thoughts on some easy checks first. If the rattle is not there always, I would try a few other things before ripping into the impeller.

I had to troubleshoot cooling problems earlier, fortunately, the impeller was not involved.

 

Double check everything JoeFriday mentioned.

But, if it's intermittent that's a bit more odd.

Your thermostat may be sticking (probably my first guess)

The rattle is odd though. The water pump is gear driven off the same shaft as the generator rotor. The water pump has a plastic gear and the drive gear is steel.
There is an inspection hole in the clutch cover right where the drive gear rides. (small round disc with two large phillips screws directly opposite the generator). You can pop that open and take a look at how the two gears mesh together. The cover is sealed with an O-ring so you should be able to remove it and re-install it without creating any leaks.
The drive gear is held on with a simple bolt and behind the gear there is supposed to be a spacer collar. IF the collar is gone, the drive gear can float back and forth on the shaft and cause an intermittent drive situation.
IF that is the case, you probably stipped part of the driven gear (plastic one on the impeller shaft).
You should be able to see when you get the cover off.

Take a look at the online parts diagram for a breakdown if I confused you or drop me a PM and I'll try to email you some pics.
The impeller is molded right onto the shaft and the pump seal rides in the impeller so if the impeller or impeller shaft was bouncing around it would be leaking coolant from the weep hole on the bottom of the pump.

How long have you owned the bike and do you know any of the history?

 

I can tell you about one rattle Maxim-X's are famous for...it's the radiator cover. And you can confuse it with many other things. Sometimes it rattles, other times not. A little weather stripping applied to the cover/radiator in some strategic locations will stop the rattle. Eliminate the radiator cover before you assume it's something else.

 

Thanks for the suggestions guys. First, the fan works fine, but isn't enough to cool the engine while riding. However, with the engine off and the fan on, the engine cools pretty quick.

Second, yes, the coolant is flowing and there is pressure. I have refilled the coolant a couple of times. At first I was refilling the coolant at the cap above the radiator, and I've also put coolant in the over flow tank. But when i put it in the over flow tank, it leaks out the over flow tube that's connected to that tank. Probably put too much coolant in the tank.

Third, I have not flushed the radiator.

I have only had this bike for a year. I tried to pop that cap off that Designer Mike mentioned to see the gears, but had trouble getting it off. I didn't want to force it because I was afraid I'd break something. I can tell it's been off before though, cause one of the phillips head screws has a partially stripped head.

I don't know the history of this bike at all, but I do know that the P.O. did some weird stuff to it. It did overheat on me last summer after I bought it if it wasn't moving, but as long as I was going, the temp would go down. I know in a car that that is a classic sign of a bad thermostat. But now it overheats wether I'm going or not. Also, there was no rattle last summer in the water pump.

It still runs and drives great, except for the overheating here and there. What's weird is that I rode it all day Saturday and it tried to overheat a couple of times, so I checked the coolant level and it looked like there was no coolant in the bike. So I bought some and added it. It then ran hot, but did not try to overheat. It would get close to overheating and then start to cool off. So I thought it was just the thermostat being lazy until I started hearing the rattle coming from the water pump. Now I'm concerned that the water pump has gone bad, and maybe the thermostat too?

 

Thanks, but I'm sure it's not the radiator cover. You can distinctly hear it coming from the water pump. And if you put your fingers on the water pump cover, you can feel vibrations that match up to the sound of the rattle. I fear something in there may be spinning loosley or something. But that is just a guess because I don't know exactly how it works yet.

As I rev the motor, the rattle revs too.

 

Fan should cool it down once it kicks on. If that's not happening, Designer_Mike's idea about the thermostat is a good one to check. A royal pain to replace though.

I have a back-up thermostat I got from O-Reilly. It's the motorad that www.maxim-x.com did a study on. It's under the name Murray Ultra, and PN is 15860. I think it was around $10, so it's an easy test. However, be very careful opening the housing. If you tear up that o-ring, you've got an issue.

 

This is easy to look at...more difficult to fix if this is the problem.

