Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip *CLOSED*

Hi guys,

I thought I would post on here to see what kind of advice I can get.

I'm about to embark on a spontaneous 2000km+ trip, one of those things us twenty-somethings are known for. I'm taking my 1982 XJ650 Seca with 84K on it. It's been rebuilt in 03 and again in 07 - with aftermarket parts for the carbs. I love my Seca, its the perfect "basic" bike - the clutch is buttery, the engine is smooth and no one has anything like it in town (at least not in the aesthetic shape I keep it in, immaculate!).

It's run great up until this season, when I noticed that it was running quite rich. It started smelling of gas. Then, about two weeks ago, my girlfriend and I swapped bikes (shes on a BMW F650CS 2004, beautiful bike) and when she took off from a stoplight, I noticed quite a large plume of black smoke. I took it home and had a look at the sparkplugs and they were covered in black soot (another sign of it running rich).

Because I'm about to head out on a trip, I took it into the shop and had it looked it. Appearantly its the carb float needles, which are aftermarket, which they think are garbage. They want me to replace it with factory float needles at $90 a pop for a total of probably $550 when everything is said and done. The alternative they said was bring a pair of sparkplugs with you and sell the bike when I get back.

My question is this -- I just started noticing the blacksmoke, and I'm pretty sure it just started. How long do I have? Is this really a matter of "riding it to death" as the mechanic said? Is there any work around? Is there any way to cheap out on needles without compromising how long they are going to last? If I go on this trip, will I still have my seca for the school year?

Naturally the problem is that I'm a student - I spend money for a living and I cant afford the $600 pricetag.

Thoughts? Advice?

Thanks,

UPDATE: Check Page 2 for bike history, trying to make this as easy as possible.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

They are trying to screw you! Hardcore. Contact Chacal via PM on this site and he'll set you up for MUCH less than that. If that IS, indeed the problem, it's something you can fix in about an hour all by yourself.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Really? How so?

I'm up here in Canada so could it be that the prices are quite different?

I'm intrigued by being able to do it myself - and in an hour - and cheaper. Tell me more!

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

I don't know if Chacal ships to Canada, but if not. If you have a friend in the US ship it to them. They then ship it to you, and have them put 'Gift' on the customs form. That way you won't have to pay duty on it. I do it all the time for my boyfriend's friends and family lol.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Running rich won't kill the motor... excessive carbon buildup may cause it to overheat... but I think you are OK.

Did the mechanic happen to try setting the mixture screws to factory first?

Either way, we can help you fix the bike. Don't bring it to him. Waste of $$, and that way you know how to fix it yourself.

The black - was it dry or wet? Dry = too much fuel as stated already.
Wet = oil leak, either rings or valves. You can figure which doing a compression test then a wet comp test.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Well, this is good - I want to do more stuff to the bike on my own and would love to get my hands dirty (so long as I have a good walk through and dont bugger things up).

@Dpawl: The mechanic said it definitely was running rich, given all the other symptoms. Easy to do a compression check?

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

One other thing: I'm going down the Oregon coast at the start of July. Thats the trip, maybe I could take it to a shop on the coast that some of you know about and recommend? Thats always a thought - ideally I'd buy the parts and have them in a week or so to install before I go though.

What would the world do without the internet eh?

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Chacal does ship to Canada I have ordered from him before and his service is second to none, give him a pm he will likely have what you need
Shaun

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

You need to verify your PROBLEM before you go and order parts. Don't go by what he told you, most mechanics are... errr... not going into that.

If it is valve seats or needles, and is constantly leaking, you would have gas in your oil and airbox... I am thinking oil leak (rings/valves) or just too rich, way too rich.

Are your plugs dry black or wet black?

Compression test is easy, disconnect TCI and pull all 4 plugs. Hook your battery to a charger, install compression tester (rent from auto place or buy for ~$25USD) it just screws into plug hole. Turn the motor over with starter until it peaks pressure.

Do this with a hot motor first to get dry numbers, then add a drop of oil into the cylinder and see if your PSI jumps up at all. If so, rings are your issue. If the oil doesn't jump the psi, AND your numbers are below spec, it could be rings OR valves.
Have you ever checked your valve clearances?

