Paint it black (and a couple questions)

Howdy! I finally get to join the modification club... I started small by just re-painting my muffler, since it had some rusting and just generally didn't look very nice. The exhaust is all dented from the previous owner, but I don't have the cash to replace it right now... so I wanted to spruce it up a bit.

Yesterday I removed my grab bar to attach a sissy bar I got off craigslist. Well, it seemed to line up just fine with my bike (1980 Maxim 650) when I bought it, but it is too damn wide in the turn signal region. So, after trying to bend the sissy bar into submission for an hour.. I gave up and painted my grab bar matte black.

When I reattached the wires and tested the turn signals, they were a little funky. When I flip the right one on it makes a clickity sound and then blinks faster than the other. When I turn the left one on it makes no weird sound and flashes normally. What the f is this about? I'm glad it blinks at all, but I really thought I hooked everything up just fine... Thoughts?

Anyway, here are some pictures.



It appears that my latex gloves left a little powder residue behind on the bar in this one...




(Updated with more pictures)

Rustoleum high temp paint...


After the exhaust paint job but before the grab bar... Sorry for the shitty quality of this one. Was taken with my cell phone.

 

can't help with the electrics as they are my kryptonite but i'm digging the painted grab bar. i'm heading toward an industrial, naked look for my bike and was wondering what to do with the bar.
good luck with lights, i'm sure somebody w/ sense will chime in.

 

at a lost for the lights hows the grounds ? and awsome job on the grab bar

 

The grounds aren't attached to anything... which my husband found quite odd- but I can't tell you a damn thing about electrical myself. I am a spray painter and a web designer... lol.

 

the ground is connected to the light in its self grounds to the bike if freshly painted you may be blocking the ground some causing your troubles

 

I unfortunately don't understand exactly what that means... How would I be blocking it? How do I check that? I checked the lights before completely reattaching everything...

 

Also, I didn't take apart the right headlight, and it's the one with a problem. (I took apart the left one because I was confused as to how to get them off..)

 

the ground for the turn signels are connected to the bikes frame and the frame is the ground if you had the turn signels off when you painted the bike you may have disrupted the ground between the blinker post and the frame with your paint only reason i say that cause i did the same thing a few weeks ago

 

Right... that seems fairly reasonable. Unfortunately unless someone can explain to me exactly where they are/should be grounded so I can check... I will be suffering a weird "tweaker blinker" as I call it.

 

the ground in side the shaft grounding the light to the bike im saying check the holes in the grab bar make sure they are clear of paint small wire brush in side it a couple of times before remounting

 

Why would that matter? The screw for the signals goes all the way into the frame of the bike, where it grounds itself, right?

 

ahhhhhhhh i see your set up a bit diffrent them my own try taking a small peice of wire run it from a ground point on the biketo the base of the light and see if it is a ground issue if it isnt check the relay switch

 

AHA! Relay switch... where is that?

 

Tested with wire- it's not the ground it seems.

 

If its anything like my '82, the relay is under the tank and above and forward of the coils. My signals never seemed to work properly, I swapped in a cheap electronic relay and they're better than ever now. I'm really diggin' the flat black, looks great! I've never really liked the looks of my grab bar don't know why I never thought of painting it black like most of the rest of my bike. On the to do list. Great job!

 

Look in BOTH Light Bulb Sockets for Grease. Clean out.
Disconnect Battery.
Rotate Bulb Socket Spring-loaded Platform down inside Bulb Socket.
Release Platform and withdraw.
LIGHTLY flatten Contacts with Emery Board.
Re-install Platform.
Twist to lock.

Check VALUE of ALL Bulbs is the SAME.

Headlight Bucket.
Open.
Locate Wires from Front Signals
Disconnect Bullet & Barrel Terminals.
Hold with Needle Nosed Pliers.
Twist Medium Wire Wool inside Barrel.
Shine Bullets.

Inspect Connections of Terminals to all leads.
Look for Terminals hanging by a thread.
Use Pliers to "Tighten Barrels for Bullet connection.

 

on the bike there should be a black wire with a double connector
a single connector dark green wire and a brown single connector
one wire from each turn signal goes in the double connector
the other wire goes in either the green or brown connector
if the wrong one blinks swap the green and brown
this is from a different year book so your colors may be different but the idea is the same

 

Here are some photos of what my wires look like... (Dark in the garage so they're a bit blurry.)

What will happen if I switch the wires and that is wrong? Will it completely screw the entire system, or just not work?

 

Do yourself a HUGE favor.
Get rid of all those Taped-up Splices.

