Cafe Racer Discussion

I'm going to rant, and I started a new topic because I didn't want to direct this at anyone in particular. I guess this may just be my opinion because I've been in the 70s era bike building game a lot longer and this is my first "modern" bike, but...

I don't get why people try to make cafe's out of XJs. These bikes were made in the 80s, not the 70s. In the case of the seca, it's an 80s performance touring bike. It's heavy, it has a lot of components, and it's got beautiful lines. In the case of the maxim, it's an 80s cruiser with all the same, including the beautiful lines. Why everyone on this site insists on turning their 80s style bikes into wanna-be 70s era racing machines is beyond me.

The tank is not right for a cafe racer. The seat is not right for a cafe racer. The weight is not right for a cafe racer. The rims are not right for a cafe racer. The frames are not right for a cafe racer. The technology is not right for a cafe racer. These bikes were never made to be what everyone is trying to make them. Cafe racer bikes were made in the 70s, using 70s technology, 70s frames, and they looked and felt cool because they were NEVER TRYING TO BE SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT.

I had to say it. I doubt anyone agrees with me and you can all call me an asshole if you want... but every time I click on the modifications sub-forum, I'm blasted with a bunch of people who are taking beautiful XJs and bastardizing them, turning them into rip-offs and bad attempts at something they were never meant to be.

Leave your damn XJs as damn XJs, because that is what they are. I'm all for customization... but it isn't custom if everyone is chopping up bikes going for the same look that no one can achieve.

 

+1. I stay away from the "XJ Modifications" forum, it tends to make my tummy hurt.

I don't mind a bit of modernization and "restification" but I prefer to retain the original look and feel.

 

My bike is stock and insured as a "collector" - that is, it has to stay that way. I prefer them that way.

I've got to admit, tho - I've been impressed with some of the cafe mods people have done. They may not be true to whatever '70s cafe racer ideal Pipe speaks of, but some of them look great, and I've said as much on some of the mod forums.

And, I'm sure their owners don't give two squirts what I think, anyhow!

 

My bike is mine and I will do what I want with it. I love XJs and I love cutting them up. If we all had factory correct bikes we would have no diversity, and this section of the forum would be nonexistent. If you like showroom stock bikes I can respect that, however I also think that the rectangular headlights and lunchbox sized gauge clusters on these bikes leave something to be desired. But that is irrelevant. I can appreciate the work that goes into any well built bike whether it suits my tastes or not, and I can appreciate the common interest that we all have in XJs. I'm building my bike to suit me and only me, and I hope you're doing the same. Your bike is whatever you make it. To each his own. It keeps things interesting.

 

Well said Russell. And as I said, I'm all for customization. I just think that there is a distorted image of a "cafe racer" on this forum and probably many others... and when everyone wants one and chops their bike, it not only ruins what XJs were supposed to be, but it never becomes what it's trying to be, so it's just in the middle, looking trashy with poor conceptualization and poor execution.

I just made this so hopefully people will realize that if they want a cafe, they can buy the right bike for it. I don't understand why you would buy an XJ if you wanted a cafe racer. Some guys on here do it really well, and I commend them for their craftsmanship and perfection... but I just imagine what they could have done with a bike that was built to be made that way.

These are 80s performance tourers and sport tourers. It just seems like half of the forum needs to be made aware of that before they go hacking into a perfectly good bike to try to make something that doesn't make any sense.

 

I'd like to chime in with my comment, that the seca 750 is not a great bike in stock form. The headlights are ugly, the gauge cluster is ugly, the seat setup is a little wonky, the turn signals are enormous, and the whole thing has some oddly proprietary systems (such as the silly front mount MC)

If you want to rant, you need to take it further, and exclude all bikes made other than pre 1970 british bikes.

The seca tank looks great as a cafe tank. Turning a seca 750 into a lighter, cleaner little sportbike is perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with removing weight (I can see myself shaving a good 50 pounds or more off of this bike) dropping the riding position (which is ghastly. bolt upright = heinous freeway buffeting) and lowering the bike.

I've seen a well made cafe bike from a virago 250. Definitely not "cafe" material, but it worked.

