wierd starter sound

he guys sometimes when i try to start my bike the starter turn over the motor, then it kind of slips out of mesh or something and makes a spining sound and doesnt turn the motor over. has any one had this problem, over knows how to fix it ?
thanks

 

I've not had this with an XJ, but I had a very similar problem with my Goldwing. When the ambient temp was pretty low, it wouldn't start at all. The starter would spin as if it wasn't engaging with the flywheel. I searched high and low to find an answer. I even spent $180 on a new starter. Then I found a webiste that explained that these bikes are notorious for doing this if the oil used is to heavy. I switched to lighter oil and the problem vanished. I wonder if you could be having a similar issue.

Just my .02

Greg

 

hmm thats interesting , cause it does seem to happen when the bike is cold, but i mean australia cold like 20C lol. i supose i could try lighter oil

 

20 seems awful cold to me, but then again, I think in degrees F! I think that this could be caused by sludgy oil too. Have you changed it lately?

Greg

 

well i have changed my oil and it did it, but the motor may have slugde in the bottom , i only just got the bike 3 weeks ago. so is the starter not engaging fully ?

 

Brenton, do you have a service manual or have you looked on the web for a parts break down of the starter?
Basically the starter motor drives an idler gear, which drives another gear that has a simple roller clutch assembly attached. The clutch engages another gear to drive a chain to turn the crank.
If your starter spins with out cranking the engine it suggests to me your clutch isn't engaging. If lighter oil seems to make it work it could indicate a dirt/sludge build up on the moving parts of the clutch unit preventing them from moving freely. See if the lighter oil and useage loosens things up?
The manual calls this clutch almost foolproof in operation and does not suffer from rapid wear.

 

Also worth checking battery/electrical problems. Mine did the same thing for a while till I fixed the starter. Don't think enough power was getting to it to engage the clutch. ie not spinning fast enough.

 

yeah its kinda like the starter didnt get pushed in far euff and just free spins while kinda crunching the teeth .

 

20C is like 69F. Not too shabby but definitely not cold enough to create a viscosity issue to my experience. The contaminate issue however gives me pause. Brenton, didn't you change the oil upon receiving the bike? If you saw evidence of sludge at that point I would agree with the hypothisys that the gearing may have cleanliness issues. Nothing a good engine cleaner wouldn't set right. Berrymanns makes a fine product. I'm learning about this Seafoam stuff the forum seems to love (although I have yet to find it, I'll keep trying, I am very interested in seeing this stuff in action). My suggestion would be to pull the starter motor and clean it out, especially the planetary gears, and relubricate it. Do a little corrosion work on the power lines and connections as well as a quick visual of the inside of the port that the starter is inserted. There should be some indicators as to what is going on in there and I would be interested in hearing what you find. It might be that there is a starter motor gear meshing problem (?). Give us some more info when you have it. Regards.

 

Robert;
If they have advance auto parts stores there, they carry seafoam.

 

yeah i changed the oil when i got the bike, then i changed it again after a long ride, the oil that came out was already dirty like i thought it would be. i am yet to find seafoam or a simliar product but when i do ill give it a try. i might take out the starter and have a look at it, if it keeps it up. it did seem to only happen when cold. anyway ill go for a ride 2day and see what happens
cheers brenton

 

the seafoam in Canada may not be the same as the States i work in a shop and have seen on many of are cases of stuff we get brake cleaner carbcleaner ect. not for shippment or sale to canada 8O

 

Brenton
A good call was made by Robert to try a "seafoam or equivilent" to free up that starter apparatus. I don't really like to refer people to miracle products but I had the same trouble w/my xj 750. Ironically, a sales rep for that seafoam stuff happened to be at a parts store in town while I was shopping there and suggested to add some of his stuff to the crank oil and ride to operating temp and then drain while hot. Holy cow did a bunch of gunky snot come out with the oil. The starting problem is 99% gone. Now, I'm not sure I'd advocate regular usage (as the rep also suggested). However, I believe the clutch and related mechanisms cannot be seviced without splitting the case so... maybe mine was a simple $7.00 fix compared to that alternative. good luck Jeff-ski