Here are some pics of the access hole to see the gear drive.
http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll16 ... rpump2.jpg

And the plastic gear on the water pump.

http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll16 ... ction=view¤t=pumps.jpg

If you take the bolt out of the steel gear, there should be a space collar behind it.
It's part number 39 on the parts diagram.
http://www.keystonekawasakiyamaha.com/f ... 5&fveh=124

 

Thanks for the info, I could only find a thermostat for $44 at bikebandit.com, so your $10 one beats it big time. I will look for it.

The thermostat was my first guess too, but it doesn't explain the rattling noise in the water pump... unless there is no water getting to the pump because the thermostat is sticking... then maybe that would make it rattle? Hmmmm.

 

Maybe it is cavitating. That's a pretty wild guess. You've got directions to also do an inspection. Let us know how it goes.

 

Thanks Designer Mike, but the first link didn't work for me.

 

Should work now.

 

Thanks Designer Mike! It looks as though it might be the water pump drive gear that is rattling. That is where the sound is coming from.

 

If that's the problem....it will be a PIA to fix
Not hard, just a hastle.

You'll have to pull a bunch of the cooling tubes apart, and the one on the back of the water pump tends to get seized into the housing. If that one would come apart it will save you some work.
BUT...once you go this far, you might want to replace all the (23 yr old) O-rings on the cooling system with new ones.

 

On the o-ring note Napa has a metric o-ring kit(at least the one near me) that had the proper size o-rings for the larger coolant tubes. I had a leak after doing the valve shims on my x I think they cost 30 cents or so each. By kit I mean a drawer they pulled out and we matched the o-ring up and only had to buy what you needed not the whole thing.

 

I picked up a 419 pc metric o-ring set. It has more than paid off so far.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002K ... oh_product

 

Ok, so here's what happened today, and what I think may be going on. When I took the bike to work this morning, the rattle was there. When I left work this morning to go to a dr. appt. the rattle was there and the bike dumped a little coolant on my shoe. Then it sat for about 3 hours. When I started it back up to go back to work this afternoon, the rattle wasn't there and the bike cooled off while driving like it should when it got hot (needless to say I was happy). So then it sat for a couple of hours. When I fired it up to go home for the day, there was no rattle (happy again). I stopped on the way home at the grocery store. When I left the grocery store and fired it back up, the rattle was there (not happy).

Being that I was frustrated with it, I reved the bike up a lot. What I noticed was, that it sounds almost like the plastic water pump sprocket is getting stuck, and the metal one is turning. Therefore, perhaps, the sound of the rattle could be the sound of the metal sprocket hitting the plastic sprocket or the metal sprocket is hitting the side of the plastic one causing it to hit the cover. Perhaps the metal sprocket catches the plastic one just right and gets the pump to work sometimes, and other times it does not. It could be a spacer issue like Designer Mike has said, but why in the world would it start having problems now after a year of working if it was the spacer? Hmmm. I am planning on giving it an oil change this weekend, so when I have the oil all drained out, I will take that cover off and have a better look. I will post what I find for other fellow Maxim X bikers.

 

The spacer collar is a bit thinner that the width of the plastic gear, so if the gear was as far as possible from alignement, if the plastic was in good shape it would still drive the pump, but as the gear wears you get less and less engagement and with any gear that starts to strip, it only gets worse as it wears.

When the bike it "rattling" and running hot, check how hot the radiator is.

Then the next time you get a rattle-free ride, check it again. If the pump drive is bad, the rad should be cooler when your engine is overheating than when it is running at normal temp (due to lack of high flow).

That cover should come off easy, just don't strip the screw any more. You'll need a big fat phillips for it!...and it wouldn't be a bad idea to use an impact driver

 

No problem getting the screws out, I've got the right phillips for that. Once the screws are out though, the lid seems glued on. I tried prying it, but I didn't want to break anything so I gave up.

As of now, the rattle is there, but not as loud. In case I do have to replace that plastic drive sprocket, I'm assuming it won't be too hard.

 

There is an o-ring on the inside. So, you'll have to pry hard enough to get it to unseat.

I haven't had to replace it, but DesignerMike reported the replacement to be a PITA.

