Alrernator/ brushes problem road trip mishap HELP!!!

I was on the way to Ruidoso, NM when i pulled off the road to check if i was about to hit my turn. Turned the bike off, checked map, hit the start button and all i got was very fast clicks coming from the starter. Would this be brushes issue or something else? Also I don't know if this would do anything but it was very hot today and i was running about 80mph for about 2 hours. Could the heat run the battery down faster? sounds stupid but I don't know
the bike is a 81 550 seca.
thanks in advance
josh w

 

Did you check the water level in the battery? If low add distilled/de-ionized water to correct level and charge battery.

 

battery level was fine when i left but i haven't checked it since i got back
ill do that

 

Push Start it.
Have anybody with a Meter test the Voltage.
Look for 14.2 Volts at 1,850 rpm's and above.
No.
Ck Brushes
OK > Test Start Switch and Solenoid.

Below 14.2 > NG! You'll roll to a stop Dead.

 

Heat can and Does cook the Alternator Rotor and then the Stator. I've seen some where the wire insulation has sprayed out like paint from the heat, which also causesetal fatigue in the widings , breaking wires internally.
A piss poor design on these bikes. Looong superceded.
In fairness tho It does 'usually' happen at higher mileages. But Do check the easier to source/replace other charging system parts first, You may be lucky.

 

ok quick update... I got home, a buddy picked me and the bike up. When I was stuck I tried to charge it w/ a quick charger and got about 3 miles before it died. It turned over fine but once I got on the road the spark plugs just didnt have enough juice.

i checked the battery level. its good.

Rick,
Because it died while riding Im going to assume it was less than 14.2V (I was going about 55mph when it died) . Do you have a link on how to check the stator/ alternator/ brushes? Well the whole charging system really.

[quote="Danilo"Heat can and Does cook the Alternator Rotor and then the Stator. I've seen some where the wire insulation has sprayed out like paint from the heat, which also causesetal fatigue in the widings , breaking wires internally.
A piss poor design on these bikes. Looong superceded.
In fairness tho It does 'usually' happen at higher mileages. But Do check the easier to source/replace other charging system parts first, You may be lucky.[/quote]

My bike has about 28-30k miles on it, would you consider this "high mileage" on this bike. It was sitting for about 10 years before I picked it up.

thanks for the help everyone
josh

 

Did you check the alternator brushes yet? At that mileage they may simply have worn all the way out.

The book says they need to be replaced at 10K. When I checked my '81 at 18K they were still about "half life." That may be the whole problem.

**WAIT A MINUTE** 550 Seca? What did the volt meter have to say during all this?

 

DING DING DING DING, give the man a cigar! Ask me why I'm playing with a 550 cluster in hopes of adding that voltmeter to my 650.

 

when I first got my '81 i assumed the voltmeter was just a "cartoon" with no real practical application and certainly not to be trusted.

Then I discovered that it's DIRECTLY wired into the battery/charging circuit and they're now my new best little security blankets. I checked their honesty with a DVM and they're right on.

 

Ok UPDATE
thanks for all the help guys
Ahhh the volt meter. its been shot for a while and Im not brave enough to tear it apart. It bounces back and for until the charging system settles and it off when it does settle. Its normally off by about 2-3V. So with that out, I charged the bike last night and great voltage (i think it was 12.6) I then started the bike, let it warm up and let sit at 3,000 rpm over the course of about a minute it climbed up to 13.7V. Not good enough. So I dropped it down to 2k rpm ( this is what the book recommended) and got a reading of 12.8 slowly climbing to 13.4V. So Im going to pull the alternator out tomorrow, However, I do not have a flywheel puller and the nearest Orileys wants a 200 dollar deposit for 4 hours of use, they wouldnt take my drivers license as insurance ( I asked).
So does anyone know of a way to get the alternator out by using a slightly more than basic tool set?
Thanks again for all the help
Josh W

 

Unless you've already done so, I would first start with:

- test the battery to see if it will actually hold a charge. 10 years is way past the life of a battery, even if it hasn't been in use. Your alternator may be performing just fine, the water levels in the battery may be spot-on, but if the battery won't hold the incoming charge, you'll experience some of the results you've described.

