Replaced solenoid, but still no start

So, I have "bike not starting" question. What happens: it makes a slight turn over chug, just for a fraction of a second, then proceeds to buzz. I have an audio file, but can't seem to upload it.

Its been getting harder and harder to start, I had been blaming it on the cold, but I never had a problem turning it over once she was warm. Now I wont even get a consistent "chug". Last time it turned over (no start) it was very slow, like the battery was dying, only it wasn't.

I replaced the solenoid and its connecting wires, but the problem is still there. (It sounds like it is coming directly from the solenoid too)

where to go next?

 

Check your charging system and starter. May need new brushes or have a worn out starter motor. Could be an old battery too.

 

starters with worn brushes have been known to have a harder time in the cold then in the warm.

battery connections, battery cables, starter connections. charging system. battery condition. will all have an impact on cranking.

if you have a known good automotive battery. like in your car for instance. you can use jumper cables on the bike to see if the starter spins any better. negative post to any good ground on the bike. positive post to the nut on the starter will also make the starter spin. if you know for sure the battery in the bike is in great shape then use that.

make sure the bike is in neutral first.

using a voltmeter. you can test for drainage across the top of battery. one clip hooked to either battery post. the other clip floats across the top of the battery. any type of dirt acts as a conductor and will have voltage seeping across the top of battery.

maybe a drain on the battery. disconnect ONE battery cable. put a voltmeter between the disconnected battery cable and the battery post. (or use a test light). do you have a reading or does the test light come on?

check your battery cables for voltage drop. on the postivie cable. you put the positive voltmeter at the battery. negative goes to solenoid. what's the reading? the number will be under should be very low(around .1 volts). check the cable from the solenoid to starter. it's fairly short and thin so it shouldn't read more then .5 volts. (motor will have to be cranking to get a reading.) positve meter at the solenoid. negative meter at the starter terminal. then do the ground cable. motor cranking. postive meter at the ground connection. negative meter at the negative battery post. should be less then .3 volts.

on a car the voltage drop should be no more then .8 volts on the positive and no more then .5 volts on the negative. (motor cranking) anything close to or higher indicates cable having a problem. (corrosion or breaking wires inside the cable).

the battery reads 12.6 volts but theres always a voltage drop through the cables. meaning less volts actually hits the starter. good starter, good cables, and good battery generally won't have that big of a drop though. usually only .5 volts between the 2 cables.

 

You need to clean your starter motor. I had the exact same problem with mine. I fixed mine by spraying wd40 into the electrical part of it without pulling it all apart. I've been told that this is not the smartest thing to do though - apparently it could cause shorts and possibly catch fire or explode...anyway, my point is - clean your starter!

 

Starter brushes create dust they wear guess what this dust does it conducts electricity.

 

starter was beyond repair. replaced. New connections on everything. Battery is good.

After a stuck float problem the bike chugged, but didn't turn over. Went to bump start and wouldn't even get a little bit of a turn over.

Could charging system contribute to this problem absolutely 0 crank? I thought that it could only effect the bike when running, or in draining the battery.

 

make sure it is still capable of rotation pull the cover off the left side of the engine and turn with a 19 mm open end wrench. sorry if im misinterpreting your post but you say it wont even turn over on a fresh batt and starter. it makes a chug noise? not starter clutch noise?

 

just "buzzes" around the solenoid. Starter wont turn unless I short the solenoid. Both are new.

Will not bump start either.

 

-don't sweat the bump-start part, unless everything's pretty much 100% bump-starting probably won't work.

-the fact that the starter turns over fine when you short the solenoid is the clue to the problem.

Question: Where did the new solenoid come from?

Your problem is likely going to be switch/button or ground strap related. When you hit the starter button, the circuit, for whatever reason, won't carry enough current to fully activate the solenoid (hence the buzzing.)

The first thing I would do would be to check the ground strap(s) between the engine and frame; then wring out the starter circuit wiring and connnectors, including the button switch itself.

Your switch pod may not be making a good ground to the bar, or the bar might not be making a good ground to the rest of the bike, but I suspect it's more of an engine-to-frame ground issue.

 

take a wire from the positive battery and touch the connection on the solenoid. as if your supplying power to the solenoid instead of using the switch.

see what happens. if it works then it's the switch. if not then like the above posts say. engine to frame ground connection.

what does the voltage read on the battery with key off.
what does the voltage read when cranking.
you say the battery is good. but good batteries have been known to test faulty.