Not positive but I think a tight valve could cause your oil burning issue. The valve would never seat properly.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

The plugs were definitely a sooty dry black - I had to scrape all the soot off with a steel wool tooth brush.

Will try the test that you suggested - will be my first time doing something like this.

How does one check valve clearances?

One other piece of information that may or may not be related: often when I have run the bike and come to an idle, I will hear a brief "clunk" the revs will drop slightly and then come back up to idle. Related?

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

That clunk is not a good thing I'll tell ya that much lol.

Compression test is easy and the only thing you have to take apart is a few plugs and the TCI.

Get that done first.

Valve specs... go to the faq section there is a post something like AIRHEAD VALVE ADJUSTMENT

Basically, pop the valve cover, rotate the motor so the cam is facing away from the shim, check space with a feeler gauge, record, and if out of spec pop the shim out and check the number on it.

BigFitz did the tutorial, and it's probably the most popular one on the site!

Sounds to me like something is catching to cause that clunk, then smoothing out. Could be a LOT of things. We'll figure it out Get your comp test done and then on to the valves. Chacal can have parts to me in ~3 days, so you have some time, even in Canada

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

get a new air filter and see what happens

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Oh... something very easily overlooked, that's worth a try!

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

@Polock: Put in a new air filter at the end of last season - brand new.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Didn't think it'd be that easy lol.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Are you running an in-line fuel filter? If not, this could be as simple as some crud in a float needle causing a hung float (or two...)

Float HEIGHT could be an issue; float needles are easily replaced but the needles and seats may just need a good cleaning.

I would definitely watch the oil level for a sudden unexplained "gain" as this would indicate gas in the oil and a float issue.

A tight valve or two alone won't cause you to burn oil; however with that many miles on it, do you KNOW when the valve clearances were last checked? if not do it soon.

Once you have the valve clearances correct and do a compression test, then you'll have some idea what's going on in there. At 84K you can't rule out rings; it could be a valve stem seal; or maybe it's just running rich.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Yes fuel levels could do it - but a float valve stuck open, even a bit, won't that ALWAYS cause oil in the airbox/oil?

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

make sure the choke plungers are all the way down, not even touching the little lifter forks

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Man, Polock full of the easy-as-pie stuff today

If your enrichment plungers are tugging even a little, it will richen your mixture enough to screw with everything.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Here's a history on my bike real quick:

Within 1000 K
-- New oil filter & oil change
-- Checked transmission fluid, OKAY
-- Cleaned the plugs (see known issues)

Around 79, 600 K
-- New air filter
-- Replaced Plugs (Victoria Motorcycle Sales, Brent)
-- Removed fuel tank, adjusted the mixture, screws and synced carbs


Under Previous Ownership:

** Carbs Rebuilt with after-market parts in 2003 and then removed, disassembled and cleaned sometime in 2007 (non-professional with maybe only a few thousand KMs between). Engine rebuild sometime 2007. Intake manifolds rebuilt. Tank cleaned and resealed. **


4/9/2008
-- New Fuel Cock

04/11/2007
-- 4x, Piston Ring set ST

27/04/2007
-- Valve Grind 4CYCL
-- Adjusted Valves
-- Hone 4 Cycls
-- 3/8" Poly Hose

06/06/06
-- New tires
-- Yamaha OEM Lever

24/07/2004
-- Bolt, Engine mount


31/05/2003
-- 48-1410, 4x Carb Kit/Rebuild Complete
-- 09-119, 2" slim line fuel filter
** NOTE FORM RECEIPT: " Rebuild carbs/sync and set up, checked valves -- OKAY. Replaced plug caps and flushed bottom end, Engine was full of fuel and has saturated filter, added fresh fuel, flushed tank and deposed off old fuel and oil -- news new air filter and rear brakes." -- R.E. Cycle

06/05/2003
-- 26-213, 4x NGK Plug Caps
-- Fork Oil,
-- 5G2-13596-01-00, 2x Carburetor Joint
-- 4 Gasket, Manifold
-- 4H7-13586-02-00, 2x Carburetor Joint
-- Fork Seals
-- Fuel Line
** NOTE FROM RECEIPT: "Replaced front seals, balanced carbs" -- R.E. Cycle

NO DATE ON RECEIPT
-- 2x 51-R580425 - 17" - 27.99 each
-- 1x 51-R580325 - 15" - 26.99 each
-- 2x 51-R4047C - Straight - 7.99 each
-- 4x 51-R4050C - 35" - 8.99 each
(haven't a clue what these are)

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

How do I check this BigFitz?

