starter clutch issues

i have a 82 maxim 650 i recently as in yesterday replaced thebattery , starter relay and had the starter checked . i think the starter clutch is bad...i took the clutch cover off and i dont think i can get to it to replace or repair.. let me know if any of you have any insight... thanks

 

Need to know just wha tis happening. Is the starter spinning but not turning the engine? This would indicate starter clutch problems. It may require replaceing the clutch but could also be gunk in the crankcase not allowing the clutch to engage. You can run half a can of seafoam in the crankcase and with the bike n the center stand start it and run through the gears. Let the engine warm up and then change the oil and filter. This will clean out the crankcase and may free up the starter clutch. If it doesn't then the clutc will need to be replaced. Usually means removing the engine and splitting the cases.

 

Here's how a member of XJ-Planet replaced his starter clutch WITHOUT removing the engine and splitting the cases. This + SHORTCUT + is used at Yamaha Dealerships. The technician charges FLAT RATE. That means ... He does the job using the shortcut ... but, CHARGES for the work as if it was done -- The Hard Way. I have NOT done this procedure yet. I will employ this shortcut when it is time for me to do the starter clutch ... at which time, I will renew the drive clutches, too!

The member who performed this shortcut had never done the procedure before ... as well. His text appears here as a courtesy to the members of this group from XJ-Planet.

+++ Notes on replacing the starter clutch without engine removal and case splitting. +++

By: Karl Hughes -- karl.hughes@rmit.edu.au
Edited by: Rick Massey -- xj900owner@aol.com

Yes, it is possible, (to overhaul the starter clutch without case spliting)* however if you drop the rollers, springs, or spring caps in the crankcase, you going to have to do it the "right" (split the cases)* way anyway...Be prepared....The keys are some patience and go slow...

I'm doing this from memory so if I left something out or you have a
question, please let me know....

First I took off the starter assembly off and the alternator cover
and positioned it aside.

Next you must remove the stator (the big
copper thing inside the cover that spins with/the engine) there's a
bolt in the middle to remove, but the stator has to be pressed off
the shaft, you'll have to have a special tool. (Actual Yamaha Special Tool)*

I've seen them on ebay, but I modified an old harmonic balancer removal tool (the threads were the same)...If you look at the stator it has threads
cast into its housing, thread the special puller bolt into that, and
while turning the puller, the stator will slide off the shaft. (May need an application of heavy torque -- the assembly will "Give" and come off)*

**(Tapping lightly on the puller bolt will often help loosening the pressed-on stator)** -- RickCoMatic

Next, remove the three torx screws that hold the retainer
plate to the case.

Then, the oil spray tube can be removed.

Now the tricky part.

Pull the shaft out of the case (the starter clutch unit will fall down) ((come-out and down))*

Using long screw drivers separate the two half's
of the clutch mechanism.

The half closest to you will have the chain wrapped around it, and half farthest from you (The Starter Clutch)* will contain the rollers, springs, and spring caps.

Using the long screwdriver, hold the farther section up higher than closer, using another screwdriver you can manipulate, and rotate the clutch/roller
mechanism around to remove the three rollers, springs, and caps....A
telescoping magnet will help a lot.

(EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION WHEN REMOVING THE SMALL PARTS.)*

Reassemble the opposite of removal, go slow, make sure both halves of the clutch mate together properly, use a dab of grease to hold the springs, and caps together....

I will also add as a side note, as it may or may not be required to
do so, but I did have the trans clutch removed while doing this.

I also unbolted the idler gear that goes between the starter and the
starter clutch (this is done from the trans clutch side).

The idler gear will fall down an inch but can easily be manipulated with
magnets and screwdrivers.

+++++ End of text by Mr. Hughes +++++

Following added by me for your special attention.

Sacrifice a bed sheet. Cut the sheet into a LONG 2-inch "ribbons"
Use lengths of the long ribbon to STUFF into the cavity to PREVENT anything from (DROPPING) entering the engine cavity. STUFF long length of the ribbon into voids -- Tightly! When you have successfully dealt with those small parts that might "GET AWAY" ... you can easily remove ALL the safety stuffing by withdrawing the ribbon from the cavity.