 

Have you done this to an XJ solenoid?? this would work on a Ford.

For reference, a fine How-To :

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1 ... vious.html

 

yes time i've done it on an xj solenoid.

it works on any solenoid. some just may be tricky to do.

i should have posted somewhere in the switch device though. such as in that diagram you posted.

 

Definitely problems with the ground. I got a resistance reading between the negative battery terminal and the engine case. It is going to be hard to get that bolt loose that is holds the ground cable to the engine case. There is almost 0 maneuvering room and I am not really wanting to take the whole air box/battery holding case out. Going to have to make a trip to the hardware store. Anyone dealt with this before?

 

is there corrosion on the negative cable??

take your voltmeter and do a voltage drop test. negative test cable goes on the negative post of battery. positive test cable goes on the other end of the cable.

voltmeter on the low end of volt scale. crank the bike over. youi should have a reading of about .3 volts or less while cranking the motor. that will tell you if the cable is bad.

naturally this is a 2 person job.

the cable DOESN'T have to be remounted in the same spot. it can go anywhere on the motor for a ground connection. so if it's not an easy spot to get to. just cut the cable off. and install a new cable somewhere that's easy to get to.

 

I installed aftermarket handlebars on my bike. They were black. Didn't realize the starter switch is ground through the bars. Only started by arcing the solenoid. After alot of headaches a freind realized it was a ground problem caused by the coating on the bars.

 

I remember another symptom when all these electric problems came to a head. It was a very foggy, cold day. Aside from normal starting problems the bike just died on me at a stop. A 20 minute wait it restarted and got me home...that was the last successful ride...This means alternator/regulator problem right?

Here's an update to my work thus far:
Starter, solenoid, starter and associated wires are new from Chacal. Battery is less than 6 mo and fully charged.

I cleaned my grounds, replaced the negative battery cable. The bike now turns the starter motor with the start button. However, it doesn't turn over. It doesn't even sound like it's "chugging"


The alternator and it's brushes looked OK at inspection, however the wiring does not. It is melted at the white connector and I wasn't able to get the correct ohms readings. I am going to replace these wires. Hopefully the alternator/regulator isn't the problem and it is just faulty connections.

I also didn't get the correct readings from the spark plug wires, (which are corroded) although the resistance from the coils was ok. I am going to replace the wires and caps.

I took the plugs out from the engine, grounded to the head and with the lights off saw a faint blue spark...should it be stronger?

 

So if I'm reading you right, the starter is spinning; is it spinning the motor or just spinning?

If the motor is spinning, it's "turning over" just not firing.

From the sound of things ("melted at the white connector") you still have some work to do.

But--

Just for gits and shiggles, put in a brand new set of properly gapped plugs; be sure the battery is fully charged, and give it a shot.

 

Are you getting compression? How do you know the engine isn't turning over?
If you aren't turning an engine, your starter clutch or starter chain are suspects. If the engine turns over (rotates), you have to check the spark. No spark= more trouble shooting of the ignition system. Got a spark? Make sure it is timed correctly (rarely needs attention but it does happen).
The melted connector is the alternator output and the melted connector is a very common issue. It is caused by too much current demand on the alternator (they are a wimpy 19 amps anyway). Best bet is to repair the wires (they can be plugged back together in any order) and clean corrosion off of all of your electrical system connections. Then cover the fresh connections with dielectric grease to prevent further issues.

 

Total re-haul of the electrical system over the past few weeks. The melted connectors are fixed, charging and starter system are testing ok. Even pulled the plugs out to look at spark.

I tried to push start again and got nothing. it would just make a 'vvvv' sound. It doesn't sound like the engine is rotating, with either electrical or push start. Do I really need to get into the starter clutch and chain like Robert said? Anything else this might be?

 

Been doing some reading and now I'm contemplating splitting the crank case. The starter is spinning, It's sparking, but it's not doing anything to the engine. Fuel is moving through the carbs as well. (they were recently cleaned).

Timing was mentioned earlier. Will this cause my problem, or am I destined to split the case?

 

You say fuel is moving through the carbs. By this do you mean the bowls are getting fuel or that you are seeing fuel on the plugs? When you try to bump start the bike what gear do you use? I usually do it in second. You should feel some resistance once you release the clutch. If I were you, I would remove the valve cover and watch to see if the cams turn when you turn over the motor. If they do, then the crank is turning. If you pull the plugs and turn over the motor do you feel a puff of air come from the plug holes? If you do then the crank is spinning. Plenty of things to check before considering to split the cases. Have you adjusted the valves? When you cleaned the carbs did you go through all the steps? There are some good threads on here for that. Go over them just to make sure you didn't miss a step. How old is the fuel in the tank? Old fuel can make it very difficult to get a bike started. Are all the safety switches functioning properly? Check, check and recheck before you split those cases.

