Drain ALL your oil

You've already run to the store to buy the CORRECT oil for your bike, warmed her up, laid down a sheet of cardboard to collect drips, pulled the plug. . . but in the back of your mind a little voice tells you "there's 3,500 CC's in there, somewhere, you only drained 2,800 CC's"

I decided to chase after some of this oil and MEASURE the amounts.

Alot of people change the filter every OTHER oil change. That's OK. Especially when you change the oil every 2,000 miles,
but take the time to DUMP the oil from the housing and while you're in there, stick a couple small magnets in there on the filter.
I found 12 OZ of oil in the filter housing, and I would estimate 8 OZ in the oil cooler, lines, and adapter.

MIDDLE GEAR HOUSING - - Yes, I went there, but I have a 4 into 1 exhaust AND I broke the drain bolt loose while the motor was out.
7 OZ of nastiness came out. Stock exhaust almost completely blocks access to this bolt.
**WARNING** DO NOT ATTEMPT!! THE BOLT COULD SHEAR OFF !!

"there's still more oil" the voice said.
How much could there be in the oil pump and related galleys?
4 OZ came out when I cranked the engine over without starting it.
Going this far requires cranking the engine to re-prime the oil pump and fill the filter housing before starting the engine.
I crossed the solenoid with a wrench- - key "OFF".

That totals up to 31 OZ of oil that would otherwise contaminate your fresh oil.
The oil filled to the bottom of the tape \/ line

 

Yikes! Now I fell soooo dirty!

 

I made sure to try my best to clean all the oil out in my seca, because there was a good chance that the oil was 30 years old, I got her nice and warm, drained it, pulled the plug caps off and turned the motor over, then took off the fill cap, and put in the air nozzle and covered it with my hand and shot some air in there, then turned it over again, let it sit for 2 days and did the same thing

 

That is true, Dr. TimetoRide, but I'd like a second opinion. I'm just so dern curious.

Using your numbers, 20% of the oil is left over on the first oil change, then 4% on the second, then .8%, then .16%, .032%, etc.

Now in schooter's case, I can certainly understand a complete purge of the 30 year old oil, which itself is millions of years old (yeah, I know, not in that form, its a joke).

Where is the line that we should draw that requires us to purge the old oil rather than dilute it? 30 years, 10 years, 1 year, every oil change?

We purify our oil every day. It's the same OIL, its just that we remove the contaminants. I guarantee you not all the contaminants get removed, as you can smell the difference between fresh and purified oil (smells SWEET). We use the same oil for YEARS. Commercial 15W-30. FYI, long story short, we clean it with water! And a heavy, expensive lube oil purifier of course.

 

Well, the oil filter only gets rid of the suspended particles, but not the acids or dissolved contaminants. It would be nice to get rid of ALL the spent oil during an oil change, but some oil will be hiding in the motor somewhere.

And the idea of using a motor flush, like diesel, doesn't work well, because some of THAT would be left behind also.
How do you clean oil with water ??

 

that leftover oil teaches the new oil which way to go

 

A picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.seiho.com.sg/images/Oil_Purifiers.gif

The water is electrically polarized, and attracts the contaminants more than the oil. We mix them, and then separate them centrifugally. I'm serious about using the same oil for years. Saves the taxpayer gobs of money.

Unless you take apart and dry out the oil, SOME oil will ALWAYS be left over, no matter how thoroughly you drain. I'm only wondering at what point it's really worth a complete drain. I understand that getting only 80% new oil might not seem all that appealing, but when does it SCIENTIFICALLY become insufficient?

Any mechanical engineers??? I guess the cost of new oil is probably becomes more expensive than the work put into the full drain at some point. Don't forget the opportunity cost that working on your bike brings. You could be, say, playing with your kids instead, or drinking beer watching the game, or sleeping, you get the point.

(WARNING! ROUGH ESTIMATES AHEAD)
Say my time off is worth $60 per hour for me. If it were more it would be more expensive to do it yourself than it would be to take it to a shop that charges $65 per hour.
That means I can do a complete drain like yours in 2? hours and a partial drain in .5 hours. So at $8 per L, for 2.5 L, that's $20 per oil change parts, and $30 labor, so $50. A full drain costs $120 in labor, plus $20 in parts, so $140. So you could do 3 back to back oil changes for approx. the same cost as a full drain. That would get you down to .8% old oil. To get down to 4% old oil, you could save $50. But what if 20% old oil is PERFECTLY FINE? Do you like blowing $100? I sure don't.

Am I overthinking this? I think so.

 

"Saves the taxpayer gobs of money"...........WOW....just like the new health care bill

 

We have 7 Isotta Franchini diesels on our ship. Imagine the cost of changing those every 3 months!

Or we could just not have a Navy, I guess. I realize some would be fine with that. Obviously I don't think that would be a good idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avenger_cl ... sures_ship

 

Brilliant

 

Day7, still going to sea in a wooden ship! Nice!