 

Well Jeff, glad to hear of your success! You can repair most of your clutch right through the side cover. It wouldn't hurt (if you were curious and have a few dollars lying about for a new gasket, or make your own) to crack that clutch case and have a look see. If the gunk is any indication, odds are good your clutch plates are ( or were depending on how well your chemical bath worked, and by the sounds of it, well) probably coated. I would, however, just keep riding it and see how things go before getting that far into it. It is possible that simple neglect was the culprit and you nipped the problem right in the bud. The only concern I have is how much damage the old oil left in the case did to the metal in the motor. Oil, as you all know, is the lubricant for our motors and one of it's jobs is to clean out the various places throughout the motor. These materials tend to be things like dirt, carbon, small metal particals (good Lord, I hope not!) and other such truck. These materials can become acidic over time and if left in an unattended case for too long, will etch the metal that is exposed (crank, connecting rods, shafts, etc...). Not a good thing. This is why it is recommended to store any internal combustion motor with a fresh oil change. I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that your machine is just such a sufferer. Poor thing, your in good, loving hands now. Take an oil change or two and call back later. You should be ok from here on out. Regards!

 

yeah ill have to see if i can find some of this magic seafoam , any ideas if they sell it in Australia ?
cheers brenton

 

You can do a pretty damn good engine flush with transmission fluid. I have first hand experience using the stuff in industrial air compressors and you can eat out of one that was run on it. It's pretty cheap stuff too. Don't ride with it in the engine though.

 

Not a clue. Google it and add Australia to the search logic. Good luck.

 

i dident read through all of thease post but to sum up what i know is that when the starter get to warm the the starter "clutch" wont engadge also can happen if you let off the starter button and push it agin to quick it dosent grab the gear. sorry if that confused you but my 850 midnight spl did it on cold mornings when trying to start it and it dident fire up right away or wen shutting it off and back on when the motor is still to hot to tuch

 

Yikes!! MAC, tranny fluid is about 5 to 7 weight oil, I wouldn't run it in a motor unless there was nothing else left. It has a high detergent package and will clean the dogsnot out of the motor I'll agree but you had better hope you don't spin a main with it! Do NOT rev a motor with this stuff in it!!! I would use it only after I had warmed up the motor in question first and drained the old stuff out. I tried diesel fuel once and boy was that stupid! About smoked the motor, the mains were scored big time!!! Run the tranny fluid only a few minutes at idle as a flush. Safer bet would be Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase. It will work well and a lot safer! Iwasatoad, your starter clutch may be suffering with goo in its internals and a good motor flush might help. I say might because the clutch is up in the case and is not completely bathed in the oil bath of the sump. It may take some time for things to work themselves out. Go gently, you may regret it later! Best advice I can give you mate. Good luck!

 

I wouldn't worry too much. My brother in law saw a highway tractor diesel run for 800 kms on just the Lubriplate assembly grease when an apprentice mechanic installed the main bearings in wrong, blocking off the oil feed ports. In my experience, most people run too heavy an oil if anything. When you consider the heat, shear force between gear teeth and lack of changes that tranny fluid has to cope with, you can see how remarkable this stuff really is. Auto tansmissions have clutch packs in them so I wouldn't worry about slipping plates either. This technique was actually recommended in Motorcyclist magazine back in the 80's, at least once. Cranks have very little stress on them at idle.