 

sorry but if your getting spark the engine is most def turning over right?! when i run into these problems heres what i do, leave the bike alone for a day come out aply fullchoke and try starting it, dont touch the throttle till your common sence tells you its time. if that doesnt work guess what you gotta find a bigger hill to roll down and do it in second gear cause there will be less tire slip that way. one of my fav ways to get some speed is to grab hold of the misses car and get to about 30mph and let her rip. you could just be flooding the carbs with fuel. the trick might not work the first time but keep at it and it should fire up. it worked for me!!!

 

We have a disaster of terminology here.

You keep saying "it's sparking" but then you say "the motor isn't turning over." It won't spark if it isn't spinning.

If you mean "the motor is spinning but it's not firing" then that's different from "not turning over."

So: remove LH "YICS" cover (on left side of crankshaft.) 4 big screws.

Then answer the following:

Does the STARTER spin, or make spinning noises when you try to start the bike?

Does the motor actually rotate via the efforts of the starter? (Watch the end of the crank you just uncovered.)

Answer those, then we'll get on to the next step. If the motor turns via the starter there's no need to go splitting the cases.

 

Just did what you said bigfitz.

The starter spins.

I watched the end of the crank and it does spin.

This would mean the problem is that it is not "firing"? or do I need to check other things before I come to that conclusion?

 

Correct. When we say the motor is "turning over" we mean that it's cranking via the starter. That term is often misapplied.

Either it's not firing (no spark) or it's not starting (even with spark.)

But is IS "turning over." Which means you DO NOT have a starter clutch issue; no need to worry about splitting the cases, etc.

Have you given it a quick shot of starting fluid to see if it pops for a sec?

New plugs? Fully charged battery?

Will it occasionally "try" to fire just as you release the button?

Here's the deal: These bikes can have enough "oomph" in their battery to spin the motor quite vigorously, but not enough "juice" left to actually fire the ignition system. I wouldn't have believed this if I hadn't experienced it for myself, and more than once. (It doesn't work like any car I ever worked on.) If it fires once or twice just as you release the button, then this is your problem.

So lets start there (new plugs, fully charged battery) and see what happens. Then give it a shot of starting fluid and see what happens. If you get "fire" for a few revolutions with starting fluid, you have a fuel delivery, not ignition, issue.

All of that aside, if it's turning the motor with the starter, don't worry about splitting the cases. Problem is elsewhere.

 

I'd suggest doing a compression test next

 

Double checked gap on new plugs: ok.

Sprayed a tiny bit of starter fluid in each cylinder and got a pop. fired for maybe 2 seconds then died.
Push start to avail. It won't fire on the push start.

I Am going to recharge the battery and try again in an hour.

It will not. The sound it made right after i put in the starter fluid I have not herd since it was running.

 

If it fires with starting fluid but not on its own then it's fuel not ignition related.

These things can be a bit of a bear to push start when everything is 100%, don't sweat that detail.

Have we discussed draining the float bowls?

 

We have not talked about draining the float bowls. What would that do?

I was going to do a compression check tomorrow. Could valves be the culprit?

My carbs were just cleaned and had new everything put in probably less than 2,000 miles ago. I don't think a fuel problem is b/c they are not cleaned/ clogged.

I just pulled them off a few weeks ago to check a stuck float. That was actually the last time the bike was running, although not for very long b/c gas was coming out of the breather hose, thus me pulling the carbs.

Another piece of info that might be helpful: the gas in the tank is new and I can see gas moving through the in line filter I have, so fuel is definitely going into the carbs, after that, I guess is the problem.

 

just becuase fuel is flowing TOO the carbs don't mean that fuel is getting INTO the carbs. you have fuel flowing through the filter. and you say it pops with starting fluid.

starting fluid is much more advanced these days in that you can run a motor now without all the knocking that starting fluid once did. it's ok to run with starting fluid. i've seen mechanics do it all the time when trying to diagnose wether the engine is getting fuel.

i do it all the time on my ford. saves me wear and tear on the starter motor waiting for gas to flow into the carb again after sitting for more then a month.

you don' thave to keep a constant squirt though. but you can you squirt enough in to actually make it run for a second or two. if it runs then your not getting gas. if it don't run then you;ve probably got some spark issues.

you said it popped which could mean your getting spark but not consistently.