If you drop anything into the cavity ... the SHORTCUT is OVER and you'll be needing to remove the engine and split cases to finish the job and retrieve those parts that fell into the engine cavity.

*Portions added / edited by Rick Massey

It's straight-forward wrenching until you replace the springs ans rollers ... then, you need your Open Heart Surgeon hat on!

Best of luck,

 

oh man this doesnt sound good... lots of work and its my first bike and ive only had it two weeks... all i can do is shake my head. thanks for the info,
Nick

 

But, you'll have that knowledge to apply later and pass on to others.

Look at it as a learning experience


In my opinion, half of charm of these bikes is the ability for the owner to do most, if not all, needed service without advanced technical or computer knowhow.

 

Lets go back to the beginning ...
How many miles on the bike?
What happened and most importantly; what did you do?

Is (was) this a case of you pushing the START Button ... hearing the starter actually turning? Or, did nothing happen? Paint the whole picture for us. It's harf enough nailing-down problems ... but, when there is a vague area in the synopsis ... it's even more difficult. So, go back to the ... You bought the bike ... part and spell it all out for us. All thge details.

 

I'm just finishing up the starter clutch repair. It was a nightmare, but the starter had begun to slip and grind so bad it had to be done. Basically, if you think of a starter clutch lying on the ground and a bike being built up around it, you won't be far off. Having done this job, I can say the shortcut method may work, but would be fiendishly difficult to pull off. Giving my propensity for dropping things, I can say in all honesty that is was probably not worth the time for me to even attempt it. The crappiest part of the whole thing is that the parts that came out looked no worse than the parts that went in, so maybe the Yamaha mechanic that told me it might be the synthetic oil causing it to slip wasn't blowing smoke(0W40 Amsoil), and don't rag on me about the weight, since the label clearly stated it was good to replace 10W40. Of course, seeing the amount of carbon build up and the worn out rings convinced me that major motor work was worth the trouble. I just fear that I'll hear the grinding once again when I get it back in! That's a job and a half in itself.

 

MacMcMacmac i agree too , if its time ta do a starter clutch its time to look about further inside...

 

Yeesh, you all have me worried about my starter clutch now! I've not had problems with it yet. Which begs the question, is it a matter of time before I will or will proper preventitive maintenance render the issue moot?

 

Keep the oil changed.
Keep battery charged.
Don't over-use the starter if the bike won't start-up right away ... find-out why it's not starting right up.

 

purchased the bike two weeks ago from a guy that hadnt ridden in a while 9months or so but started and ran periodicly. i rode it three time with no hitchs and then ran it out of gas... put fresh fuel in it and rode it home a few hours later no issues yet. Let it sit over night next day started right up , i let it warm up and dressed for the ride got on the bike and proceeded to leave the driveway as soon as i twisted the throttle it started to bog this is wear all the fun startes... next day pull carbs cleaned with gumout carb cleaner disassemble adn reassemble with no issues. bike wont start and when it does stumbles adn boggs real bad then cuts off. after a few times of this it wont even turn over ,this is when i pull the plugs , they are wet fouled and covered with carbon and unused fuel. so i go to the parts store get battery plugs oil air filter and other misc. peices go home install all parts bike fires up! but revs straight to the moon. turn it off imediatly take carbs back off clean again and remove more , replaced starter relay now the bike fires constantly but not running, charge the battery that was "new" also applied silicone to the intake manifolds. with a fresh charged battery and the newly added silcone the bike purrs like kitten and starts right up. oh and it has 13k on it.i think that is all ive done?
Nick ill post pics later. thanks for all your help guys\gals

 

went out tonight started fine on the second try, warmed up idled beutifuly revved great, got on it and hit third gear maybe 40mph it started to sputter and bog, got it back home less than a mile and it died then i couldnt restart? what the hell is the problem it has fresh fuel and new plugs its almost like its out of timing or the ignition is weird it was doing alot of popping and back firing of sorts. anythoughts thanks
Nick

 

Check the coils ... mine are starting to clip at 58-hundred - 6-Grand. I'm yanking them old stock coils the second the FedEx truck pulls-up with my new ones. I might even slip the FedEx guy an Iced Coffee to-go ... if he manages to find my house early enough for me to road-check those babies before dinner.