I bought my XJ with the intent of turning it into a cafe racer because I got the bike CHEAP. a 70's cb750 would have cost me three times as much.

 

Just a small point. the SIXTIES was the decade of the cafe racer. The 70's brought us Japanese multi cylinder bikes and underbraked two strokes.
(And the beginning of the end of British bikes).

I personally have kept my bike as standard but realise that everyone has different tastes.

It seems slightly strang to me though, that in the 80s Yamaha (And the other big three) bombarded the US market with "Cruiser" models, when what you really wanted was the models that were imported into Europe!

 

I was going to say the exact same thing. By the 70's the Japs were making mass produced "Superbikes" and the Cafe Racer was redundant.

Anyway, Cafe Racers are the new fashion at the moment (like OCC was 5 years ago) - and apparently you can make a Cafe Racer out of any bike.

Just like you can make a Streetfighter out of any bike :roll:

 

I was going to say the exact same thing. By the 70's the Japs were making mass produced "Superbikes" and the Cafe Racer was redundant.

Anyway, Cafe Racers are the new fashion at the moment (like OCC was 5 years ago) - and apparently you can make a Cafe Racer out of any bike.

Just like you can make a Streetfighter out of any bike :roll:

 

With enough cutting and welding, any bike can become a cafe.

personally, the shaft driven 4 cylinder 750 isn't my ideal cafe base, but I do like the reliability offered by the setup, and its ability to remain a commuter bike for me on the highway. A lot of "true" cafe bikes struggle to do the ton, and have a hard time on the freeway.

My goal is a 400lb dry cafe bike.

 

The 750 Seca tank is a good one, Poprider .....Xulf13 (i think) did a nice one, but overall I prefer them stock with functional mod's where appropriate if need be. 'N as for bobbers by the bin load.....yer makes "my tummy hurt".

 

Who cares! Do you really sit around and worry about it. If you haven't realized yet, the motorcycle world is FULL of idiots with bad taste and no eye for design (one member here in particular comes to mind ;() Why sit around and complain and b!itch about it when you should use that energy to make your bike how you like it and know in your mind your bike looks better than their monstrosity!!!

 

Who cares! Do you really sit around and worry about it? If you haven't realized yet, the motorcycle world is FULL of idiots with bad taste and no eye for design (one member here in particular comes to mind ;() Why sit around and complain and b!itch about it when you should use that energy to make your bike how you like it and know in your mind your bike looks better than their monstrosity!!!

 

The XJ is a UJM. This puts it in the same category with a bazillion of other bikes that all pretty much look alike. I know _we_ can tell one XJ from another from a quarter mile away, but the rest of the folks out there can't... So we spice the XJ up a bit. Who cares if it looks like something it's not?

Cafe bikes have a very unique, catchy look. The humped one-up seat, the oft-ugly fairing, clubman-type bars, rear sets... The thing is, Cafe has become just that -- a look. Nobody builds them to win races....

If you want to mod your bike, by all means, do it. If you're tired of choices of Red, Black or Purple, maybe a Manx or a Thruxton look is the ticket

 

If you prefer this look



over this:


Or this look


over this one:


Or even this one


over this



Then more power to you!.

In my case I got a very, very, very cheap priced bike, I thought it was hideous from the beginning. So hideous in fact that I was not going to buy it until it was basically given to me for free. It had rust over the forks and anything that was suposed to be chromed. I had many parts to replace and I replaced them with parts i liked.

Yeah my tank is not boxy enough at the back end, there are still things I wish were different about my bike to make it look more copasetic. But I was going for a smoother look while removing some weight.

Yeah it's no 60's bike, or 70's bike for that matter.

 

why???????? if you don't like modded bikes stay out of the modification forum.
Ride Free and all of that hypocrisy

 

I'm a biker not a bloody historian........ I build what feels right to me using what I have available. I dont care what you think. I don't build for you, I build for ME

 

Odd, the whole reason I bought my Seca was the fact that it melded "Cafe" inspired styling, with decent brakes, shaft drive, and a very reliable engine. I had no idea Secas aren't at all suitable for "Cafe Racers". Everything I saw and read in the 70s told me that "Cafe Racing" was something you did with a "Cafe Racer", not the other way around. You could "Cafe Race" with a full dressed Gold Wing, if you were so inclined, but you wouldn't do very well. You would still be racing from cafe to cafe. You would just be losing.