 

The radiator is cooler when there is no rattle and hotter with the rattle. But it doesn't seem to overheat when the rattle is not there. The gauge will read over the line, and then the fan kicks on and the temp goes down. When the rattle is present, the radiator gets really hot and the fan still comes on, but the engine will not cool down, even while driving. This weekend I will change out the thermostat and see if there is a difference rattle or not. If the bike cools with the new thermostat and the rattle, then I'll know the pump is working and it was just the thermostat. But if not, I'll know it's the pump. At least that's the theory. But I'll still need to figure out what's causing the rattle. With some luck, replacing the thermostat will stop the rattling in the water pump.

Let me know if you guys thinks this makes sense, or is a possibility. Like I said, I'm gonna try it this weekend and see anyway, but I like to read your opinions.

 

Sounds like the rattle may be the plastic pump gear trying to catch like DesignerMike mentioned. I would take it that when there is no rattle, it's not pumping fluid. Replacing the thermostat is a PITA. It would be easier to pull the small side cover off of the pump and have a peek first. Sounds like you are going to end up working on the pump regardless.

 

Ok, I had to take the whole thermostat housing off the bike to get the thermostat out. It is a PITA! One of the bolts that keeps the housing shut, seized and no matter what I try, I can't get it out. However, I did manage to get the thermostat itself out of the housing. I tested it (the old thermostat) in boiling water, and it works. I did buy the Motorad 2040-180 at Oreilly's and it does fit. Tomorrow, I get to put the thermostat housing with the new thermostat back on the bike, I bet it will suck. Once I do that and drive it around, I will see if it still overheats or not.

The pump still rattles, but not as often. And it seems like the harder I drive the bike, the better it works. Also, the rattling is not as loud as it has been. I have yet to look at the drive sprockets. I have also noticed the the rattle will sometimes stop if I make a left turn. Leading me to believe the the drive sprocket must be loose inside the pump.

 

Got the thermostat housing back on with the Motorad 2040-180 installed. Now, the thermostat housing is leaking. Looks like it will have to be replaced. Also, now the fan isn't coming on. So I need to know which wires control the fan. There were a couple of wires plugged into the housing and I got them all plugged back in where they go, but still no fan.

I also took off the cover and inspected the gears to the water pump. I found that the drive shaft that is connected to the lower metal sprocket (gear) is loose. Because of this, the gear is extended past the plastic gear and therefore not engaging it. I can physically push it in and out, but I can't pull it out completely. So the rattling has to be that gear turning and hitting the cover. Both of the gears look good though, and not worn or chewed up.

So I'm thinking that I need a new thermostat housing and a new drive shaft for the water pump. I also need to figure out how to get the fan working again. I rode it today, but I couldn't get very far with out it overheating. Bummer. I'm thinking I should have just left it alone so at least I could ride.

 

That sux...but at least you are figuring out the problem.

Thermostat housing: where's it leaking?? I would try just a smidge of silicone on the two mating faces. It's not the best option, but you don't have a lot of other options without a new housing.

Fan switch> I BELIEVE there is a ground wire hooked up to the therm housing. IIRC, the high temp switch actually switches the ground side of the fan. There is one big sensor with two flat wires hooked up to it (they are for the temp gauge).
There is one small sensor with a single round connector. This is the fan switch. Make sure you have a good connection with the wire. I believe you could test the fan circuit by simply grounding this wire.

Drive shaft> Did you take the metal gear off the shaft to confirm the collar is behind it? Is the bolt holding the gear onto the shaft tight?
That shaft does "float" until the gear and collar are tightened against the bearing behind it. The fact that the shaft would not come out is GOOD. I personally haven't seen how it is held in there, but I know mine all float around until you tighten the gear and collar.
Glad to hear the gears appear to be OK.

Take the gear off and tell me what's behind it.
Once the gear is off, can you spin the shaft by hand?
How far does it move (in and out)?

I don't think changing the shaft is easy AT ALL>> The other end is burried in the generator drive end. I've never been in there so no suggestions if you actually do need a new shaft.
I do know that if you take the clutch cover off, the shaft floats up and down quite a bit (thus the need for the bearing in the clutch cover)

I have a parts motor torn down, and I could probably pop off the clutch cover in no-time to take a look for you.
And yes, I have the parts you would need.

