1. Some members were not receiving emails sent from XJbikes.com. For example: "Forgot your password?" function to reset your password would not send email to some members. I believe this has been resolved now. Please use "Contact Us" form (see page footer link) if you still have email issues. SnoSheriff

    Hello Guest. You have limited privileges and you can't "SEARCH" the forums. Please "Log In" or "Sign Up" for additional functionality. Click HERE to proceed.

The more I try the worse it gets

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by koolaid5, Jun 3, 2010.

  1. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Ok, so when I first picked this bike up it started, but the idle was jacked up. It would race as soon as I touched the throttle. First thing I thought of was to clean the carbs, SO I took them off and decided they weren't that dirty and didn't feel like messing with them much at this time...... light cleaning and tossed them back on. Since then I haven't been able to get the bike to idle at ALL. I could get it to start up, but it would only run for 2-3 seconds when I got lucky. No problem.... I need to take the carbs back off, do a full cleaning/rebuild, bench synch, and then put them back on. I just finished that up last night and installed them AGAIN this afternoon. I just tried to start the bike and NOTHING. Now I can't even get the f'er to try and turn over. Next step would be to check the spark, right? Ok, so the plugs weren't too old, but they were BLACK, so I just went ahead and put new ones in....no biggie. The battery is good at 12.5v and the spark looks decent. STILL WON'T EVEN TURN OVER!!!! what the f*** did I do now? It seems like the more I try the worse I make everything :(

    HELP!
     
  2. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    oh, and this is still with stock jetting, airbox, and pipes. I wanted to get it running well before I threw more variables into the mix.
     
  3. skeeter

    skeeter Member

    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Iron Mountain, MI
    i'm a little confused - when you say it won't even "turn over" do you mean it won't "turn over" as in the starter does not engages and doesn't crank the engine or do you mean it doesn't "turn over" as in the engine won't even run a little bit.

    i.e. i'm confused as to how you can have spark if it won't turn over . . .

    have you tried to start it with starting fluid?

    since you have spark, it's not the kill switch ;)

    black plugs and no starting sounds like too rich (or oil fouled). a compression test will tell you something about whether your oil fouling plugs i think.

    too rich could be that your choke circuit is not closing properly, incorrect jetting, or float heights too high.
     
  4. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    The starter is cranking the engine, but the engine is not firing.....does that make more sense?

    After trying to start for a few minutes I pulled one of the new plugs and NOTHING.... I thought it would have been a little wet or something, but it looks just like it did when I put it in there.

    I'm only 99.9% I put the jets back in the right places. I sketched a diagram when taking them apart to make sure I did, but then my wife "cleaned" off the side of the fridge where I stuck it up :( 120 is the one that goes in the end of the emulsion tube and the 40 goes right by that, right? eh....I'm pretty sure I got all of them right. I found a diagram and think I made sense of it to help me out.
     
  5. iwingameover

    iwingameover Active Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maryland
    are you putting the airbox boots back on before you try to start it? Mine gave me a hell of a time trying to start without the boots.
     
  6. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    oh, and I don't have any starter fluid....nor do I know how to try and start the bike that way. Do you put it directly into the cylinders? I want to avoid taking the carbs back off today if I can :D I don't have a lot of time to work on the bike until tonight. Kids are home from school and it needs to get put away before "the one who must be obeyed" gets home from work.
     
  7. iwingameover

    iwingameover Active Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maryland
    float heights? Gas in the carbs? open the drain screw and make sure gas comes out.
     
  8. skeeter

    skeeter Member

    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Iron Mountain, MI
    yup. sounds like your fuel jets are correct.

    did you by chance take out your air jets? the hayne's manual has those labelled backwards (so you might've put it in backwards).

    sounds like you're definitely not getting any fuel.

    i'm assuming you put your petcock on PRI for awhile to fill the bowls before you started it? if that don't cure it, i'd try a little starter fluid.

    a lot of times when i reinstall the carbs, my bike just doesn't want to start that first time - i spray a little carb cleaner in the intake (before i put the airbox boots back on) and it starts right up. after that, it starts on it's own and THEN i put the airbox boots back on.

    with all this cranking and not running, you might wanna put your battery on a tender, too.
     
  9. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    really???? I figured it would start the best that way? Shows what I know. Yeah, I have the carbs all reinstalled and everything tightened down. Was yours at least TRYING to start (firing) when you were have trouble though?
     