All that said, what is the big deal with people personalizing their bikes? I personally think the Seca 750 is but ugly with the stacked, rectangular headlights, and I am no fan of cruiser style bikes, either. To me, form should follow function, and not the other way around. But I can still appreciate a full on resto of a Maxim, and I also can appreciate a bobber or a cafe (styled) bike. To me, it is all about love of mechanical art, and the thrill of being on two wheels. There is far too much division in this world already, must we pick fights with each other's idea of a beautiful motorcycle. As long as no one is trying to modify my bike, I have no issues with him modifying his the way he likes. Just as I expect him to respect my right to modify my own in the way I see fit.


Just ride.

 

Main reason why I bought my XJ, was because it cost about half what same condition CB's and about fifth of those old british bikes would have cost...
To my eyes 550 is very doable for cafe style and yes style is what attracts me most What I've read, performance and realibility is at decent level too when compared to those older bikes :? Factory look is just bit boring to me and can't afford those "better" starting point for cafe racer bikes, so theres my excuses

 

i'am glad you got that off your chest
but couldn't the same be said for guys that put bags and a trunk on a XJ and go touring on it or puts struts on one, paints it flat black and rakes the frame
or that guy that rides his Ducati 15 miles on the 4 lane to work
or those guys with camaro's on trailers with slicks, numbers on the doors and a 427 with headers
why on earth would someone go fishing in a canoe
because they can, thats why

 

Why would anyone need an excuse to build a bike the way you want it.
"Cafe racer" might not be the best term to classify this style of mods but I can't see a better one. If you think about what a cafe racer is, it is a raod bike that has been stripped down of non essentials and used to time trial race from point A to point B, just because it happened in the 60's and 70's in the UK doen't mean you can't do the same to any bike. Also to categorize a trend into a singal decade is a bit naive.

I have to say your idea of what can and can't be a cafe racer is quite close minded.

I would also venture a guess that my little project spawned this topic. All i have to say is that sucks to be you if it pisses you off. I'm sure when i sell my bike (to get a bubble head BMW) the new owner will enjoy it as is or laugh at all the dumb mods i did, either way i enjoyed doing it and riding it.


I toatly agree with cooter on this

 

LOL

This thread reminds me of the "Definition of a Streetfighter...." threads that appear every 6 months or so on fighter sites. They go for about 12 pages with everyone arguing back and forth until everyone wishes they never posted anything in the first place :lol:

 

A "Cafe' Racer" is more about the MAN than it is the BIKE.
The MAN needed a Bike that would start, run great and not lose time because of too much weight.

But, the term is more about the Rider and his riding prowess than about the lean, "Not needed - not-on-it" bike they rode to become local heroes!
. . . . . . . .
1958 ~ 1961
London

"A café racer, originally pronounced "caff" (as in Kaff) racer, is a type of motorcycle as well as a type of motorcyclist. Both meanings have their roots in the 1960s British counterculture group the Rockers or the Ton Up Club, although they were also common in Italy, Germany, and other European countries.
Rockers were a young and rebellious Rock and Roll counterculture that wanted a fast, personalized and distinctive bike to travel between transport cafés, along the newly built arterial motorways, in and around British towns and cities.

The goal of many was to be able to reach 100 miles per hour (called simply "the ton") along such a route, where the rider would leave from a cafe, race to a predetermined point, and back to the cafe before a single song could play on the jukebox, called record-racing.

They are remembered as being especially fond of Rockabilly music and their image is now embedded in today's rockabilly culture.

A classic example of this was to race from the Ace Cafe on The North Circular road in NW London to the Hanger Lane junction as it then was - it is now the more famous Hanger Lane Gyratory System - and back again.