 

Another piece of info that would have been REALLY GOOD to have known, like 3 months ago, would have been "I just pulled them off a few weeks ago to check a stuck float. That was actually the last time the bike was running, although not for very long b/c gas was coming out of the breather hose."

The thread started with solenoid/starter issues, and you never told us you'd had the carbs off in the interim.

Now I have a genuine, serious question, and I'm not being sarcastic:

DO YOU WANT THIS BIKE TO RUN, AND RUN RIGHT?

IN ORDER, no shortcuts and no skipping steps:

-check and adjust valve clearances.
-compression test (for peace of mind after valve adjust.)
-carbs CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN; pass "clunk" test; enrichment wells clear. Go through the recommended carb service sequence in the book.
-float levels checked using gas and the clear tube method.
-bench sync, idle mixture screws 2.5 turns out to start.

Then the bike should fire up, at which point you will need to do a runnng vacuum sync.

One more question, and I hate to ask, but I gotta: MODS? Do you have a stock airbox, or ??? How about the exhaust system?

 

***slaps forehead***

This thread is giving me a headache.

When you say you can "see the fuel flowing through the filter", you mean that you can see it there, right? It shouldn't actually be flowing that much unless the bike is running.

I hope you changed the oil to get rid of all that fuel contamination.

 

This thread can be a testimonial to two things. 1: my novice . 2: the condition of my bike.

When the carbs were cleaned maybe 6 months ago the floats were measured the "wet" method. I did not know they needed to be synced every time they were removed. I just pulled them off, unscrewed the floatbowls, ensured the floats were moving then re-assembled. The only other thing I touched was the brass cylinder to make sure it still clunked. (It did).

Looks like I may have fuel in the crankcase again. I definitely changed the oil when it happened the last time and will take another look and make sure the gas and oil are in their respected places

The start of the thread was electrical/starting related and that was a problem. My symptoms were with the starting system and it seems like the starting system is probably working ok now. I know this bike has been used and abused, so it doesn't surprise me to have had a fuel and electrical problem at the same time.

I have not taken shortcuts with this bike before and don't intend to, although it obviously would have been helpful if I said the bit about the carbs earlier. I swear there is nothing more to say. No pods/mods, weird add-ons, parts that came from other bikes or other funny business.

I will follow your to-do list Bigfitz. Thanks for your patience and everyone else's help! Will give an update when I'm done.

 

Sometimes when you take the carbs off, it takes a bit of cranking to get them to start again. Make sure you have new plugs, and keep a crankin'. Give your starter a break every 10 sec or so. Eventually, it may start.

 

No worries. Remember, even a well-tuned and reliable XJ (like my '81) can be an SOB to start if the battery is even a bit low. This gets 100X worse if the carbs are out of adjustment.

Also important to remember is that the actual fine-tuning adjustments between sync'ed and not are just that, fine. Any time you wrestle the rack off and on, you will knock your adjustments out a little bit; at least that's been my experience.

The other thing I keep mentioning (and trust me I don't own any stock in NGK) is brand new plugs for the initial fire-up. After years and years of doing this, I still can't quite understand this one. My Norton is a kick-start 828cc twin. It can be a ringtailed BEEOTCH to try to start in the spring UNLESS I simply install a BRAND NEW set of plugs. Then it usually fires on the second kick. Get it running, warm it up a couple of times; and after a couple rides I can put the "I don't really want to start right now" plugs back in and it will RUN FINE. I've had the same experiences with my XJs; it's just not logical but it's consistent.

My "spring wake up/first start" procedure is this:

Open drain screws, put petcock on PRI until what comes out looks like gasoline (LOTS of shop towels stuffed under carbs) petcock back to ON (off) to close screws, put back on PRI until bike is running.

Fit BRAND NEW plugs.

Reinstall FULLY CHARGED battery, just pulled off tender.

"Choke" on full and start the bike.

Mine usually fire after only a few cranks; the '81 can take a bit more (27K motor vs. 10K motor.) Run the starter in short (5 "cranks" or so) bursts, so you don't cook it or run the battery down.

Try to start ANY of them the first time with anything other than BRAND NEW plugs is nothing but an exercise in frustration; yet the "old" (sometimes very few-K miles on them) plugs will usually work fine once the bike is "up."

I think it's magic.