Clutch death

Hello everyone and thanks for your XJ wisdom!

I'm more or less a newbie when it comes to wrenching on my bike, though I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty. That said, I lack the experience to make a good diagnosis in advance. I've been reading through all the posts about clutch problems that I could find but I'm unsure of the vocabulary.

What does "clutch slipping" mean exactly? Is it just when the bike doesn't immediately respond to a sudden increase in throttle? Here's what happened to me last night: While upshifting under heavy acceleration (ie merging onto the freeway) in the higher gears, the bike suddenly fell "out of gear" into some kind of neutral. I had to physically reshift to put it back in gear. This happened three times in a row.

Does this sound like only the clutch is going, or could there be something even worse than a dying clutch involved? Right now I'm hesitant to do anything at all: if I give it an oil change (using 10w40 semi-synthetic MC oil - though recently topped it up with a different brand of the same weight) then I'll just have to dump it when doing the clutch. If I do the clutch and find that there is some other horrible problem, I'll probably have to dump the bike!

By the way, the bike is a '93 XJ 600 Diversion (seca) with 36,400km on it. I have no mechanical history for this bike. I bought it with 25,000.

Bonus question: any techie out there know if a clutch from the 4BR model (sold in Germany) will work for the slightly different 4DG model (mine- sold in Switzerland)?
Thanks for your insights!

 

Sounds to me that you hit the mistery neutral spot between 3rd and 4th gear. I've found it several times under hard accelerating. Don't worry about that. Your clutch is OK, I have had several Yamahas do this.
Clutch slippage is when you give it throttle and the engine goes but the bike does not. Its still in gear but the clutch is slipping so the bike won't go.
Change your oil, it may help. I don't use synthetic blends in my bikes they seem to make the clutch slip more. That is just my personal preference. I have been running Shell 15w40 H/D diesel oil in all my bikes for many years. The trans gears and clutch love it.
Go ahead and change your oil, and ride. Check the adjustements on the shift linkage and change the pedal height to better suit your riding position.

 

-it doesn't necessarily sound like a clutch problem.

-with that many kliks, I doubt it's the original clutch; if it IS then it may be time. The really only and best way to tell is to tear it down and inspect. There is a published standard for the wear limit (minimum thickness) of the friction plates for your bike; the plain plates and pressure plate can simply be visually inspected and checked for warpage.

-minimum clutch rebuild is friction plates and springs; quite often the other plates can be reused. But you simply have to look.

 

I think like as said, you found a false neutral. Happens to me occasionally when accelerating too hard and not being very precise with my shifts. If it was a clutch slip, the motor would "wow" and all you'd have to do is back out of the throttle for a split second and let it catch up and it would hook up again...no shifting involved.

But as far as your clutch questions go...I found that when I pulled the clutch cover with it on the sidestand, I didn't really lose any oil...it all stayed over in the left side of the motor. But I'm riding an '83 XJ650, yous may have a different case shape or something.

I replaced the friction discs and got some springs with 20% better than stock strength...made a slight difference in lever effort but a huge difference in lockup power...I highly recommend doing that if you do anything to the clutch.

I'm thinking your problem may just be from less than precise shifts when really blasting it, as I said I've done the same, or a slight clutch misadjustment that may be a factor. Make sure you're getting a full release with proper free play, if it's a cable-type clutch (I don't know on yours)

Make sure you stab the shifter quickly and with authority when shifting under hard accel...getting lazy with my foot seems to bring the false neutral with mine, sometimes.

 

My tired left hand disagrees. On the 550, I found no benefit in the "stronger" springs; it increased lever pressure but actually seemed to contribute to the clutch heating up and fading under mild abuse. I get much better results with the stock springs in a stock Yamaha clutch.

A Barnett is a different story, you need their slightly stiffer springs.

Like I said, these results were obtained with a 550, clutch performance in the 650 may be quite different.

 

Stronger springs fixed the clutch slip on my 1100. Under hard throttle it would slip some, even with new friction plates. I don't think 10:30 has any clutch problems, just some adjustments needed to his shifter. The mistery neutral spot shows up durring incomplete shifts.

 

Whoa; 1100 vs. 550, I'm not surprised. Yamaha used basically the same clutch for all the DOHC fours, I think yours has 6 springs vs. 5 (or even 4) in the smaller displacements. With the HP of the 1100 it probably would benefit from stiffer springs, all things equal even with the stock clutch.

I'm currently running a Barnett in my '81 and even with the slightly stiffer springs, it works very well.

The original post is from an XJ600 Diversion owner, I figured his best comparo would be the 550s.

The "notchiness" and false neutrals could be caused by a dragging clutch (not necessarily a worn out one) I agree.

Proper clutch adjustment (and maybe a new or freshly lubed cable) might be the first order of business.

 

I've never had any clutch fade with this one no matter how hard I beat it up...the discs I got were some kind of Kevlar-impregnated friction material but I don't remember the brand (not Barnett though). But I've been very happy with the performance.

 

The Barnett is a Kevlar plate clutch, you probably have a similar product. I'm finding similar results, you can beat the snot out of the Barnett and it won't fade at all.