The challenge was for YOU to ride to the loop and get back to the Ace Cafe before the record YOU just played on the jukebox had ended!!! Given that some of the Eddie Cochran tunes that were in vogue at this time were less than 2 minutes long, the racers would have had to traverse the three miles round trip at extremely high speeds.

 

Whoa! I'm back!

I see where you're all coming from, and I totally support the idea of customization of motorcycles. I just wanted this opinion brought up and made known.

Xulf, your bike is beautiful man. Phenomenal, in fact. If you were the only kind of thing that is ever posted, I wouldn't ever have said anything... I think your bike is as close as anyone will ever get to turning an XJ into a "cafe". I just wanted to make a voice known in the XJ community that everyone chopping up their bikes to make cafe racers doesn't make the community look better. It doesn't make the bikes look better. And it cheapens the term "cafe racer". It makes it so anyone could put on clubmans and a tail and call it one.

I just wanted to make the point. I'm not saying it can't be replicated. I'm not saying that it's never done well (because I can could 3 times that it has been done well). I'm just saying it is a point that needs to be recognized by a lot of people here. And I know the 60s were the true cafe's, but no one can find 60s british bikes anymore and I find the 70s Japanese bikes a fine substitute for the every day man. I just think the 80s brought on a different era of frames, and a different era of creature comforts, weight, and style.

Cheers, guys. Good luck building. Just wanted to hear some conversation on the subject, as I think preserving the history is important, just as in anything. So many art forms and pure acts get ruined now days. You just see bullshit everywhere where there should be purity. But then again, I guess it doesn't matter.

 

Well, I guess it is a good thing you aren't in charge of how everyone builds their bikes, then. Because if you were, Cafe bikes would never have come into being in the first place.


You know, "purity" and all. Everyone would ride whatever the manufacturers produced. No mods whatsoever. MmmmmMmmmm. What a beautiful world that would be. Conformity rawks. Especially when it is imposed by someone on an intraweb forum who has decided he should never see things he doesn't personally find appealing.

Like I said, there are plenty of bikes I find ugly, in my personal opinion. But it is just that. My personal opinion. And I would never impose it on someone else's creativity.

 

I never said "conformity rawks". If you think I said that, you're missing my point...

There aren't a lot of XJs left and we all love them. All I'm saying is that if you're going to radically change one, you better make sure you know what you want out of it and make sure that you aren't bastardizing it into something it will never be. You can call that "conformity rawks" if you want, but that isn't what I'm saying.

Also, I wouldn't call most of the "cafe racer" mods i see creativity. We could all tell everyone that their cafe mods are perfect and make comments like "keep up the good work!" and everyone could chop their bikes and we could all be happy, or we could have an expectation of quality in the XJ community. It's your choice.

P.S. I have clubmans on my bike and hate the square headlight and atari box, hoping to get rid of them in time. Hence: anti-modification isn't what I'm saying. Just saying, lets have expectations.

 

So you're hooked up on semantics then?

Just because we modify it to look like, handle, and feel like a cafe racer, it can't be called one, just because it's the "wrong" bike to make into one?

So only british bikes are cafe racers. got it.

You're pretty hard on people who are chopping the frame of a fairly forgettable bike. the XJ bike, while odd and good at what it did, is more of a platform to be something special, than a good bike on its own. Besides, there are plenty of XJ's in the world. PLENTY.

It's like someone screaming about someone else turning a 53 bel air into a funny car. There are PLENTY more.

 

Tend to share the same tastes as bigfitz52 in that stock or pretty close to original tends to be what floats my boat.For various reasons but mostly because standards exist because they do everything well not perfectly but acceptable compromise FOR MOST PEOPLE.
Having said that some people build what suits them from basic raw material and some do a great job.Most modern custom stuff is a rehash of what used to be but the reason why is forgotten.Or its just a plain old wank.
But people do things like albuquerquechopper http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=13972.html and in my opinion its magic and probably his as well.Then there is painterD's bike http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/p=1 ... tml#151016 nice clean practical ride that looks like his bike no one else's.
Eases bike looks great http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=3 ... art=0.html and xulf13's looks great as well http://xjbikes.com/coppermine/displayim ... pos=1.html
But it doesn't really matter what I think they weren't built for me and as far as chopping them up because there are plenty around ,they run out fast when every body starts chopping.
The old argument about cafe racer vs streetfighter is a waste of time because they are pretty much the same thing done by different generations just that streetfighters are the contemporary version different materials and slightly different purpose.
I think this discussion is about taste more than anything else but still always fun!
There is more I'd like to say but when you type with 2 fingers it takes too d#*n long.