 

Designer Mike, I can't thank you enough for your help. I didn't know that the shaft was supposed to float, so that makes me feel better. I did take out the bolt that holds the gear in place, but couldn't get the gear off. I didn't try that hard to get it off though. I couldn't see behind it. The shaft has a little play when you try to turn it by hand, but it won't turn much. Although I was trying to turn it by grabbing the gear. Should the gear just pop off when undoing the bolt?

I thought that ground wire might be the culprit for the fan problem, and I did readjust it, but maybe not enough. Thank you for telling me which wires are which. The gauge works, so I got those wires where they go, but the connections to the fan may not be good. I think I might not have it grounded right.

I found other thermostat housings on ebay for $20 bucks, so that may be the route I go, unless you have one for cheaper and in good condition. I was trying to get everything fixed for a rally this coming Saturday, but it looks like I won't get to go.

Thanks for your help! I will post more when I know more.

 

Yes, once you take the bolt out, the gear should slide right off.
With the bolt tight, that shaft shouldn't float (the collar and gear hold it tight against the bearing)...so if it floats with the gear and bolt tight, you are most likely either missing the collar or the other end has come loose.

I have two housings, but they aren't pretty. BUT are functional.

For clarification since I skipped it, I believe there is a ground wire that bolts onto the housing mount bolt (black with a right terminal)...or at least mine's that way.
And the single post sensor has a pop-on wire. IF you ground the pop-on wire, the fan should spin I think. There is also a three-prong connector just before it goes back into the harness. The fact that the gauge works means it's still plugged in, but possibly that post is corroded. (doubtful)

The fan connector is in that same bundle so you might have disconnected it by accident. Black two prong.

You got a lot of time before Saturday. No worries (YET)

If the shaft is loose on the other end, they you have bigger problems that will require removing the clutch cover at a minimum....which also means pulling the water pump and all the cooling lines. Keep your fingers cross you don't have to do that!

Take pics if you can!

 

You have a PM. I have an extra thermostat housing.

Before you go that route, pull the thermostat housing off again and make sure you have the o-ring seated right. There is a ridge for it and it has to be seated right to seal. If you popped in the new thermostat and did not pull the o-ring off of the old one, that is your problem.

Sorry Mike, just noticed that you offered up some extra's too...

 

It has nothing to do with the O-ring, I made sure the new thermostat was properly installed. It's got to be because of that bolt/screw that wouldn't come out. It is litterally a piece of the housing and won't come out. I tried using my special tools for getting out stripped bolts/screws to get it out, but I couldn't get it. The head of the bolt/screw came off, and I believe the rest of it is rusted to the housing. I will have to get a new housing regardless, but I am going to try using some silicon to get me by.

I'm starting to wish this was the air cooled model!

 

I will try to take a video of it with my phone and post it on youtube.com for you guys to see what's going on with the water pump. I will post the link to the video when I can get it up.

 

I got a good look at how it sits on the inside.
It floats in a square-ish drive and won't come out because it has a shoulder behind the clutch housing.
There is another shoulder on the shaft where it goes through the clutch housing and the bearing in the housing keeps it located in place.

Also, there is a bolt behind the gear that holds the cover to the crankcase, BUT that bolt has a large flat washer that also holds the bearing from coming out SO, it is possible that large flat washer is also missing and letting the bearing slide out. That is very possible since when the shaft slides out, the shoulder inside will hit the clutch basket and make a serious rattle.
Pretty hard to explain without pics so I'lll have to open the cover of a engine in one piece and take some pics.

 

Thank you so much for going through all this for me, man. It has been kinda wet here in Tulsa, so I'm having trouble finding time to get out and work on my bike and take pics. But I'll get some as soon as I can.

 

Ok, here's the latest. I put silicon around the gap of the thermostat housing and it seemed to be holding, until I checked it today and there is a small leak. However, the bike will not start now. It turns over, but won't start. With the thermostat housing being located where it is, I know some coolant dripped on to the engine. I think some of the coolant went down into the spark plugs on the left two cylinders. However, I don't have the right size socket to take the spark plugs out (yet), but the boots were a bit wet and I can see some moisture sitting on top of the plugs. It resembles a light morning dew.