 

so what was the problem O.O

I am having the same issue, just in first .
I accelerate and 3k-5k it goes into a false neutral, when i back the throttle down it shifts back into gear.

so far suggestions are varied and Im not sure where to start
I just bought the motorcycle and the only thing ive changed is I added a whole quart of 15-30 synthetic <.< that could be my problem right there...

and someone told me could be a shifter fork, another told me could be a gear dog.

now it could be clutch plate ahhhh!

 

If you're saying that the motor speed flares and when you back out of the throttle, the clutch hooks up and syncs up with your motor speed once again, that's clutch slippage, yes.

If it pops out of gear when you upshift and you get a neutral light and you have to back out and shift it back into gear yourself, then it's a shift mechanism or gear issue...or a draggy clutch cable, sloppy shift, etc.

A less vague description of what's actually happening will get you a more meaningful suggestion for what the problem could be...

The way you are wording it is making me confused as to which problem you are having, exactly.

I'm not trying to call you out, just trying to get to what's actually happening with your bike.

 

The Clutches "Slipping", ... such as the Engine not being connected to the Transmission for a moment ... and THEN, re-engaging when the Throttles are rolled-off a bit usually mean:

1. The Clutches are Worn and need to be replaced ... -or-
2. The Clutch is ADJUSTED too tight.

LOSING the Power -- SUDDENLY -- such that the Engine IMMEDIATELY makes higher rpm's and requiring the re-shifting of the Gears to re-engage the Transmission is a symptom of the GEARS slipping. A condition far worse and much more labor intensive to repair.

If the DOGS that connect the rotating Gears have been worn-down from the Bike being raced or shifted improperly, ... they lose their keen, flat mating surfaces and will disengage from each-other under heavy load.

Unlike Clutch Discs and Plates, which can be replaced easily by design, ... the Transmission Gears, if worn down and disengaging, require the TRANSMISSION to be removed and the worn-down Gears replaced.

A repair job that requires the complete dismantling of the Engine to "Split-the-cases" in order to be able to remove and replace the problem Transmission parts.

 

well the Motorcycle has 33,000 miles on it,
sorry about the vague description, but for now that's all the info I have until I take a look.

It happens in first gear only, but when starting off from a stop if the rpms go over a certain speed the transmission slips and my rpms go up, as the rpms slow down the gear/clutch reengages and this all happens only in first

now it has gotten progressively worst, it used to happen only at 5k miles now its happening anywhere between 3k rpm to 5k

 

It sounds like you have a worn out of severely glazed clutch to me....it would probably slip and flare on you in top gear if you gave it hell too, if you weighed what I do, that was the other range mine would slip in when it went bad. WOT on the highway it would slowly start to slip the longer I held it open.

Fortunately these bikes are real easy to put a clutch in...we can probably walk you through that, or get a service manual, which you really need anyway if you don't have one.

 

Try starting off in second gear....and hold the rpms at about 2000 and just drop the clutch, don't let it out slow, just let go of it.

If the clutch grabs as strong as it should, the bike will lurch and stall. If it's slipping, it'll slowly pull the motor revs down as the bike starts to move.

 

You are due for a Clutch.

I'd replace the Drivers, too.
But, if you don't burn them up slipping the Clutch; they might be OK.

 

Ok so i started it, clicked into second gear, revved up to 2000-2500 rpms
dropped the clutch and it didn't even move, well it dived but i wasn't holding the brake or anything, it just stalled

what are the drivers?

 

ok new update, changed the oil and filter, put shell 15-40w, sounds alot better than my thin synthetic

now back to the clutch

it not slipping, its actually jumps out of gear, right into neutral between first and second, my neutral light actually turns on

hey ric i found this searching around a bit, and kinda seems to be my issue
and hopefully I can follow your suggestion

 

ooook fixed it, it was the adjustment on the handlebar, that little wheel was causing all of this

 

Hi everyone and thank you so much for your helpful responses!
(Sorry to have done a runner on you all. Reality came between me and my toolbox.)

So. I guess where I got confused with all this clutch business was in reading all of the descriptions of "clutch slippage" on this site, without really finding a simple explanation of what it was. Does anyone know a good online glossary for technical terms/tools/etc?

Taking some of your advices, I stopped worrying about the clutch and got on with the business of basic maintenance.
First, an oil change helped immensely. But I still got a few unexpected neutrals.
Then, taking a look at the clutch and throttle adjustment I found that the throttle was sticking a bit only when it was fully open - perhaps it had not been closing all the way when shifting. Throttle cable and grip got lubed..
Then, the clutch cable had too much freeplay, so that got taken up and the cable lubed.

Now, even after trying to find them, I haven't been able to induce any more false neutrals. Tomorrow is set up for a full day of Alpine abuse, so if anything is going to happen it will happen then.

If the dogs are only slightly worn, perhaps the gear slipping problem only appears with old oil? Does that make any sense at all?

 

If the cogs aren't sliding into position as easily as they could, then yeah, rounded ones could be more prone to jump out of engagement if they are taking their time sliding and you were only catching the edge or something....so oil could make a difference...it's possible...

Mine shifts notchier the longer the oil goes in it...that's pretty typical of a lotta bikes...

 

describe freeplay, my Xj started to do it again, only in first gear, and sometimes it goes into neutral, and stays in neutral with neutral light on,
sometimes it jumps into second, but as you slow down, it goes back into first, <.< and that wierd when it happens

if i keep my foot (down) on the shifter, it doesnt come out of gear.