 

You won't be getting an XJ to handle like a cafe racer. You can make it look like one cosmetically, you may improve the handling, but that's about it.

Seriously, the XJ is pretty close to the top of the list of bikes that would NOT make a good cafe donor IMO. Shaft drive, 4 cyl, overweight, conservative steering geometry....and the Maxims are even less suited....

I love XJ's for their durability and no fuss (sometimes surprising) performance / capability....but to try and make a cafe racer out of one would be an exercise in form over function....which is the exact opposite of what a cafe racer should be.

 

Alright, you got me there. Shafties don't make high performance cafe bikes, haha.


I guess I should have mentioned the steering and stance, instead of "handling"

But in theory, I should be able to shave a damn good bit of weight off of my bike. I don't need a center stand, anti dive forks, engine guards, the atari and complex brake system, TWO headlights, and god knows how much useless wiring and metal there is to trim...

But I definitely feel you on the 4 cylinder front. For me, I just think small v twins or inline twins/thumpers are the way to go.

Ideally I will get my bike down to mearly this amount of metal.

 

How's this? The factory book says 407lb., the goofy "Cafe" fairing it came with weighed a lot more than 7lb.



Remember, not ALL XJ's are poor-handling, complicated, overweight shaft-drive clunkers...

I could put even lower bars on it, I guess, but then it wouldn't be as comfortable. And as far as handling, with updated suspension components the 550 Seca is a lot better than a goodly percentage of the old Britbikes, honest.

 

And since we're on the subject, I took a tape measure out to the garage.

The 4-cylinder Seca 550 motor is a whopping ONE INCH wider than my Norton's old "narrow" parallel twin.

Another interesting item: If I wanted to gain enough ground clearance on the Norton to get the lean angles possible with the completely stock 550 Seca, I'd have to remove its centerstand.

Don't get me wrong; I love the Cafe "look" and have been a lifelong fan of British twins. However, I like to RIDE my motorcycle, a lot. And there is such a thing as progress, although too much of it isn't necessarily a good thing. Turn-key reliability and smoothness, yes; plastic bodywork and thin seats, no. Which is why I like the early XJs so much.

As far as low bars and rearsets go, yes, they look cool. And they do have a certain advantage if you're riding fast over short distances. But spend 3, 4 or 7 hours in the saddle and then let's talk. I used to swap from "euro touring" bars to clubmans on my SR500 for a weekend of romping, and then switch back before the workweek commute. Long-distance comfortable, they ain't.

 

So now it's... "over weight shaft-drive clunkers"...hhrrrrmmph.. Better not take the 'ole bag for a coffee then.

 

Bigfitz beat me to the handling.
Shaft drive cafe racer http://www.allenmotorsports.com/mv750_sport_america.htm

 

Yes the MV 750 was a pretty machine, but it was competing with the Z1 and the CB750 at the time...... and it came third..... :cry:

 

To PipeDream, what bikes would consider to good cafe racers?

 

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... irago.html

Just digging up the "Spanish Cafe" with Virago spokes and hidden battery for everyone's enjoyment.

So is my Seca 900 a "cafe" since it has a lighter performance exhaust, smaller turn signals, holes in the airbox, lighter foam grips, Kevlar brake pads, or is a funny looking seat mandatory ??

 

You could also do a chain driver conversion on it which I would expect most of those that were raced would have, it was done as a factory option

 

Factory option?? Wow - gotta say I've never seen one 8O

 

Of course the true cafe's were the tritons and other british bikes of the era. But for practicality of ownership, I believe that the hondas, kawasakis, suzukis and yamahas that came over in the early 70's are fine substitutes.

