HeLP!

Hello. I have recently reinstalled my carbs (they are now CLeAN, clean!! I Tell you!) and am having difficulty getting the bike to start. It turns over, but the engine will not fire. I am getting spark, I have fuel, and it's a pretty brand new air filter.

Coil Specs: at coil 1 & 4: 13.72-73 at plug: 3.4
2 & 3: 14.02-03 at plug: 3.5

Just for kicks I checked for cap resistance, and all of them fall within spec: 4.83-5.02 (plus, they are brand new)

The other day I shocked myself a couple of times checking for spark against the manifold (off switch! can't... reach it..) so I know it's sparking.

I installed new dyna coils, new plugs, pulled the carbs (x3) and made sure they were spotless.

How long do you have to wait for the carb bowls to fill with fuel? Do you leave the petcock on prime?

I've looked at pics of hitachi carbs, and mine has a bunch of tubes flopping willy nilly (overflow, my guess) but on the main tube, there are 2 inlets, where on the pics I have seen, there is only one. One is between carbs 1&2, the one I am using for fuel (where the fuel filter is installed) is bewteen 2&3. NO gas leaks.

I'm getting pretty frustrated at this point. Yesterday it was running (albeit pretty poorly) before the plugs fouled yet again; I changed the plugs and then the bike would not start. Just crank and crank until the battery died.

Anyone with suggestions (that work) would be considered godlike in my eyes, and I would worship them with small animal sacrifices (lots of squirrels in the yard) and incense.

 

These bikes can exhibit an interesting phenomenon that I would not have believed if I had not experienced it first hand.

A slightly low battery can (and will) produce enough current to spin the motor over (vigorously even) but not enough to produce a nice strong fuel-igniting spark.

Pull the battery and ensure it's fully FULLY charged.

Install a set of NEW (not "these look fine") spark plugs that you have checked and gapped to spec.

Put it on PRI. See what happens.

 

Thanks bigfitz. It's a new battery, charged to 13.2 (more than 12.8, that's for sure) verified by my multimeter. I have it on a slow charge right now.

Brand new plugs. BP8ES (shop tried to sell me BPR8ES... is there a difference? They said it just has a resistor.. something I am guessing I don't need at this point.)

Plugs are gapped to .75 (give or take a few microns). I will re-assess, however.

I'm getting ready to call a mechanic. I've been struggling with this for over a week now.

Does anyone live in Lower Michigan who would be willing to swing by and take a look? I'd pay for gas and beer...

Heck, I'd by you dinner and sing you a tune if it gets the bike running.

 

exactly what I am going through right now

 

Resistor vs. non-resistor plugs: Some XJs came equipped with resistor plug caps so you don't want to use resistor plugs with those; using non-resistor plugs on a bike NOT equipped with resistor caps won't matter either (except you will transmit excessive electrical "noise.") If your bike is stock, I would use what it specifically calls for.

"gapped to .75"--- Millimeters? That works out to more than .029", which is on the "wide" side of the gap range. Since plug gaps widen as they wear, I would set them to the small end of the recommended gap range for your bike instead. And while you're at it, be sure all your plug caps are screwed on tight.

 

done and done. No effect

 

Just a thought, but have you tried spraying carb cleaner in the air box and see if it starts? I had what I thought were clean carbs, but the freakin' enrichments were still clogged.

If it starts with a bit of carb cleaner blown in there, then that is your problem.

 

just curiouse where your carbs are set at ? 2 1/12 turns out to start and did you bench synch it while you had the rack off?, just a thought through my minescule pee brain

 

Determine what element is missing!

Fuel, Air and Spark.

If you spray Starting Fluid in the Air Box and the Engine runs a moment.
You have a FUEL delivery issue.

 

Nope, won't even start with starter spray. Just keeps cranking til the battery dies...

However, I did find some sort of creature living in my fuel bowls. Not sure if this would cause the bike to not turn over, but I know it didn't belong in there.

I posted the video on my blog...

It LiVES

My pilot screws are 2.5 turns out.

 

Silly question, but do you have the choke on and verified that when it is on that it is opening up? Try that and open up the throttle while spraying in starter spray and if it doesn't fire up, then you know it is an issue with spark and not air/fuel. If it does start, then you're looking at a fuel delivery issue.

On a side note... an amoeba??? That's got to be a new one!

 

Yep, choke was on, and tried opening up the throttle, to no effect (other than a dwindling battery)

I may bench sync, just to be sure that the butterflys are opening as they are supposed to (though it started yesterday... can't see that changing..)

It acts like it's not getting spark, but I checked again tonight and you can see the spark quite plainly.

Since the coils are within spec, and I'm getting spark, it's got to be fuel, right?

 

I would think so, but the fact that the choke is on and the throttle is open when you're spraying starter fluid in makes me second guess that. You've used an ohmeter to check to make sure everything is within spec.