The High-Performance DYNA Green's are capable of Ludicrous Speed without that annoying coil break-down.

 

I reckon xjwizz if no play up no need to worry till it does.

1-i would guess it would happen gradually [as 1 or more no catch per week then gradually increases].

2-motor probable needs over 30-40k.

3-and 2 depends on how much the starter has been used [ie-long periods on da button over a long time "years"].



4-by then 3 =primary chain guide will be no good anyway..

 

Side note on my post. I had the starter chain guide crap out on me and lock up the tranny last year. Had to split the case to replace it. Examined the clutch, looked like new so I left it alone. Wonder if I should have rebuilt it at the time.

 

now it turns over and once i get it running if i shake the bike slosh the tank it cuts off.? what the hell is going on with this thing?

 

Sounds like an intermittent wire contact or relay problem. Pull the tank, get an auxillary tank in place, fire it up and start tapping various components under the tank (although you may not wish to limit the search to just that area, the idea is to expose as much of the bike as possible yet still have it function).

 

That's like going to Paris without visiting the Louve ... or, the Eiffel Tower.

When you crack the cases ... anything suspect that requires case splitting should get done ... just to not have to dive back in there and do it all over again.

 

stillno luck with darn thing... (anybody want a realy clean parts bike?)

 

Call me on the telephone and we'll put our heads together on the thing.

Rick Massey

(978) 663-5080 H

Anytime before the end of Dave Letterman!

 

Yay! What a team player you are Rick! I would advise, however, that you not post your personal info on the forum, harvesters can pull it and start spamming or calling you! Best to use the PM, it'll save you some grief. Best of luck to you guys, I'm sure you'll lick it in no time!

 

thanks for the insight rick, unfortunitly i cannot get the bike to turn over due to the starter clutch going bad i talked to local service guys and they are wanting 600-1000 $ to pull the motor and replace these nine little peices. So as of tomorrow i will be the proud new owner of two '82 yamy max 650's thats right im picking another one up tomorrow for free... with 6k on the ticker and is in better shape than mine with the small exception of the front forks being bent due to a inexperienced rider rear endinga truck? so im taking my front end and placing on this other bike in hopes that it doesnt need a starter clutch... thanks for all your help and ill post when i find all the things wrong with the other bike. if anyone needs parts ive got some for sale also have factory accessories. ill post pics this week send me a pm if you need something paticular. thanks Nick

 

Good call ... I wouldn't pay someone 6-or-7 bills to do a starter clutch; either. I'd just take a few hours a day and do it myself. Or, do what you did ... and make two bikes into ONE FINE looker!!!

 

in case you didnt see my other post , i swapped motors. Its all done now and was relatively easytook me a day to get both of them out and the new one running. test road last night and everything is great. thanks for all of you help and suggestions.

 

I believe I might have to replace item #1 in this pic
http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/501_1654/ ... rent=28960

Is it possible to get at it without splitting the cases ???
Can someone point me to where the steps are. Thanks.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

There IS a short-cut method. You won't have to pull the engine and do a whole tear-down and split the cases. You will have to pull the clutch plus the whole alternator and windings, though ... to get in there.

The following text is from a Member of my Yahoo Group that did it and provided this write-up:

Here's his notes:

First I took off the starter assembly off and the alternator cover
and positioned it aside...Next you must remove the stator (the big
copper thing inside the cover that spins w/the engine) there's a
bolt in the middle to remove, but the stator has to be pressed off
the shaft, you'll have to have a special tool...I've seen them on
ebay, but I modified an old harmonic balancer removal tool (the
threads were the same)...If you look at the stator it has threads
cast into its housing, thread the special puller bolt into that, and
while turning the puller, the stator will slide off the
shaft....Next, remove the three TORX screws that hold the retainer
plate to the case....Then, the oil spray tube can be removed...Now
the tricky part, pull the shaft out of the case (the starter clutch
unit will fall down) using long screw drivers separate the two half's
of the clutch mechanism....The half closest to you will have the
chain wrapped around it, and half farthest from you will contain the
rollers, springs, and spring caps....Using the long screwdriver,
hold the farther section up higher than closer, using another
screwdriver you can manipulate, and rotate the clutch/roller
mechanism around to remove the three rollers, springs, and caps....A
telescoping magnet will help a lot...Reassemble the opposite of
removal, go slow, make sure both halves of the clutch mate together
properly, use a dab of grease to hold the springs, and caps
together....