Light bikes, good handling, aggressive stance... before the days of more complex machinery. There is a reason why those bikes are still raced today through organizations like the AHRMA and WERA. It's because they made great race bikes.

Who do you know that track races Secas? Do you think anyone will in 10 years? Ever? No. They aren't made for it!

Any "cafe" conversion done to one is almost always purely cosmetic... and that's fine but I don't want it to become any more of a lame fad than it already is. No reason to chop good bikes to follow the mold of what everyone thinks is cool. Especially when what you end up with is a heavy sport tourer dressed up like a race bike for halloween.

 

The chain drive seca 550 above would more than easily keep up with a cafe bike.

 

PipeDreams, sounds like you're pretty closed-minded. People can modify their bikes to be whatever they want them to be. I'm going a little bit for the "cafe" look, but that's mostly with clubmans, changing the lights, exhaust, and a few other little things. No chopping required, anything done to the bike, even if I put a single seat on it, will be able to be reverted to stock within a couple hours.

Even if I had a new bike I would change SOMETHING on it though. Different mirrors or grips or change the lights or tag mount, something to signify that its mine.

I guess mostly I want to comment on your definition of a cafe racer. We all have seen the history posted on here, late 50s early 60s races in Britain, but guess how it all started? These guys had stock bikes and modified them! Changed bars, removed/chopped parts, etc. Eventually manufacturers caught on and produced some cafe style models, but there were still a lot of conversions. Same with the new streetfighters, it's just owners modifying their bikes to be lighter and handle better. I'm not saying that our 80s shaft driven bikes are the same as the 60s and 70s bikes, but the spirit of the owner is the same.

Finally, please stay out of the modification forum if you can't appreciate anything in it.

 

Thank you for bring nothing new to the conversation, repeating what others have already said, and further failing to understand the point I made.

 

You know, usually I just read these forums for the great help, but once in a while someone really frustrates me.

For someone who says they just want to hear some conversation, maybe next time you can grow up and not insult everyone you are trying to have a conversation with. Calling the modification forum "bullshit everywhere where there should be purity" just shows how narrow minded your argument is. If no one made a modification because someone else, aka you, might have disagreed upon it, we wouldn't have half the bikes we have nowadays.

In fact, I would like to argue that people experimenting with their bikes in fact does create a vaster deeper community. It changes attitudes, creates new ideas, fosters new ways of looking at things. But if you're too stuck up about your stock bike to understand that, don't come into a modification forum and start insulting people. Last time I checked a bunch of people worried about creating the exact same product worked on an assembly line. This is the modification forum, not an assembly line forum.

Honestly, his point was entirely applicable, and you have no argument to begin with. You're a class A bully who decided to troll a forum saying that your opinion is the best and that everyone is "ruining" their bikes by doing what they want with them. You have offered absolutely nothing to this discussion. Next time you want to start a discussion show some respect for other people as they have shown you. Otherwise, get lost.

 

Give him a break- he is just mad that stacked headlights and odd instrument clusters haven't made a comeback yet. :wink:

 

I have neither on my bike.

Once again, I never said I don't like customization and modification. If you'd have even read my posts, I said multiple times that I'm all for it and love to see it.

Also, there's no trolling going on here. I think I've been pretty cordial and even said that I agree with a lot of points on here. I've shown respect to everyone that has posted with something legitimate to say. I don't see where in this thread you think I've been disrespectful?

 

Mate - it's the internet. People get wound up over other people being mis-quoted all the time :lol:

For what it's worth, I think the XJ has a Superbike hidden deep down in there somewhere.......

 

There's a Flag on the play.
Illegal procedure.

Now we can add "Cafe Racer" to:
Oil
Tires
YICS Tuning
Middle Gear Plug Draining
Less filling ... Tastes Great
Paper ... Plastic

Please make it a discussion ... sans Personal affronts ... or we'll have to call it quits.

 

Funny, I thought street-fighters or bobbers would have made it to the list before cafe racers.


How about a designated hitter discussion next?

 

i feel like i just walked in on a heated health care reform debate.