Undo the wires.
Follow the wires to their Source.
Note the Color Codes.

Splice-up those wires so you know that POWER is getting through the Splice.

Call these people on the morning and ORDER ... This 12Volt Test Light:

http://www.rjtool.com/circuit-sounder-p ... ore=retail

Sort-out the mess.
Get rid of the sloppy-looking taped-up splices and get a Package of Crimp Connections at an Auto Part Store.

The RED ones are the right size for the bikes wires.

Clean it up and problems go away.

 

It's hard to tell fer-shure, but in that last picture above, I seem to detect two things of interest:

a) the turn signals appear to be the incorrect ones for your bike, as the ones for the 650 Maxim models use a large, "almost-squared" edge and a perfectly "'ol' flat top" lense (looks like the head of Herman Munster, just orange...... ). The lense in the pictures appears to be the gently rounded edged lense that is typically seen on..........

b) XJ700 models. That in and of itself is not a problem, but......and again, the picture is a bit blurry......it appears that there are 3 wires coming from the turn signal into the "spastic 8-year-old-with-ADHD" attempt at wiring.........and if true, that would suggest that those are, indeed, XJ700 blinker sets, but for the front of the bike, rather than the rear, as the XJ700 models used a "running light" system on the front turn signals (so that the turn signals could function as both always-on running lights, as well as flashing turn signals. This was accomplished via two separate "hot" leads, as well as the use of the dual-filament 1157 type bulbs).


I'm thinking that if the above is correct, then perhaps someone has tied two of the hot leads together, or used the incorrect 1156 (single filament) bulb in the signal socket, or ???????????

It might explain why someone had to go to all that splicing efforts, when it would have been easier to "plug-and-play" the turn signals into the original terminals.....all turn signals of this era used the same common bullet terminals on the ends of their wires.

 

Just for the record, me redoing any of the wiring I did is NOT going to magically make it any better. I obviously suck at electrical stuff. So, I'll do some learning and get back on it.

Chacal, you are correct. There are three wires coming FROM the turn signal into the wiring.

 

Actually, it might.........and besides, it's your last best chance to solve what ails you .


The wattage draw of the two different filaments in the 1157 bulbs may account for the issues you are experiencing.....although, strangely, I cannot find what the wattage specs are for the "running light" filament of those 1157 bulbs (the turn signal filament is supposed to be 27W per bulb).....but, it's late, and I'm too lazy to look!

The stock turn signal relay requires a certain amount of current flow in order to get it to activate, since the original signal relays are of the old style thermal-mechanical type. A minimum amount of current must flow thru the relay contacts in order to heat them up; as they heat up, one of the contact arms separates from the other, the circuit is broken (light off), and then, almost immediately, the lack of current thru the now-separated contact arm allows the metal to cool down, and this cooled metal contact arm then snaps back into its original position, re-establishing electrical flow (= turn signal on). This cycle repeats itself constantly.

If there is not enough current flowing thru those contacts within the relay, the contact arm never heats up enough, and the light stays on constantly (since the "off" part of the "flashing" process is created only when the metal contact arm heats up and physically separates itself, thus breaking the circuit and turning the light "off").

This is why LED bulbs won't work with the factory signal relay: not enough current flow to get the contact heated up and thus separated.

Original turn signal relays require a lot of current flowing thru them to heat up the contact arm (so that it separates and creates the flashing process); this is why the stock signals use 27-watt (each) bulbs. A front and rear bulb, 27 watts each, totals 54 watts of electrical flow; that's about 4.5 amps (!) of current flowing thru the relay contacts, enough to get them good and hot and allow them to do their on-off magic......

Bulbs of lesser wattage will not create enough current flow.

The "running lights" filament in an 1157 bulb might not have enough wattage to allow for enough current flow.

If the lead wire to the "running lights" filament was hooked up to the turn signal system, you might not get enough current thru it......

But if both filament lead wires were hooked up to it, there would be more wattage flowing thru it than necessary, causing an ultra-fast flashing rate....

The blue wire in the three-wire XJ700 turn signals is the "running lights" filament hot lead; the dark brown or the dark green wire (depending on whether it's a left or right side signal unit) is the turn signal filament lead wire.

By the way, on all XJ-series bikes, the dark green wire is for the right side flashers; the dark brown wire is for the left side signals. HOWEVER, since you are using front signal units on the rear, the wire lead colors coming out of the signal housings will be reversed, since front signals housings, when installed on the rear of the bike, typically have to "flipped" from their proper left-right orientation (typically, but not always).