Most auto parts stores can check the ability of your battery to hold a charge, which is the critical factor.


- check the alternator stator and rotor condition:

Checking alternator stators: the resistance across each pair (w1 to w2, w1 to w3, and w2 to w3) of the three white wires (white1, white2, and white3) at the connector should be as follows:

0.50 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ550 models.

0.46 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ650, all XJ700, all XJ750, and XJ900RK models.

0.37 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ1100 models.



Checking alternator rotors: the resistance across the two lead wires (usually brown and green) at the connector should be as follows. Note that worn or damaged alternator brushes can affect these readings, as can "dirty" copper commutator strips on the rotor face (where the brushes contact the rotor):

4.5 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ550 models.

4.0 ohms +/- 10% for all XJ650, all XJ700, all XJ750, XJ900RK, and XJ1100 models.



- You should inspect and clean off any corrosion on the terminals inside the plastic connectors on the wires that come from the alternator (one has three white wires....that's for the stator, and the other has a greena nd a brown wire.....that's for the rotor). Corrosion in these terminals will reduce the amount of voltage delivered to the battery, even if the alternator is performing adequately.

Do the same for the battery post terminals, both at the battery and at the solenoid (for the positive cable).


- Of course, check the condition of the rotor brushes:

NOTE: Alternator brushes should be replaced whenever they are less than 11mm in overall length......the factory maintenance interval indicates that you should expect to replace these brushes every 8-10,000 miles. Factory brushes have "wear marks" (scribed lines) on the brush to indicate their wear limit; these aftermarket brushes also have the scribed wear line. Overall length of these brushes are 17.10mm, with 9mm of length from the wear bars to the contact end of the brushes.


- Finally, check the condition of the main fuse retaining clips for damage or corrosion. You should consider upgrading to a more modern style fusebox for beter reliability and electrical system performance.

 

Josh; Read what chacal posted.

You don't have to "pull the alternator" unless you find a problem that requires it. The brushes are located in the cover, and easily replaced.
The rest of the alternator components can be tested right where they are.
The stator slides right out (be careful on reinstallation to line up the notches for the bolts) and the rotor would only need to be pulled (special tool) if it is the problem. It can be cleaned right where it is.

Most likely you simply need to pull the cover; replace the brushes; and clean out 20+ years' worth of crud. Replace the cover gasket too and you will probably be good to go.

 

Don't start replacing the Turbines inside the Dam until you've checked the water level in the Lake.

Battery? Test AMPs / Not Volts
Fuse Panel?
Check Plug-in Connector to Voltage Regulator for signs of melting.
(If the connector overheated ... did the RED Wire get disengaged?)

Brushes. Ck Length. 10mm (min)
Rotor. Resistance.

 

Well said sir!

 

I like that Ill have to use it sometime. Well all tests according to the manual according to the book lead me to the alternator. Its pretty general it said alternator or alternator components. So I tried to take the cover off and the 27 year old Allen bolts wont come loose. I'm on hold until I can pick up an Impact Driver from harbor freight.

Ill probably be picking up a new fuse box from chacal soon so ill just add what i need to the order.

Ill keep you posted on what I find
Thanks again everyone for your help
Josh W

 

I would completely advise against the use of an impact driver on ANY part of this motorcycle.

Spend 50 bucks on a case of penetrating oil, soaking in the morning and night for a week... Try the HOT COLD method...

Anything you try, will be easier that fixing a snapped bolt...

 

Well, I haven't bought one yet. But 50 bones? Really?
These alternator cover Allen heads are hard to get a hold of with any thing but a Allen bit.
With that out there, is there ANYTHING else that can get these bolts loose for cheap. I'm not rich, that's why I have this motorcycle. However the amount of money I have put into it would suggest otherwise.
With that said

 

We're talking "Hand-held" Impact Driver, here.
Not, a 200 psi pneumatic 1/2-inch air-tool.

I have the SEARS Brand Hand-held.
There are some stubborn fasteners that NEED the Impact.
I'm always using mine for Carb Screws and Drain Screws.
I even have one Screwdriver Blade Bit that is grinded (some) to fit the Fuel Bowl Drain Screw opening.

 

Ok... my mistake. Jumped to conclusions there.