  10. skeeter

    skeeter Member

    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Iron Mountain, MI
    as for starting fluid (i wouldn't do this with ether, cuz it's WAY more explosive than carb cleaner). you could try spraying carb cleaner into the intake (if the boots are off). you could pull a spark plug, spray some in the hole, and put the plug back in. you could try spraying some into one of the vacuum ports on an intake boot. anything that will get a mist of carb cleaner into a cylinder should work.

    don't worry about getting the whole engine to run - i've had good luck helping one cylinder out and the other ones usually come along for the ride.

    ether, i believe, you can shoot into your air box and it will draw through the air filter.
     
  11. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    I did take out my air jets. I'll check and see if I can find the diagram I used and post it in here to see if it's correct.

    I'm using an aux gas tank right now along with an inline filter, so no prime/on/off ....just straight through valve. Yes, I opened up the fuel valve and filled the carb bowls. I'll go out and take out a drain screw to make sure they actually DID fill with gas though. Battery.... I think I got a bum tender from O'Rileys and haven't returned it yet, so I'm atcually hooking the battery up to the JEEP'S battery when I'm trying to start the bike, so the battery is nice and strong around 12.5-12.6 for a few minutes until I have to disconnect it to start and charge the HEEP's battery, so I don't kill it.
     
  12. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    The float heights looked to be ok, but I wasn't exactly sure how to measure them, so yeah......I probably should have done that. I thought it would at least be good enough to start and then I could take a look at those closer when I got around to putting the jet kit in :( I'm a dumbass....
     
  13. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    I think I'll go out right now and check the bowls for fuel and then spray some carb cleaner into a cylinder or two.
     
  14. skeeter

    skeeter Member

    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Iron Mountain, MI
    i've read strong opinions on here about jumping a bike off a car (something about frying the TCI or something) - so you might want to be careful with the JEEP battery. IMHO, you should be ok as long as the JEEP isn't running.
     
  15. iwingameover

    iwingameover Active Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maryland
    The problem with no carb boots is the same as pods. Too much unrestricted air to CV carbs is bad very bad. If you just want to tune you can stick lightly cruppled newspaper in the carb throat for your restirction. It worked for me though your results may vary. If still a no go, spray your newspaper with carb cleaner a little and try again.

    For float level, fuel flow on, clear tube attached to drain hole and held up along side carb body. Open drain screw. Fuel should stop +/- 2mm from top of bowl.

    If you search there are pictures.
     
  16. Johndoe21

    Johndoe21 New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Fort St. John B.C. Canada
    wd40 also works great as starter fluid. and you can check if your mixture is any good using it if you can get it running.

    i didnt read very throughly but if you arent getting fuel into your carbs check that your valve between the tank and carb is turned to the bypass point.. if there isnt any vacume the valve wont allow any fuel past when its turned to "on"
     
  17. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    PROGRESS!!!! thanks guys. I pushed the carb boots back into the air box and sprayed some carb cleaner in there and it fired right up for 2 seconds. I'm getting NO FUEL in the bowls. I took out a drain screw and NADA. So, what the hell did I do wrong there?
     
  18. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Thanks....I"ll do that. I need to get some tubing I guess.

    As long as the vehicle isn't started it is fine. If you start it THEN you'll jack all sorts of shit up in your bike's system. That wouldn't be purty.
     
  19. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Yeah, I'll have to use wd40 if I have to do this too much longer. I'm just about out of carb cleaner.

    Fuel - I'm just usning a straight through valve attached to my aux tank. I have it haning over the bike, so gravity is doing the work.... it should be good.
     
  20. skeeter

    skeeter Member

    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Iron Mountain, MI
    lets hope floats aren't in upside down - it's an easy mistake to make, but first step is to verify you've got fuel flowing from your temp tank to the inlet pipe on the carbs.

    hmm - does your temp tank have a vent? that very well could be the problem . . .

    anyhow - if you got fuel flowing *to* the carbs, and still no fuel *in* the carbs, then, well, you know what that means. . .
     
  21. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    yeah, the fuel is getting to the carbs.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA putting the floats in upside down sounds like something I would do. The rounded part on the float goes up or down?

    I'll dig up that diagram I used, so that you guys can double check to make sure I put the air screws in correctly. That way I'll only have to pull these things back off ONE more time today....hopefully. No big deal if I'm not hooking up the air box boots right away. It's too easy without doing that. It will take half the time. It's putting on and taing off all of the clamps that makes taking carbs on/off a PITA and time consuming.
     
  22. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Oh, and one more thing. My carb rebuild kits came with a small o-ring that I don't know what to do with. I did a search on here last night and someone said that it is the o-ring that sits under the mixture screws, so I took out all of the mixture screws and was going to replace it, but that is NOT the o-ring that I got with the kit. The o-rings that came with the kit are quite a bit bigger than that. I have no clue where they go. ideas?
     
