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Adjusting valves... looking for experienced advice...

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by chuckles_no, Feb 2, 2010.

  1. chuckles_no

    chuckles_no Member

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    So I decided to give adjusting my valves a shot but have never done this before.
    My options are, 1- let a shop do it for some wild price or 2 do it myself and risk an even bigger expense.
    I figured if I am going to really get to know my bike and really start learning how to do my own stuff I need to learn this.
    I have a clymer manual for the bike which gives pretty good instructions if you already know some things.
    I am not doing the adjustment immediately but I am beginning my research for the job now. As soon as the tank is back from the paint shop I am going to do the adjustment.
    If your advice is not to do it myself then say so. I have never even seen under the valve cover of a motorcycle before... Should I just get a 2 stroke? Haha.
    Another thing (Fitz and Rickomatic, I am kinda looking your way 8O ) what is a must to have by my side when doing the job. I'd hate to be into it knee deep and realize I forgot a ratchygismatilator or something like that.
    Dos and don'ts, watch-out-fors, do-this-firsts, etc. I have gone way to far with this bike to screw up so I want to get this right.
     
  2. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    what's you tank have to do with it?
    make yourself one of these and it'll save a lot of time, align the cam the first time and stick it down to some mark or make your own then the rest of the lobes will be on a mark every time
    write everything down twice, on a paper and on the cam bearing caps
    just to be sure :)
     
  3. chuckles_no

    chuckles_no Member

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    Well I suppose i don't need the tank but It is more or less so I can hook everything up and run the bike after doing stuff like this. i could use one of those little miniature tank thingies but don't want to buy one. Just used to using longer hoses and setting the tank on the seat.
    This is the first time I have ever done this... period. I have never adjusted the cam chain or timing or any of that either so aligning cams, don't know what you mean. But I am sure the clymer will go through that.
     
  4. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    You just need to get the pointy end of the cam lobe at 180 deg to the shim face when you take your reading.
     
  5. Bushy

    Bushy Active Member

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  6. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Chuck:

    You ought to be a reasonably good swimmer if you're going to dive-in to the deep end.
    Adjusting Valves isn't the first job I'd like to have you do; but if you have the Tools, Manual and confidence you should take your time and see IF any NEED adjusting.

    If it comes to pass that you have Valves that need a different shim; I'd put-out an A-P-B for some help getting it done, ... the first time around for you.
     
  7. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    chuckles; a lot of work went into that thread. Have you read it yet? It pretty much tells you the whole process beginning to end with pictures. And coincidentally, I did it on a 550 (although all aircooled motors are the same.) Give it a read, and then ask questions if you still have any.

    The only "tip" beyond what's in there would be to use a "pure metric" feeler gauge, it makes the job less of a headache.
     
  8. chuckles_no

    chuckles_no Member

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    Wow, Fitz... Awesome thread! Like I posted there... better, by far, than the clymer.
    Thanks for the advice, Rick... and I will be here first if the shims need replacing. It seems the thread left nothing out at all. But i am not the type to guess if I run into a problem.
    If anything should arise, I'll leave it alone and come here first.
    I definitely have the confidence once I start a job like this. I seem to be sketchy before I start something, but, as long as there is a procedure to follow, I can do it.... usually. The manual is there and so is this thread.
    What i need to do is make certain I have everything I am going to need... like a good set of feeler guages. i have straight ones but it seems here I am going to want angled ones.
    So far it seems like my two obvious hassles will probably be removing the valve cover and also removing the shims (if needed). It looks like someone went in there before because that gooey black stuff that people use when they just want to hurry up and slop a valve cover on is all around the gasket. The guy who the po used to have do the bike also set the carb floats too low, had the pilots at 4 different positions, overlooked holes and cracks in the boots and manifolds, and obviously didn't wash the carb bodies before disassembly. So I think the valves were attempted recently... 2 or 3 years ago, but I want to make sure they are done right.
     
  9. Robert

    Robert Active Member

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    I've GOT to get one of those!!!
    (Very creative Chuckles!)
     