Of course, all of the above is based upon your bike having the stock turn signal flasher relay in place, the rather large rectangular black box that is imprinted with a bunch of gibberish, some of which reads:

Nippondenso
FU257CD
12.8V, 27W X 2 + 3.4W
061300-5461
DOT 6944

or something like that.........

And it's located under the gas tank, and under the right side ignition coil.

So, perhaps the wiring for the left blinker is hooked up properly (the non-blue wire from the signal is attached to the dark brown wire from the bike wiring); while on the right side, both the blue and the dark green (or, it might be dark brown) wire from the signal is joined to the dark green wire from the bike wiring......and the solution is to make sure that the blue wire, from the signal housing, is not attached to anything, at all....


Oh, and one other thing: rear-facing "running lights" on a motorcycle are typically not legal in most locales.........which is why XJ700 and XJ1100 models (the only ones that used front "running lights" from the factory) used them only on the front, and not on the rear (the idea being that rear running lights could be confused as brake lights, or distract from the brake light function, or ?????)

 

Wiring can be best understood (for most troubleshooting purposes) as tiny little pipes carry tiny little amounts of water..........and just like a network of pipes, this "water" can branch off into other "pipes" (as long as they physically intersect and tap into each other), or there can be on-off valves that either stop or allow the "water" to continue flowing thru the "pipe" that the valve is connected to, and some of the valves (like a turn signal switch) can be used to either shut off the flow (turn signal switch is not engaged), or it can direct the "water" flow from the single incoming "pipe" into either a right or left "pipe", with each such pipe running to the appropriate turn signal.......

Unlike water, though, electrical flow must always have a final return path, whereby it "meets its maker" (the battery, which is the electrical "pump" in the system).......the electrical "water" cannot just dump out somewhere (that's called a "short" in electrical-speak), it has to be returned (via a grounding wire or "pipe") so that the electricity "flows back" to the negative terminal of the battery.

And yes, I know, the battery is really a "reservoir" rather than a pump, but for Lesson 1, let's leave it at that!

 

Thanks Ken! It was relatively simple to paint. A few areas didn't want to go on as smooth but it wasn't a big deal. It helps that I spray paint a lot anyway, but I just used a stock tip on a rustoleum matte black spray indoor/outdoor can. I really don't like chrome that much, and I definitely don't like flat silver... so it had to go.

 

+1 for a re-do of the splices. Not only for the current prob ( pun
intended), but to avoid a short or loss of contact later on.

Check to make sure you didn't pinch a wire when you put her
back together-easy to miss.

 

Update: The blinkers don't work at all any more. On a ride the right stopped working, so I took them apart again... and now they don't work at all. I'm trying to figure out the problem but the issues I've found and fixed didn't solve the problem!

 

did you change anything first? or did they stop working of their own accord?

 

Use your multi-meter and determine where the voltage is stopping.
You know that it starts from the batt (since you can turn them on
with the key alone) and the gen (once the motor takes over from
the starter).
So look up the wiring diagram and trace the entire circuit from
begining to end. You will soon see where the voltage is stopping,
or a ground short is occuring.
Sounds like your relay may have givin up the goast...but the only way
to know is to test it.

 

After taking off the tank and reconnecting and un-connecting wires, I really think it's a relay problem. I called around the area and found out a factory relay is $124?!?!

Chacal, I emailed you to get some parts a couple days ago but haven't heard back. I'll be emailing you about the relay, too... Are you getting the messages?

They were both working when I left on the ride (aforementioned problems being had) and on my way back home, suddenly they were frozen (on, when signaling) and not blinking at all.

 

Go to Autozone and get an automobile relay for 7 bucks slap that puppy on there problem solved. I used a two prong relay that I bought for my cl350 and it worked. Don't bother getting the factory mechanical relay. Find an electronic relay thats 12v. If you find a 3 prong seethough one get it. That one works for sure and Autozones usually have them. Just about any Electrical relay will work. Search on here for relay Issues some one has a post regarding the relay issue.

 

Antiorder.........yes, I sent you (via e-mail) a repsonse to your inquiry about the tach cables and the tach drive seals (this was the latest inquiry that I got from you)..............just re-sent it a few moments ago, let me know if it shows up.

We should have some good used flash relays available.

NOTE: Since you are running those 3-wire lights (on the back of the bike), I would suggest that you make sure that only the black ground wire from the lights and the dark green (or dark brown wire) are hooked up tot he matching colored wires on the bike harness.....leave the blue wire (from the turn signals) un-connected. If not, that may over-load or burn out the stock flasher relay.