I will also add as a side note, as it may or may not be required to
do so, but I did have the trans clutch removed while doing this, and
I also unbolted the idler gear that goes between the starter and the
starter clutch(this is done from the trans clutch side)....The idler
gear will fall down an inch but can easily be manipulated with
magnets and screwdrivers...

+++++++

The only thing about doing the job ... using this shortcut ... is this:

If you allow anything to drop into the engine ... the "ShortCut" is OVER!
When I do any job that places small parts at risk from being dropped into any kind of void ... I cut a Loooong strip of bed sheet and stuff the ribbon of sheet down into the void. Eventually, the ribbon of sheet will "Fill" the void and act as a barrier (safety-net) for preventing "things" that might fall, slip or get nudged loose and succumb to gravity!

When the safety net is no longer needed ... you just tug on the end of the ribbon and bring it back out of there.

 

OK this is the part I need to get out. Now can I get it off without the rest of the starter clutch assembly comming out. As in - will the idler come out the clutch side or do I need to remove the rest of the starter clutch and get it that way. I would have saved myself like a 100 hours labor if it comes out the clutch side.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

Here's the best pics that I can find Srinath.
From my recollection you're only getting the gear out by splitting the case.

 

OK I should rephrase that. I believe the gear the starter engages against is the one with missing teeth. Is that somehting we have to get the cases apart to get at. TIA.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

That's the gear circled in red in the picture I posted for you.
Remember your looking at it from the bottom side in the top casing. The next gear in the picture ( just below the idler and has some red stuff on it ) is the starter clutch gear.
As I said before, from my recollection you're only getting the gear out by splitting the case.

 

Yea Thanks guys. I have a new question though.
Are we supposed to be able to spin the starter idle gear with your finger. Also when you turn the motor is it supposed to turn. I am not able to spin it, and its not turning with the motor. Is either of that bad.
Thanks.
Srinath.

 

I don't know about being able to spin the idle gear with your finger, but you should be able to spin it, or rotate it.

The idler ( circled in red from previous picture ) meshes with the next gear, which is also an idler, on the starter clutch housing.

Both these gears should move without the crankshaft moving. Also the crankshaft could move without the idlers moving.

It's the starter clutch that will link everything together, only when you can spin the clutch up to speed, via the starter motor.

 

HOLY FREAKIN CRAP!!! I wrote that replacement technique back in March!!!!

See: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=480.html

I can't believe its been passed around the eWeb!!! I feel really honored right now!!!!

Where else has it been posted? I'm curious to see if others were successful...Thanks...

 

Good karma Bike-man-man, what goes around comes around. One of the great joys in life is seeing the fruit of your labor.

 

Yea same thing happened to me ... in 1994 I wrote about a nighthawk cam chain tensioner repair/replacement, and in 1998 I found much of that original thing floating around. Thanks bike-man.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

Bike-man-man and anyone else -
I pulled off the clutch side cover, the clutch and the gear behind it and couldn't get to the starter idler gear that is the problem in my seca 2. Can anyone tell me how to get the idler gear out. I dont have a starter clutch problem. The idler has missing/broken teeth evidently.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

Bad news Srinath, I'd pull the motor, those teeth have to have gone somewhere. Time to split the case and ensure that nothing else has ingested metal teeth.

 

Well as per the guy I bought from, he has started it with the starter as well and bump starting if its just whirring.
I think metal teeth are sorta well in there and in the pan probably by now. I will pull the pan of course. He also sai they didn't look like they were bad enough to cause a problem.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

To get the idler out, you have to pull the engine/split case....It won't fit out of the access hole...