I just instantly pictured you snapping off bolts left and right with an impact...

The intentions were good, just got a little excited.

 

the only penetrating oil you will ever need, you can throw the other ones away: http://www.kanolabs.com/google/ 2 cans for $12 shipped free.

 

Lol yes , Like i said im not rich so dropping 50-150 on a power impact driver wouldn't happen and yes it would break most of the bolts if not all the bolts on these bikes
thanks guys

 

HAND impact driver in use:



I also recommend picking up a set (or at least a 5mm) T-handle allen wrench as well as a 1/4 drive or 3/8 drive 5mm hex bit; it makes working on these bikes a lot easier than trying to struggle with "keys." Plus I'm so anal I use a torque wrench on my case screws.

 

Man, ... THAT Impact Tool packs a wallop.

Look at how it cracked the concrete with just tap!

 

Its funny i have a crack just like that under my bike right now in the garage. Well heres the update. I picked up a Craftsman 1/2" drive Impact driver. I was able to get the allen bolts off and I think (90% positive) I have found the problem. One of the brushes is fine with PLENTY of room away from the scribe line. However the other brush ( the one on the bottom side) is about 3mm short of the scribe line. I will have to look at it tomorrow in detail.
Can the brushes possibaly slide within the holders. The thing that gets me is one brush (top side) is great and one brush (bottom side) is way past the scribe line.
Any thoughts?
thanks
josh

 

Oh I forgot.... I still am having troubles getting the bottom two front sprocket cover Allen bolts off. Right now they are absorbing Seafoam penetrating oil. So this is the last ditch effort before i have to drill them out.

 

KROIL. Everything else is a waste of time. http://www.kanolabs.com/google/

You might try to get underneath the edge of the cover at the bolt locations and see if you can get some penetrant into the "seam" between the cover and the engine. I can't believe those are stuck, they're usually bathed in enough chain lube to exclude any corrosion.

 

I have used this stuff before, and it does work great. But do you have stock in this stuff Bigfitz? I have been doing a lot of reading on the forums researching and I have come across many of your KROIL plugs! Sorry, just like to give a guy a hard time.

As for stuck bolts, check out my post on how I got my carb boot hex heads unstuck. It my be an intermediate attempt while you wait for KROIL to show up?

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=2 ... +cold.html

 

The Brushes normally wear unevenly because the outside Brush "Does more work".
Examine the face of the Alternator Rotor. If the Outside Ring on where the Brushes make contact shows signs of the Alternator being OVERWORKED ... ( A darker "Burn" circle on the face of the Rotor ) ... find-out why the Alternator is working so hard.

>> Usually, the problem is a Battery that is beyond it's service life and does not get charged sufficiently to keep the Alternator from being overworked. <<

Clean the darkened circles on the Alternator Rotor by rubbing-away the
scorched surface where the Brush arced on the Rotor with a Typewriter Eraser Pencil.
http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalo ... ta_id=1675

The Eraser Pencil will "Shine-up" the Rotor face without leaving behind any swirls or fine scratches which will cause the Brushes to "Sparkle and Arc" further complicating the Alternator Overloading situation.

 

Re: Kroil. I never heard of it until Alkasmeltzer recommended it.

Why I highly recommend it:

For a period of nearly nine months after I got my '81 XJ on the road, I had been trying to remove the rusted in place fork caps so I could rebuild the forks.
I had "tapped" (pounded) them down far enough to pry out the clips but they would NOT come back up.
I sprayed every concoction known to me (except Kroil) in there, and kept riding the bike, hoping the caps would free up. They didn't.
Someone suggested Kroil. Desperate, I tried it. One of the caps popped up while I was still applying the Kroil; the other took about 10 minutes.
NINE MONTHS WORTH OF SOAKING WITH EVERY OTHER PENETRANT DIDN'T WORK. Ten minutes in Kroil and they were free. Worked just as miraculously on my other bike too, and it's saved my bacon a dozen times since. Quite frankly just amazing stuff; it's not a preference it simply works when NOTHING else does.

 

I believe it. I just thought it was interesting, as I had probably read at least 5 or 6 of those in old/archived posts, and then I saw it again.

Just a friendly ball busting.