Today after work I'm gonna get some pics and maybe a video seeing as how it's really nice today. Hopefully you will be able to hear the engine and know what's keeping it from firing up.

 

The sparkplugs should take a 18mm (deep well) socket

If there is water collecting around the plugs she won't be happy.
If you take the engine head covers off the side (item 8 & 9 on the cylinder parts list)
http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorc ... 3sch514774

There is a small drain hole (about 3/16" diamter) that goes all the way into the inner spark plug well to allow any water to drain.
If the drain hole is plugged up, the plug well will fill with water and the plug won't fire under water!

I haven't had a chance to upload the other pics I took of the water pump drive. (sorry)

 

Ok, so here are a couple of pics of the metal gear to the water pump. You can see how it is extended past the plastic gear. In the video you can see how the shaft that it's connected to floats around. I can push it in, pull it out, and move it in any direction. But, it is locked to a point that I can not pull it out. Also, you can see in the video that the gear doesn't look like it is on the shaft all the way. It looks like it needs to be pushed on to the shaft more.

I also try starting the bike so you can hear what it sounds like when turning over. I am getting ready to take the cylinder covers off after I finish typing.

Sorry for the poor quality of the video, but I only have my phone to record digital videos.


http://xjbikes.com/coppermine/displayim ... ize=1.html

http://xjbikes.com/coppermine/displayim ... ize=1.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvxbtTvpLDA

 

All I have to get the covers off the cylinders is an allen wrench. The bolts are on there very tight, and painted over. I can't get them loose.

It's getting to the point where I am considering selling this bike and buying a new one, or buying a new air-cooled motor for it! Frustrating. lol

 

Wow...it looks like the bearing behind the gear is shot and/or not held in place properly.

When I said "float" I meant in and out...not all around!

Sorry...but I'd say BAD NEWS at this point.

Take the bolt out of the center of the gear and slip it off.
Take a photo with gear off (I guarantee you will be bummed)

I'll bet my paycheck that the bolt holding the bearing into the housing is either gone or the washer is gone.

Here's a slideshow of what you should find and I'm sure you won't find.
http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll16 ... ce3311.pbw

Surf the album on photobucket too to read all the comments I posted. You can also see the full size high res photos.

Now, it's possible that just the bearing is destroyed. (that would almost be better).
BUT I will guess that the recess where the bearing is supposed to reside is all chewed up (or both actually).

If the housing is killed, you have some work ahead of you.
The cooling lines and water pump will all have to come off.
Then pull the clutch cover and you will most likely have to replace the clutch cover if it got chewed up.
I have a spare!

Too bad you are so far away or I'd suggest you trailer it over and we fix it here.

Do you have a buddy with some garage space. This will probably be a difficult repair in a parking lot.

P.S. It would be a BITCH to put an air-cooled in there I'm afraid.
Don't worry...you'll get it fixed.

 

The gear doesn't want to come off, and I'm afraid to pry real hard to get it off. I don't know if I can fix it, maybe I should just sell the thing. I have a ton of stuff going on right now, little money, and not very good tools. I think I'm screwed. Surely there is someone out there that is looking for a project bike. It does have full coverage insurance on it though, maybe I can file a claim?!?!

P.s. Your link to the slide show doesn't work.

(Sigh)

 

Try it again. There seems to be a problem with posting the link if I'm logged into photobucket at the same time.

If you try to pry the gear off, use two screwdrivers on opposite sides of the gear.

Hate to see you sell it.
But you'll need to do it yourself or the shop will whack you for the job.

Other members would have to chime in with some garage space or time to help.

Unfortunately my shop and parts are 1300 miles away.

 

I haven't been able to get the cylinder head covers off to look at the drain hole. All I have are simple allen wrenches, and the bolts are too tight. I have been able to pull the spark plugs and they do have spark, but one or two are pretty wet. She still won't start, but acts like she wants to. It seems she is really close to starting. It's very frustrating.