Go safely my friend,

Loren

 

Day7a1, I assumed a centrifugal method but did not even consider mixing with water. Quite enlightening... Thank you.

 

Day7a1- - you make a valid point about what our TIME is worth.
I've read that if Bill Gates saw a $100 bill at his feet- - he would WASTE his TIME by picking it up.
I saw your point that you were giving a "rough estimate", I'll try to tighten it up a bit.

it is good advise on this site to remove your rim and re-install it for a tire change, saving you the $30, and balance it yourself to save another $15. There happens to be a recession going on, and our time seems to be worth more like $20/HR. It varies, of course, depending on your circumstances.

My initial point was that as long as you have your tools and rags and containers out, you might as well go a little further with the oil change.

A simple oil change, with driving to the store, finding that 19MM deep well, getting rags, a pan, and warming up the bike, then properly disposing the oil should take at least an hour.

Draining the filter housing and re-install takes 10 minutes.
Draining the Middle gear housing takes 2 minutes. (IF YOU CAN, SEE ABOVE WARNING)
Purging the pump takes 1 minute. (you just crank the engine a little)

Well I crunched the numbers, oil volume per dollar of labor- -
2,800 CC's is valued at $20= 140 CC: $1
591 CC's (oil filter/cooler $3.33 = 177.17 CC:$1
207 CC's (middle gear) 0.66 = 313.63 CC:$1
118 CC's (pump purge) 0.33 = 357.57 CC:$1

I didn't expect this at all, but the further you delve into chasing that dirty oil, the more efficient your efforts are, and this does not even count dilution at all !!

The more dirty oil you can get out of your engine, the better off your engine will be.

 

I like it!

Just to un-brag a bit, my first oil change on my bike cost me the normal oil change costs, plus oil change start up costs (funnel, pan). Then the fun began!

I broke two sockets, and a socket adapter. I didn't bother replacing the similar size standard socket, but I think I spent around $50 for that oil change, plus about 2 hours, at least, at ~$25 per hour. Of course the funnel and pan would properly get depreciated over time, if you follow the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), but it still hurt the pocket that first time out!

I would do it your way the next time out, but I'm sick of sheared bolts. Given the above story, would YOU feel like draining the middle gear housing?

BTW, Since you've had the engine out, what is the height differential between the oil drain plug and the bottom of the middle gear housing. I mean, how much "tip" would have to be had to drain the middle gear housing through the oil drain plug. Are we talking incline, mountain, or hoisting the rear tire into the air?

I have a slight incline in my driveway and when I changed my clutch, I didn't have a drop of oil come out of the clutch case after I drained my oil. Sometimes things do go well.

 

My biggest concern is whether you did your duty and emptied those beer bottles into and approved human container before filling them with your used oil. Disposing of the beer in any other way would have been a major crime punishable by death in most parts of the country....
Interesting thoughts though. I've wondered about just how much is left in there myself a few times...then I fire it up and go for a ride and strangely enough I forget all about it!
Mike

 

TIME ...

As excited about this as you are, ... and, the enthusiasm shows;
we don't re-write Standard Operating Procedure.

Why?
Because you prompt someone to duplicate your experiment and their luck won't be so good trying to drain a mouthful of used oil that you portray as being so toxic that the EPA ought to declare the Bike a SuperFund Site.

People who pull regular maintenance on their Bikes and drain the Oil and Filter Housing every 3,000 -to- 3,500 miles ought to be allowed to re-bottle what they are draining out for somebody else to use before it REALLY gets contaminated.

If we needed to go to the extent of getting ALL the Oil out of our Bikes ... the Bike would have to have its Fuel Tank and Battery removed and be placed on a device that inverts the bike, tilts the Bike to and fro and up and down ... and then spun at high speed to have centrifugal forces cleanse each void and cavity of the evil toxic waste we generate every 3000 miles.

ALL the Oil that the Factory recommends you change at Regular Intervals ... comes rushing, spilling, flowing, trickling ... then, dripping steadily, dripping slowly, dripping every so often, until one partial drip that defies gravity remains to be wiped-off from Engine Oil Drain Plug.

Then the Book says:

Put the Plug back-in and Fill 'er up.
Filter Change: Optional

Just changing the Oil is ... Good enough.
Doing the Filter too is ... Better.

Let's try to keep it a simple "Labor of Love" .... and, not an adventure that could very possibly become not only very expensive to resolve, but also sentence someone to, ...

Several days of Hard Labor.

 

For some reason I have a headache now. I just wana ride.

 

Next for an oil change is my 900. I think I'll try tipping the bike hard over, both sides, and post my findings soon. . .

(EDIT) you only need to lay the bike hard over to the right, on shaft drive models, to displace the middle gear oil.

 

All I got out this is I must empty three beer bottle before I change my oil.
8)

 

The beer bottles must be emptied into a proper human container!!
Mike