It is a legit product.

 

Ok Ive got some Kroil on the way.

All of you will get a kick out of this.....
I called my local motorcycle repair shop and asked to order of brushes for the bike (81 550RH) So he looks around or a bit and tells me that he might be able to get them and they are $60.48 EACH!!! 120 bucks wow they have out done them selves. So I immediately thought CHACAL. The parts guy told me they are sold seperatly not in pairs.
Its amazing sometime isnt it?

Oh.. speaking about that shop. I remember why the hex bolts on the front sprocket cover wont budge. The chain had come loose and jammed itself into the front sprocket and had to be cut out. This was before i knew what i was doing and before i found this site so I took it to this shop. I guess when they put the cover back on they used an impact gun to do the work. Should I take it back to them and tell them to fix it? LOL

CHACAL, You have a PM

So I guess I am at a stand still untill I get the Kroil and Brushes in.
Heres a Q, How do you clean 28 years of crud without damaging the alternator components?

Thanks again everyone
Josh W

wohooooo!!! 100 hard earned and sometimes expensive posts

 

josh, ...

Did they damage the cover?

Before I pop for 60-Bucks for only one Brush, ... I'm buyin' some Brushes that measure close to what I need and, ... "Doin'-a-Mcguiver"

Yammie wants almost $4.50 each for Headset Ball Bearings.
Each.
That's a hundred and seventy bucks for Plastic Bags.

I went to a Ball Bearing Supply Depot.
They have Ball Bearings in large bins.
I said to the guy, ...

"I need some some Standard, quarter-inch, Ball Bearings."
He says, ...
"How many?"
Figuring I'd lose one or two, ... I said:
"Forty!"
He looks-up from the magazine he's reading, looks at me and asks:
"40 Thousand?"
"No. Just forty."

He turns around and grabs a little brown bag, then reaches into the bin and grabs a handful of bearings, letting them roll out of his hand into the bag. Then, he hands me the bag and says:

"Give me 5-bucks. Don't worry. There's at least 40 in there!"

 

LOL I hear ya on the local shops thing. The problem is that around here people think their crap is made of gold and you cant polish a turd.....so.....
the next best thing is the internet for me. However, there is one place here called Cycle Parts that I get most of my used motorbike parts from. Just a one acre yard of motorcycle heaven ( or hell im not sure which) The guy who runs the place...well, lets just say he has a very colorful view of the world he lives in.

Hey, rick, since I got ya here. How do you clean off the alternator components? What cleaner what do I pull off what do I not, ect, ect...
Thanks a million or should I say 40 thousand? ha ha

 

As you've probably discovered by now, brushes for the 550s run around $20 a set from you-know-who.

I would recommend any good, dry solvent; either actual contact cleaner or brake cleaner, and an old tooth brush.

 

LOL, Yes I have them on the way from "you-know-who".
Thanks for the cleaning tip, Didn't think tat dish soap and a brass brush was a good idea. Kidding of course
thanks again
josh w

 

You can get Electronic Parts Cleaner at Radio Shack

For the Contact Rings on the Rotor:
1000 Finishing Paper to Restore the Surface
1500 To Remove the swirls and scratches of the 1000
Rubbing Compound to Restore the Surface
Linen soaked in Alcohol to Clean-off

 

Thanks Rick. My parts were shipped out today from xj parts. So I'm about five to seven days away from tearing into this.

Say, How long does Kroil take before they confirm or charge your card for your order?

 

Kanolabs' charge hit my card at the same time the stuff hit my doorstep, all of about 2-3 days. They didn't send a confirmation or anything, it just showed up.

 

Sorry I just saw that...No they didnt damage the cover. I said impact gun but what i meant was air gun. I think I will take it back to them and tell them to fix it if the Kroil dose not work. The worst they can say is no. What do you think? Of course they could work on getting the bolts out and break something else....

 

The Dealer can't break-off a fitting and leave it for you to worry about.
They broke it.
They should know better.
They're just glad you aren't kicking-up a fuss.

Tell them you'd like them to remove the fragment THEY caused.
Be sure that you refer to the Original Work Order.
Don't sign a NEW Work Order.
Tell them you'd be happy to have it drilled and Helicoiled.