  10. skillet

    skillet Active Member

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    You won't need it for the shims (Good Luck with that job). As far as the "miniature tank thingies", I went to lawnmower repair and got a plastic tank (used $2) from riding mower. Thought I had a metal tank with it's own off and on valve. Cleaned it up and found too many pin holes :cry: . Swapped it back for the plastic one. I had rubber hoses and bought clamps and a valve. It worked GREAT!!!

    skillet
     
  11. chuckles_no

    chuckles_no Member

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    Haha... yeah... learned about a lot of new tools since I have started riding.
     
  12. Danilo

    Danilo Member

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    Seriouisly? Take it to a shop (a decent one though) It will be Much easier on you and the Bike. These things are a PITA to 'correctly' fit the 'right' shims.. Of which you will invariably not have on hand.
     
  13. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    No, they're not. For any given clearance/currectly installed shim, there is only ONE that will put that cylinder in spec.

    Doing the job correctly is simply a matter of checking and recording all the clearances; then going back and "reading" the installed shims on any cylinder that is out of spec.

    Then using the chart or some basic math, you determine which shim(s) you need. Then you order them.

    It's not difficult to get and fit the correct shims; it IS a two-stage process.

    It's not a difficult procedure at all; but you do need to proceed carefully and methodically.
     
  14. streetbrawler750

    streetbrawler750 Member

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    The tool for holding the tappet down is a must? I am guessing it is easier and cheaper to get from chacal than to build one?
     
  15. chuckles_no

    chuckles_no Member

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    Well... isn't that the tool that actually comes secured under the valve cover somewhere? I remember reading this in my clymer a while ago (the book is at the shop with my bike right now) and I think the tool actually comes with the bike
     
  16. tcoop

    tcoop Active Member

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    I didn't see one under my valve cover.
     
  17. Lou627

    Lou627 Member

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    You dont need the holder. You can take a zip tie, crimp it in half, and crimp a half inch 90 degree bend on the folded side.

    - Turn your crankshaft so the valve youre working on is open (tappet depressed by cam)

    -Put your new tool in through the spark plug hole and slip that 90 degree bend you made in between the valve and the seat. (Requires some "feeling around)"

    -Now turn the crank to close the valve, and get the zip tie to pinch in the closing valve (takes some getting used to, 3 times and you'll get it everytime). This will hold the valve open, leaving the tappet depressed.

    -Turn your crankshaft so that the cam is pointing up (no contact with the tappet). You now have the room to pop out the shim.
     
  18. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    No, the tool is not part of the bike.

    Yes, you can use the "zip tie" trick; I didn't bring it up because I'm not a believer. But I'm also not a mechanical evangelist, so do the zip tie thing if you want.
     
  19. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    "mechanical evangelist" Oooh yea Hallelujah my brothers let me hear ya say aaamen, send your contribution to da church o da Stuck Screw
    go now, and spread da word of shiny side up
     
  20. TIMEtoRIDE

    TIMEtoRIDE Active Member

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    . . . and it came to pass that someone's Chinese zip tie snapped under pressure, and it was revealed unto the masses, that a piece of 12/2 household wire is a more perfect tool. And the people rejoiced.
     
  21. Lou627

    Lou627 Member

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    LOL :) That does sould like a better way...
     
  22. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    If your valve seats are in good condition they can sever a zip tie as clean as a rabbi's izmel................
     
  23. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    There's also the carbon, and that clean, fragile edge...

    Personally, I don't shove stuff down the hole, I use the tool.

    I won't argue the point; that's been done ad nauseum. Use whatever method works the best for you. I just tend to agree with the legion of reasons the factory engineers recommend the use of the tool.
     
  24. lorne317

    lorne317 Member

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    I just recently worked up the courage to do this myself.After reading the how to (great job Bigfitz!) I was discouraged to learn of this tool.I had resolved that I'd have to make do with the home-grown solution rather than pay and wait for another tool.Coincedently,that same day I was browsing the motorcycle section of Kijiji (like Craigslist) and found an add for the very tool I needed for a mere $10.00.I picked it up the next day and intended on practicing first on a motor from a parts bike I bought with the intent of a) getting the much needed practice and b) an extra set of shims.I soon discovered a seized motor and spent most of the day trying to free it up with zero results,so that job awaits next weekend.
     
  25. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    I have the MotionPro Valve Shim Changing Took.

    Used it to do the Valves on my 900 several times.
    When I got the 750 and needed Shims; I thought the Tool would do the trick.
    Nope.
    The MotionPro Shim Tool doesn't work on the 750's.