I am going to check the Compression either tonight or tomorrow night when I get moment, will let you guys know the results.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Valves were last adjusted in 2007 - should I check them again?

I also had the mixture adjusted last season at the beginning.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Valves I don't remember the mileage check but I think rule of thumb is once a season?

That's one hell of a detailed previous history, wish I new 1/4 of that on my bike.

Hope that engine rebuild it 2007 isn't causing your smoke... O_O

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

The dual engine rebuilds in 4 years makes me very nervous.......

Also, it notes that the cylinders were honed in April 2007 (and a valve job), and then 7 months later, in November 2007, then the piston rings were purchased?

Do you know the previous owner, and perhaps could make some gentle enquiries as to why the engine had to be rebuilt in 2003, and then again in 2007, and then AFTER the engine was rebuilt in April, why 7 months later the piston rings were purchased and what happened after that?


It sounds to me as though something (pistons, jugs) inside the engine might have been hurt.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Heres some information that I got off the past owner -- unfortunately he wasnt the one who had it in 2003, it was the owner before him.

Heres the note I received a few months ago when I had some troubles with the idle (that were subsequently fixed with a good balance).

If that doesnt help, the past owner is quite a nice guy and I can ask him any questions you want to throw at me.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Well, that's good to have him willing to assist with his experience.

The first question I would ask is why the piston rings were purchased after the engine had been "rebuilt"? Either he didn't pay for the rings until later, or "something" happened that caused someone to determine that after the engine cylinders had been honed (which is the proper time to fit new rings), that something was amiss that made him go and purchase rings at a later date.......worn or mis-fitted rings will definitely cause exhaust smoke, but it will be bluish since it is oil that is being combusted. Of course, if the fuel mixtures were overly wealthy, then the excess of black smoke would "mask" the blue smoke. The two issues may be totally unrelated.

The previous=previous owner (2003) was obviously suffering from the work efforts of someone who didn't understand what they were doing, as in early May 2003 the intakes were replaced, carbs "balanced", etc., and then by the end of the month, they were back at the shop having carbs rebuilt, carbs balanced again, and this time the little shop of horrors actually adjusted the valves on the engine, then rebuilt the carbys, and then balanced the carbs.....the proper sequence of events.


Another question: how many engine miles/kms in-between the 2003 rebuild and the 2007 rebuild?

If the same shop performed the work in 2007 as in 2003, it may explain quite a bit: they obviously are "parts swappers" rather than "mechanics", as they tend to Guess what the cause of a problem is, try this and that, and when those efforts don't solve the problem, then they try something else! All on the customer's dime, of course............

So the last question I would ask is: what is the name of this shop? And then I would avoid it like the plague!

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

More importantly: How many MILES since the valves were checked in 2007?

According to one of the '03 receipts, an inline fuel filter was fitted (or at least it's on the bill.)

Your original post left a lot out--- knowing everything we now know (and having even more questions too) however, my initial advice still stands:

Check/adjust the valves; then run a compression test. Let's see what the results of that have to say.

 

Re: Aftermarket Needles, Black Smoke & Long Trip

Well guys, thought I'd give you an update as I kind of neglected leading up to the days prior to the trip.

I ended up getting into a discussion with the past owner of my bike, and after we discussed it I decided it would be best to take the plunge, borrow a bunch of money, get the tank resealed and to have new carb needles put in. Fixed the black smoke problem and I just returned from 2000km trip on my 82 seca - no mechanical problems at all and she worked great.

Thanks for all the help leading up to the trip and thanks for helping me make it a reality with your guidance.


Cheerio,