 

Here here to that MAC, but the pucker factor is high on this one. Lowest viscosity I can recall is SAE 10 weight. ATF is just below that. Your right about thrust friction on the crank being low at idle but I'm concerned with the ability of the oil pump to create sufficent pressure with such a thin oil. As you are undoubtably aware, most of our top ends have cams that ride on this oil film and then directly on the machined surface of the head pillow blocks. The tricordial(?) oil pump should be able to produce pressure but is it sufficient? Should this pressure be too low, the cams spin on the aluminum of the head and score the bearing surfaces (actually galling but that is splitting hairs) causing unpleasant damage to the surface and creating pressure loss. I'm glad that there is some experience out there, but my own understandings keep me from really trying it out. Iwasatoad, should you try this method and have cause to tear down your motor later, could you post your findings? Another note MAC, Lubriplate is great stuff but I haven't used it in my cycles. I'll have to pull some out sometime and see what it will do for me. Good to hear those stories, they are the best endorsment for any product. You wouldn't be able to pull up that article would you? I heard a few years back that one of the motorcycle magazines went bust. I hope that wasn't the one your referring to. I look forward to hearing back from you. Perhaps, in a while, I'll have the luxury of a spare motor to try this out on. Cheers.

 

Cycle Guide went under first, then Cycle. The first was no big loss, but Cycle was perhaps the most literate of all the bike magazines.

I trust ATF since it was the oil of choice in most industrial rotary screw air compressors for many years, due to its reliability, low price and excellent cleaning abilities.



This is a rotor set out of one (this one has failed due to a lack of oil, not the type). The rotor on the right drives the rotor on the left. There is an enormous amount of sliding friciton, as well as thousands of BTU's of heat to remove. These rotors are probably close to 100lbs apiece and can spin up to several thousand rpm, depending on the design. It also must lubricate the bearings and drive gears. Despite all this, you should be able to get 2000 hrs running out of a fresh charge of ATF. 2000 hrs, by the way, is about the operational lifetime of the average car. ATF has fallen out of fashion in the past few years due to reformulation changes degrading its anti-foaming properties. The compressor companies have also found out there is money to be made in selling their own boutique oil. Sound familiar to anyone?

 

Sure does. 2,000 hours useful life for a car? That sounds a little slim. Did you perhaps forget a zero somewhere or did you get a lousy car? My 240K truck motor has been at it for 20 years, got a front seal leak but keeps ticking. I'm a firm believer in regular preventative maintenance. I don't measure my usage by time passage but I wish I did! Hour meters tend to be a little pricey. I love ATF for my hydraulic jacks and such. Good behaviors for that application. Those rotors look clean as can be (aside from the slight scoring on the visible edge of the rotor). ATF is great stuff for cleaning, no doubt about it. Have you run ATF through your bike yet? What came out of the drain? I would love to hear it. Ought to try this on my old motor for snots and giggles (but not until a replacement has been procured).

 

Hey guys... :roll: I was just trying to get back from lunch, and I had these same symptoms... However, I could tell that the battery was wearing down, because it was spinning the motor ever slower. Eventually, I roll-started it, and it started up first try.

However, I just did an engine flush two days ago... Thinking back, I have heard this noise before, but only when the battery gets low on charge. Is this normal? After the flush, I switched to a full synthetic 10W-40. I was running 20W-50 before.

 

A strong battery is a must for these bikes (come to think of it, does anyone know of one that doesn't?). Your noise should be a thing of the past with a strong battery and that oil change Rich. Should it continue, you may have other issues. I found the seafoam and am currently running half a can to a full tank of 91 octane just to see what comes out the exhaust. I'm not to the point of using it in an oil change but that time will come.

 

Well, the battery is in the mail! Hopefully my bike will continue to run until I get it.

I believe that my bike would really appreciate a good tune, and then I wouldn't have to crank so long to start it up! I bet the battery would be happier then.

 

Get to the tune, you have all you need at hand with common hand tools. The only expense is the purchace or manufacture of sync gages or manometers and a YICS tool if needed. Good tune up should set you back about $35 for oil, plugs, and filters (if you shop it right).

 

Do a search on the net, someone will have a can to order and ship to ya! I have used seafoam regularly in my bikes for a while now. I tell you, it makes a HUGE difference. I won't run a tank of gas or do an oil change without adding Seafoam. It also works in cars, lawnmowers, gas weedeaters, etc. Basically anything with a gas engine.

But this is just my $.02