    So, rather than sticking something in to hold the Valve open; I bought the Steel Cable Flex Extension.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RB ... 1JAM2WQA2W

    Then, pulled-off the cam Chain Tensioner so I could undo the Camshaft Bearing Caps and lift the Cam up ...
    JUST ENOUGH TO SLIP OUT THE SHIM <<
     
  26. LVSteve2011

    LVSteve2011 Member

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    I know it's kinda late to mention this but there is one other good reason not to hold a valve open "Mickey Mouse" style; By placing a block at just one point on the valve, you are subjecting the valves head to a terrible stress which could bend the valve. Valve stem diameters can be quite small especially for 550's. Just something to think about.
     
  27. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    That's precisely why I don't recommend any of those Disney-Land approaches to hold-open a Valve for re-shimming.

    The Valve Trains on these Bikes are designed to run at High RPM.
    The Valves needs to open and close without any chance that there will be the slightest possibility of Float.

    Twin Valve Springs, ... one within the other ... supply tremendous force to insure the Valves don't linger remaining extended for a millisecond.

    I think placing the business-end of a Valve under an imbalance risks having the Stem to Valve-face precision alignment disturbed.
    Having the Valve Face get "Bent" ... even so slightly that it would take "The Last Word" type -- Dial Indicator to measure the degree of misalignment ... would open the door to ruining the gas-tight seal.

    That would place that Valve, ... even though well withing Valve Adjustment Specs ... at risk for becoming burned.
     
  28. grunt007

    grunt007 Member

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    Good tools allow good mechanics to do the job right the first time. My Dad always taught me that when it counts not to go second best on the tool you have to rely on. Tools are expensive usually but a cheap tool in the long run can make a non-expensive job a very expensive job in the long run. If you have no money to spend I can understand going cheap on the tool but usually what it comes down to is a matter of PRIORITY'S. Quality tools breeds quality work. grunt007, 81' 750 SecaR, Mi.
     
  29. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Using the "zip tie" method, or the kindler and gentler piece of insulated wire instead, isn't going to actually bend a valve.

    That being said, I DO NOT recommend it, but for other reasons, related to the arguments above.

    "Hooking" the edge of the valve to hold it open will cause the dual valve springs to apply a bit of unusual side-loading; it's not going to bend the valve but what it can do is mash the valve stem sideways in its nice 30 year old SEAL which may not take kindly to said mashing. It may begin to leak.

    Those same strong valve springs will cause your zip-tie or house wire to dig into the delicate carbon cushion that's built up on the valve's seat and backside of its head. If it digs in enough to knock a significant hunk out, it can lead to a burnt valve; or at least to a valve that won't seat quite properly any more until lapped again.

    Potentially causing a non-leaking valve stem seal to start leaking and/or damaging the "carbon cushion" are the main reasons for using the tool rather than propping the valve open; I highly doubt there's any danger of actually bending a valve.
     
  30. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    why doesn't this tremendous spring pressure stretch the valve stem?
    installed pressure(valve closed) ....about 63 lbs.
    if you want to do it right get the right tool, a degree wheel, so you don't guess eight times when the lobe is at the top
     
  31. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    I tried to straighten a valve which had been warped by heat, I even hit it with a lump hammer, it didn't flinch, so I don't think being held open with plastic would do any harm.
     
  32. kontiki

    kontiki Member

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    Why not use two "hold-open" wires in the plug hole - one on either side of the valve stem so that force is exerted more evenly against the stem and valve seat? Sounds logical to me, probably will take a bit more finesse... but everything on this bike needs extra TLC :)


    I have used #12 insulated wire for so many things throughout the years I'm convinced it will work in this instance as well.
     
  33. parts

    parts Member

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    I've so far only used the zip tie/wire method.
    Not do to any preference other then saving a few
    bucks for the "tool". I gave up trying to do the "bendy"
    thing and prefer to just slip something between the valve
    and the seat.


    I'm very near to spending the money for the tool anyway

    do to a cross threaded #1 plug that I can't get out without the
    possibility of further damage to the sp hole, and for that
    I need to get a HELI COIL which I can't afford right now.

    So with a stuck plug you have to use a bucket holding tool
    to compress the valve. Such is life I suppose.
     

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