  23. TMHack

    TMHack Member

    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Green Bay, WI
    possibly under the enrichment plunger?
     
  24. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Yeah, that's all I could think of too, so I just stuck them in a baggie and saved them in case there is a day I tear the carbs down that far to check.
     
  25. iwingameover

    iwingameover Active Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maryland
    No orings on the enrichment plungers.

    Are they rubber orings? I got brass orings/washer with my kits and they went under the new needle seats. Atleast that's where I put them since some came off of there.
     
  26. skeeter

    skeeter Member

    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Iron Mountain, MI
    hmm - hard to describe what side of the float goes up or down, cuz when you look at the float, the carb is upside down. however, to check if the float is in the right way - there's a little "stop tab" that will keep the float from dropping down too far into the bowl - so if you put the float in, and then "right" the carbs so they're right-side-up as they would be on the bike, the tab would stop the float from falling very far.

    if that doesn't make sense - you should install the float so it is as far away from the bottom of the bowl as you can get it.

    if that doesn't make sense - you should install the float the way that will allow the most fuel into the bowl before the bouyancy of the float shuts off the gas.

    if none of that makes sense - install two of 'em one way and two of 'em the other way - which ever 2 cylinders fire are the right way ;)

    --------

    as for the air jets - the bigger air jet goes with the smaller fuel jet and the smaller air jet goes with the bigger fuel jet. so - you can spray carb cleaner or compressed air into the pilot jet and see which hole it comes out up top - that's where the larger air jet goes. got me?

    --------

    as for the o-rings, if they're too big for the idle mix screw, they might be for the fuel rail - the tubes that carry fuel to all the carbs.

    -------

    also - if you've got the carbs off and apart - might wanna remove the needle seat and make sure the screen is clear. and shoot carb cleaner into the gas inlet (or hook up your temp tank if you don't mind spilling some gas) and verify that, with the floats off and needles out, you've got fuel flowing to all 4 carbs.
     
  27. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    HAHAHAHAHHA.....no need to do too much of that skeeter. I DID install the floats upside down. What you wrote makes TOTAL sense, because when I righted the carbs with the bowls still off I was having a hard time keeping the floats from falling off. I just figured with the bowls on they wouldn't be allowd to drop down that far, so I slapped them back together like that ..... I'm glad it's probably just that simple though.

    I was trying to post up the diagram I used to figure out the jets, but I can't get logged in to photobucket for some reason right now. I'll just check what you said with the diagram.

    Thanks a lot for your help. I think I might get this sorted out yet...
     
  28. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    and the air jet ARE in there correctly.
     
  29. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    No....I got those two. I got all new stuff for the float vale....seats, washer, and plunger thingy. Also... bowl gaskets, mixture screw plugs, and this rubber o-ring that I don't know what to do with.
     
  30. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Ok, so here is the diagram I used last night along with this post from chacal to help get the jets back in where i THINK they go.



    XJ750 Models:

    Years & Models: 1981-3 XJ750 Maxim, Midnight Maxim, and Seca USA models
    Carb Manufacturer: Hitachi
    Carb Series: HSC32
    Carb Model ID: 15R00 (Maxim, Midnight Maxim)
    Carb Model ID: 5G200 (Seca)
    Main FUEL Jet Size: #120
    Pilot FUEL Jet Size: #40
    Main AIR Jet Size: #80
    Pilot AIR Jet Size: #225
    AIR COMPENSATOR Jet Size: #36
    Starter FUEL Jet Size: #40 (non-replaceable, in float bowl)
    Main jet NEEDLE ID: #Y-13
    Main needle JET Size: #3.2mm (the main needle JET is also known as the "power valve" or "emulsion tube").
    Fuel Level in float bowls: 3mm +/- 1mm (.118" +/- .039")
    Idle RPM's: 1,050 rpms

    Oh well..... I'll try to add the pic later. Photobucket isn't cooperating right now.
     
  31. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Off to make dinner and get the little girl ready for soccer practice. I probably won't get back to this until later on tonight after the kids are in bed. Thanks again for all of your help on this so quickly. I really appreciate it. I'll report back my success or lack there of later tonight. Then since I don't like to start the bike too late and I'm on a Midnight work schedule I'll be up late tonight doing other stuff to the bike like installing the ape hangers and possibly the forward controls or might work on the gsxr a bit, so check out my build thread for some updates on other stuff not relating to this issue if you're bored tonight.
     