Cylinder compression? Engine flooding? Have you verified your float heights? Do a compression check first. Easier than pulling and taking the carbs apart *again*. :/

EDIT: I just thought, if you already have the carbs off... why not spray some a little starter fluid directly in and see if it briefly catches? DO NOT do this standing beside the bike. Stand in front and turn her over. That should eliminate a spark problem at least in theory.

 

If I do spray starter fluid, where exactly do I spray it? In a manifold?

What should I expect? Fireball? I'm assuming that's what's going to happen, since your instructions state don't stand next to it but in front.

I'll give it a try...

 

I would guess with that much air in the combustion chamber, that you might get a backfire or possibly a quick combustion flame (but nothing that is going to cause any damage if you only use a little. But yeah, give a quick shot inside each inlet boot.

 

If i do get a fireball, then this indicates spark, yes? Makes sense.

I need to do a compression check. But having the bike go from running great yesterday (albeit sync issues) to not running at all today is odd.

 

Oh, didn't know she was running yesterday, so yes... that would likely eliminate that, but it wouldn't hurt to try.

The engine should actually start briefly. A backfire or brief flame is just worst case senario and not likely. Better safe though. I've been singed before working on a car.

If it does start, then it's back to the carbs again... and the fun begins. Start with the float heights.

 

I'm not expert, far from it, but it sounds like your battery's dying too quickly. I had all kinds of problems until I put a new one, and it looked great on the voltmeter. Now that I have other problems, the battery never dies no matter how bad or long I work it. and yes I seen spark ground to the head bolt with the old battery. there's my 2 cents

 

That's certainly something to think about. This is a brand new battery though. Hmm...

I'm hoping the crud in the carbs was the main issue. I'll post more tomorrow.

If anyone else has any other ideas, I'd love to hear them. Also, if anyone in MI is interested in swinging by, I still have that altar set up.

 

I noticed on carbs 2 and 3 that the little port is blocked with.. plastic? Some kind of material. What is that all about? I can't drain the float bowls because of those. Do I poke a hole in them?

 

which little port? got a pic?

 

You know how you unscrew the float bowl screw to drain the carb well? On carbs 2 & 3 the outlet port is blocked by what appears to be plastic (or something.) Fuel comes out the float bowl drain screw hole.

I'll take a pic tomorrow.

 

Get an Inline FUEL Filter working for you.

 

Gas tank sealer ? Is the inside of the tank clean ?

 

Nope, as far as I know, no sealant. So those ports should be open. It's okay to poke them with a sharp object to open them up?

 

Already got one. Thanks goodness. The fuel line I bought (3.99 a foot!) started degrading (it had a blue inner core) and I could see little pieces of it inside the fuel filter. But I changed that out and was still having trouble.

 

If there are little pieces of it inside the fuel filter there are much tinier remnants in your carbs, betcha anything.

If the carbs WERE TRULY clean; pull the rack and yank the float bowls, flush/blow everything out REAL WELL, replace the bogus fuel line everywhere it's fitted; clean out your petcock (it's upstream of the fuel filter) and hope for the best.

 

Luckily, I only used one small piece (between petcock and fuel filter). The rest was used on my aux gas tank setup. Carb bits have been soaking all night in carb cleaner. I had about a foot of decent fuel line that I am replacing the other bits with. However, I didn't see any of the blue bits anywhere inside the carb, just inside the fuel filter (yay!) but am cleaning them out anyway.

That weird amoeba creature tho... that was odd. I'm trying to decide a name for him.

 

Jose Cuervo............? 8O

 

There are several little tubes within the carbs, so I'd like to see what you're referring to before I say go start poking. A simple carb soak, boil, whatever isn't going to clean your carbs if the ports are blocked.. sometimes you need something to actually get in there and clean them out. On the really small ones, I used guitar string to clear the passages. Once you spray carb cleaner through those passages and the stream comes out nicely out the other side, then you know you truly have them clean. If nothing gets through or only a little gets through, then they sare still blocked. Those carb cleaner, guitar string and compressed air to blow through the passages comes in very handy when cleaning your carbs.

So did it start spraying directly in with the carbs off?

 

I don't know what that crud was, but after poking it with a special tool I have, the stuff came right out. It was a mix of some white stuff (almost like the consistency of dried polishing compound) and dirt.

The good news is, IT STARTS! IT RUNS! It still needs a good tuning, but for now, the bike is on the road.

I posted a video on my blog. Check it out!

And thanks to everyone who made suggestions. Over the next week, I am going to be working to get it 100%, but I'm happy with the 96% for right now.

 

Good job! Sounds great! That hangin idle is an air leak of an unsynced carb. Got the 2 glass bottle method??
We have the same bike, but for some reason it looks smaller than mine on your video! Maybe its my imagination.
Oh well, enjoy riding sir!
-Christoph

 

air leak? Could explain the poor sync results I experienced. Check my blog (haven't figured out how to post video here yet... but I will.) For now, here's a photo. I'm not sure why #3 is causing me so much difficulty, but as you can imagine, it makes it tough to sync correctly.