 

Heading to autozone now. Thanks!

 

Be aware that your self-canceller will not work anymore with that style flasher relay.....

 

MY BIKE HAS A SELF CANCELLER?!?!?! Hahaha... obviously it hasn't been working.

 

That happens alot. Mine's unplugged.

 

Is it obvious when it's unplugged?

 

yes. It's right under the tank at the back clipped to the frame. Has a plug right there. I unplugged mine because it was cancelling after one flash.

 

So, what do I need to know here about flasher relays, guys? I went and bought one I thought would work- and my blinkers don't even turn on solid anymore. When I put the stock one back in, they turn on but don't flash.

 

out of curiosity what is the length of your alternator brushes? as well, did you only connect the two wires as chacal said?

 

If you go digging around in you dash panel there is a little glass tube (i wanna say blue wire) with some "feather like" contact points in it (resembles the guts of a relay really) and there is a magnet on the speedo input that makes these contact every time the cable goes around. It sends these off some place to get counted then a signal is send to quit flashing. Mine don't work either and I suspect it would be annoying if it did. I'll turn the blinker off when I want it off.

 

Where do I look at the alternator brushes? (You're talking to a noob here.) And yes, the third wires are NOT connected, never were. What would I connect them to anyway? Haha.

 

your alternator case is above the gearbox and in front of your starter motor. if the alternator brushes are too short, they can lead to the first symptom you had, which was lights just staying on instead on flashing. you'll have to remove the 3 allan bolts to remove the alternator cover.

 

That relay works you just have to figure out what prong goes on what slot.
It most like;y isn't a dirrect fit. Try searching on here. like I said I had a 2 prong relay the first time I plugged it nothing turned on either but I unplugged the two prongs and plugged them the only other way I could without wire mods and it worked. Keep that realy you can make it work.
Like I said search on here theres a guy who posted what letter on the relay goes on what slot in the harness.
or take it back and give a 2 prong relay a shoot it work for me I'll post pics tomorrow so you see how I did it.
As for the self canceler I never used it anyway...

 

Hey check this out...
It looks like a two prong is the way to go.
Much easier than figuring out wiring...
http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=9 ... relay.html

 

OK here's how I did mine...

This is the one I used.

Unplugged.

Plug it here.

That's what it looks like installed.
It should work after that.
Do you want pictures of my signal wiring so you have an Idea of how the lights should be wiried?
I had all the problem youre having with my lights. although the brushes could be worn this is what worked for me. I would do that before checking the brushes. Do any of your other lights act up? Display lights?

 

My blinkers had issues in the headlight bucket where the grounds plug into each other, looked hooked up but connector was loosened and not working, before doing alot of work I would RE check all grounds. Grounds can be a funny thing, and not haha funny.

 

Alright, I've tried 3 relays. One is the exact one in the pictures, the Long Life one with 2 prongs. I also got a clear one with 3 prongs as someone suggested.

Both the 3 prongs did a whole lot of NOTHING. The turn signals didn't turn on at all.

So last night I plugged in the 2 prong. Got nothing. Unplugged and put my non working relay back on. Suddenly things were working again, but sloppy (as before, one was fast and one was slow with the flicking sound) so I plugged in the 2 prong again, differently. Everything worked great! Both blinkers were fast and bright and the front and backs worked.

I redid all the wiring correctly (had a friend show me how) and then turned them back on... now the fronts don't work and both the backs signal when you blink either. One signals really bright and the other not so much, then the other one blinks both at the same brightness.

I rechecked connections, replugged the relay and such... it's still screwy.

This is boggling my mind.

 

Antiorder - print out the diagram for your bike and identify the components. There are 3 pages in all www.xjdiagrams.thundervalleypower.com/
Dazsculpt recently had a blinker problem with all 4 coming on - the ground and supply wires were swapped.

If it doesnt make sense - send me a PM - I am electrical engineer (For my sins!).

 

Good thing your across the pond Schooter wants to punch you in the face.

Did you try unplugging your auto cancel? as I mentioned before mine's unplugged. The reason is it would flash only the left side normally then cancel the right after 1 flash. Unplugged and everything works.

 

I see you've been having a nightmare trying to get your lights blinking.
I didn't read every single post so my questions/suggestions may have been covered.

A ) Have you verified all the sockets actually work (regardless of blinking)
B ) Are they Non-LED?
C ) Do all the bulbs have the same type of socket? (Single 1156 vs. Dual 1157).
If you have a mix and match of socket types check out my post in my signature.