  32. shnuffy

    shnuffy Member

    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Guelph, Ontario
    I'll be checking it out. Wanna hear the results!
     
  33. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    TA-DA!!!!

    Turns out I DID put the floats in upside down. How the heck do you do that??? hahahahaha

    I really wanted to check it out, so I did a little multitasking and pulled the carbs, flipped the floats, and slapped the carbs back in while was making dinner, getting the little girl ready for soccer and able to pull the carbs, and degreasing myself, so that I could be seen in public.

    I'm so stoked right now. I have fuel getting to the bowls and the beast fired up RIGHT away. The idle was really high, but I was able to adjust it to right around 1k rpms. Next up is to balance, install ape hangers, forward controls, hack some stuff up and move on from there. I can't wait to run this thing down the street, which will hopefully be tomorrow.

    All updates will be moved back to my build thread now that my dumbass mistake has been fixed :D

    Here is the link for those of you that haven't checked it out yet....

    http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... tml#218222
     
  34. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    referring back to my post on the bottom of page 2. This is the diagram I was trying to post up.

    [​IMG]
     
  35. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    *edit* deleted double post
     
  36. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Oh, and I guess I'm not TOTALLY done with this thread. I'll just continue my carb issues in here. When I started it up earlier I was leaking gas out of carb #4. I opened the fuel vavle and listend to the bowls filling up and then it just started spilling out from around the butterfly on #4. At least it's running now, but what should I check on this?
     
  37. seaguy

    seaguy Member

    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Coastal,AL
    If you got the floats set right and there's no pin hole in one then let them almost fill then switch to prime (cut gas to bowls off). Start it then turn the gas back on to run. Cut gas off when you shut down. usually the engine vibrations will get a ditsy set of floats working. You could try to lap the needle to the seat but it's easy to mess up. Sometimes the needle's rubber tip has tiny ringlets you can't see that makes it leak by till they wear in.
     
  38. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    I actually DIDN'T set the float heights. I know I need to at some point though. I've been reading a shit ton of threads with similar issues and I'm thinking that the float is just sticking. While I'm messing around with it tomorrow I'll see if it clears up.
     
  39. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,843
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Massachusetts, Billerica
    You're banging your head into a wall with this.

    The thing to do is REPLACE the Valve and Seat in 4.

    You're just replacing a small part that served you well until now.
    Now, it's failing you.
    You have to be The Godfather and order it whacked!
     
  40. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    I DID replace the valve and seat in ALL of the carbs.
     
  41. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,843
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Massachusetts, Billerica
    Take the Float Unit from No.-4
    Swap it with the one from No.-1

    If No.-1 Floods and No.-4 is OK. ...
    The Float Height Tang is way off and you'll need to remeasure and reset that Floats Height setting.

    If No.-1 is OK and No.-4 still Floods
    You have a Bad Needle-Seat Assy not doing the trick.

    It happens very frequently with Kits that come from the Far East.
    Polish the Float Seat Bore with a rolled-up-tight piece of 2000 Finishing Paper.
    Polish the Bore with Polishing Compound + Q-Tips
    See if the Tip of the Needle Valve is Lop-sided ...
    If it is ...
    Use one of the Old Needles.
     
  42. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Thanks for the tips Rick. I know I didn't mention it, but I DID wet sand with WD40 when I had the carbs torn apart. The slides are in great shape and slide effortlessly. I didn't put new needles in, but will when I install the jet kit, but the stock ones look to be in good shape.

    I'll try your trick of moving the #4 float to a different carb if it continues to do it today when I'm playing around with it.

    thanks again
     
  43. parts

    parts Member

    Messages:
    834
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    prescott valley az
    Tip; for those getting ready for any work for the first time.
    Scratch the parts you remove with a sharp object so you
    know whch side is up/out etc.

    Even with Ricks excellent tutorials I still took this extra step and
    saved a crap load of time from staring at parts trying remember wich way was up :!: :D
     
  44. koolaid5

    koolaid5 Member

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chambersburg, PA
    Yeah, I always mean to take pics as I'm taking shit apart, but pretty much never do. Oh well....I got it all sorted out now.

    I just went out and started the bike up and the leak sorted itself out without my help. I guess the engine vibration got the float to settle or unstick or whatever and it's all good now. SO, I slapped the seat on and took it for the first spin through the development. I think this is going to be a VERY fun bike when I'm done with it. I have the gauges hooked up now to synch the carbs. No more love for this thread.... I'm moving to my build thread now....for REAL this time.

    Thanks guys
     

Share This Page