Ideas?

 

Major AIR Leak preventing Manifold Vacuum at Intake Manifold.

Where the Intake Manifold seats to the Cylinder Head MOST LIKELY.
O-ring Seal aged and no longer Air Tight.
(Seal the Manifold to the Head with a Smeared-in Bead of RTV Sealant all around the Manifold)***
***Removing the Manifold RISKY if Cap Screws are seized. High Probability.

Other factors:
Bad Manifold or Shaft Seal Air Leaks
Rings
Valves
Worn Cam Lobe on 3

 

That is a really really cool meter!! I want one!

 

I've looked, and it appears to be a tight seal. Can I use propane or starter fluid safely here to test?

 

That's a Morgan Carb tune... awesome piece of equipment.

 

Guess who carries them in stock.........

 

Do you have that Gauge hooked-up 1, 2, 3, 4

Or is the Photo right: 4, 3, 2, 1 ???

 

1 is on the far left, correct? (following the coil numbering) but it seems to be backwards when it comes to the carbs (which are imprinted 4,3,2,1 in that order.) If that's the case, then the port on the manifold that is open for the tank vacuum is #2 (2nd port over from left). I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that cylinder 3 is the one with issues, when in fact it is cylinder #2.

Why does this have to be so confusing?

 

+1. If you're in this "for the long haul" (or have multiple multi-cylinder bikes) it's a worthwhile investment for sure. Plus you don't even need to completely remove the gas tank if you're just checking or making minor tweaks.

 

Sorry should have read the whole thread prior to my last response...

Cylinders are numbered 1-4 from left-right when seated on the bike.

"open for the tank vacuum" not while trying to sync, right? You're on "PRI" beacause the CarbTune is hooked up to all 4 manifolds, correct?
Check to be sure the vacuum nipple itself isn't loose in the manifold if that's the pot the petcock line hooks up to.

 

My bike is so far out of tune now I'm having a difficult time getting it back into sync. The idle seems to change (possibly due to the out of sync issue) jumping from 3000rpms to below 1000.

The numbers in the photo are reversed. It's cylinder #2 that is really out of sync. The #2 port is hooked up to the sync tubing during the sync. It's on PRI. Vacuum nipple is not loose (that I can tell, any way). I'm going to recheck the manifold side of the intake and see if something is loose.

I tried riding the bike to work last night and it handled so poorly, I only got about a half mile before I turned around and came back. Poor throttle response in 1st, seemed to be ok in second, albeit slow response on the throttle, but downshifting caused the bike to drop to below 500rpms. Started right back up, but difficult to "rev up". Choke caused the bike to rev to over 3500rpms.

I'm happy that it's running at least, but this is almost worse than it not running because I'm so close but no cigar.

Thanks for the reclarification on the cylinders. I kind of knew that, but the carbs being numbered backwards threw me for a loop.

 

You might need to simply step back, take a deep breath; and pull the carbs off again.

Be 110% sure all 4 slides pass the "clunk test" with flying colors.

Check your float levels using the "clear tube method."

Do a very careful bench sync and be sure the idle stop screw allows the butterflies to close COMPLETELY. All of them.

Smear a dab of silicone grease around the inside lip of the manifolds before you reinstall the carbs; be sure they all get seated properly in their manifolds.

Fire it up and check for air leaks again before reattaching the carbtune.

 

Passed the clunk test.
Bench synched prior to reinstall

Has anyone ever done the float test while carbs on bike? Anyone? Show of hands please. No? Crap.

Will give your suggestions a try.

 

The photo of the Meter shows you have NO Manifold Vacuum on the Line 2nd from the Left.
The Manifold Vacuum is LOW because there is "Something" preventing that Hole from drawing a Vacuum --> Between the Throttle Plate and the Combustion Chamber.

Throttle Shaft Seals
Throttle Butterfly Open far more than others.
Intake Manifold Not Clamped Securely
Intake Manifold Cracked or Split -- (Sometimes requires probing)
Cracked Rubber Manifold to Head Base
Manifold NOT AIR TIGHT to Cylinder Head
<><><><>
Cylinder NOT Drawing Vacuum
Burned Valve (Test Compression)
Tight Valve (Test Compression Wet Test)
Bad Rings (Test Compresstion -- Dry/Wet)
<><><><>
Major Mechanical
Stuck Valves
Scored Cylinder Wall
Piston Crown Cracked
Piston Crown Holed
Cylinder Head Gasket Blown
(Compression Checks: Dry / Wet )
(Blowby Test)

Get the Values of a Compression Test ASAP.

 

Wouldn't an air leak explain his idle issues as well?

 

Yes.
Of course.
An AIR Leak!

At any of the sources I listed.
I'm sorry for not being more specific.