 

What if the idler is the problem and I make sure of that and I cut the top part right where you can stick your finger in and touch the thing .... cut the case right there and get it out. Then put it back in that way and weld up the case shut. Yea I would rather not spend like 20 hours opening up the thing from the bottom when the thing is on the top. I can perform heart surgery though a key hole but not open and do it the right way he he.
Yea cut the frame and welded back a quick access frame on a vulcan 750 many years ago ... worked great, we ended up opening it several more times, when the gear shifter failed and when the crank trigger failed. So I would rather save my self the hassle for now.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

I love the idea of cuting the frame and creating a quick access frame member. It'd be really cool if you did that and posted the pictures and a write up of lessons learned. Which side do you think you could get away with doing that on? How far down the front of the frame would you cut? How far back? Questions, questions, I'm eager now!

 

It was on a vulcan 750. Alternator had died, and needed the motor out to get that left case off. Its got a removable right side frame leg, but that didn't help me ... So I decided that the left frame needed to be sliced open.
So I picked a nice and bright morning in CA ensuring I'll have the whole day to saw and saw and saw with my little sawzall ... and ... and ... 20 mins its done. BTW That included a run to walmart to get steel cutting blades for my jig saw ... the rear section needed a jig saw instead of a sawzall ... Oh yea ... the frame was all of a 32nd of an inch thick. I have been conked on the head by thugs with pipe that was made of better steel than that one. I dont have pics ... cos it was over before we could click :lol: .
I then lay the damn thing over and used a 1 1/8th hole saw to remove the welded in sleeves for motor mounts. Then I used a 1 inch hex rod, drilled it on the corners and knocked that in, welded the frame to it, ran the motor mount bolts through that and on the bottom sliced that rod into a lap joint and welded it to the 2 ends. I had to cut an inch gap and make it bolt on.
I can see now ... my idler gear is going to come right off the top of the case. My dremel tool is itching ... 5 mins and its done I think. The hard part will be to make sure its the problem and not the starter clutch.
I'll keep y'all posted.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

Is there any way (other than the way posted) to remove the generator from the shaft so that I can get at the starter clutch??

 

Other than the big bolt screwed into the middle of the generator stator, no. Sorry, this is one where your better off just doing it the right way. I wouldn't want to dork up my alternator, they are just too expensive to futz.

 

An interesting point ...

"Starter Clutch Replacement Shortcut"

First appeared on the Internet: May 19th, 2005 ... '05 ~~ Five

In an Yahoo Group Forum which no longer exists.

The main reason I'd like to bring this to your attention is because:

I wrote it!

And, at least three people I know, who read it ... did it! Back then.

 

What would you guys suggest using to get the three Torx screws out. They are in there really friggen tight. Firstly, are they supposed to be that tight?? Cause I can't get them out with a hand drive, you think that I might have to use air power??

 

You need the Torx Socket, a 6-Inch long, 1/2 Inch extension and a Hand Held Impact Tool.

They will loosen upon Impact.
They are installed with Thread Locker on the fittings and you need to put Thread Locker on them when they are reinstalled and torqued back down.

I sometimes use the Torx Socket, a 6-Inch Extention and a 1/2 Inch Drive Pry Bar ... which I give a firm whack too with a Hammer Handle.

 

I have gotten as far as getting the stator and mag off, but when it comes to the three torx screws, they won't budge. tried heat, screw extractors, etc...would it be feasable to simply drill them out and then re-tap the holes to allow for new screws?? Please let me know, I am at the end of my chain and fresh out of ideas....I need to get it working. I just don't want to completly screw it up. PLEASE HELP

[align=left]

 

No.
Those screws will successfully be extracted by using an Impact tool to loosen them.

If you make a mistake of any kind drilling them out, you'll have difficulty you cannot imagine ... reassembling the engine.

(Email Karl and have him tell you how he got them out. You should invest in a Hand Held Impact Tool, now that you're this far into the job.)

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... act+driver

You need one of those and a Torx Drive Socket to fit the Tool!

 

The only thing I can add to the starter clutch issue is...do it right or spend twice as much time sorting out the problems from not doing it right.

Getting the torx screws out can be a pain but there is one correct way only - with a torx bit and an impact driver.

Other suggestions may work but also may cause significant problems in the process. Nothing worse that getting into the starter clutch, fixing it and then have problems with re-assembly after you have completed the one job on the XJ which is rated in degrees of difficulty at 11 on a scale of 10.

KH