Replaced solenoid, but still no start

You say fuel is moving through the carbs. By this do you mean the bowls are getting fuel or that you are seeing fuel on the plugs? When you try to bump start the bike what gear do you use? I usually do it in second. You should feel some resistance once you release the clutch. If I were you, I would remove the valve cover and watch to see if the cams turn when you turn over the motor. If they do, then the crank is turning. If you pull the plugs and turn over the motor do you feel a puff of air come from the plug holes? If you do then the crank is spinning. Plenty of things to check before considering to split the cases. Have you adjusted the valves? When you cleaned the carbs did you go through all the steps? There are some good threads on here for that. Go over them just to make sure you didn't miss a step. How old is the fuel in the tank? Old fuel can make it very difficult to get a bike started. Are all the safety switches functioning properly? Check, check and recheck before you split those cases.

 

sorry but if your getting spark the engine is most def turning over right?! when i run into these problems heres what i do, leave the bike alone for a day come out aply fullchoke and try starting it, dont touch the throttle till your common sence tells you its time. if that doesnt work guess what you gotta find a bigger hill to roll down and do it in second gear cause there will be less tire slip that way. one of my fav ways to get some speed is to grab hold of the misses car and get to about 30mph and let her rip. you could just be flooding the carbs with fuel. the trick might not work the first time but keep at it and it should fire up. it worked for me!!!

 

We have a disaster of terminology here.

You keep saying "it's sparking" but then you say "the motor isn't turning over." It won't spark if it isn't spinning.

If you mean "the motor is spinning but it's not firing" then that's different from "not turning over."

So: remove LH "YICS" cover (on left side of crankshaft.) 4 big screws.

Then answer the following:

Does the STARTER spin, or make spinning noises when you try to start the bike?

Does the motor actually rotate via the efforts of the starter? (Watch the end of the crank you just uncovered.)

Answer those, then we'll get on to the next step. If the motor turns via the starter there's no need to go splitting the cases.

 

Just did what you said bigfitz.

The starter spins.

I watched the end of the crank and it does spin.

This would mean the problem is that it is not "firing"? or do I need to check other things before I come to that conclusion?

 

Correct. When we say the motor is "turning over" we mean that it's cranking via the starter. That term is often misapplied.

Either it's not firing (no spark) or it's not starting (even with spark.)

But is IS "turning over." Which means you DO NOT have a starter clutch issue; no need to worry about splitting the cases, etc.

Have you given it a quick shot of starting fluid to see if it pops for a sec?

New plugs? Fully charged battery?

Will it occasionally "try" to fire just as you release the button?

Here's the deal: These bikes can have enough "oomph" in their battery to spin the motor quite vigorously, but not enough "juice" left to actually fire the ignition system. I wouldn't have believed this if I hadn't experienced it for myself, and more than once. (It doesn't work like any car I ever worked on.) If it fires once or twice just as you release the button, then this is your problem.

So lets start there (new plugs, fully charged battery) and see what happens. Then give it a shot of starting fluid and see what happens. If you get "fire" for a few revolutions with starting fluid, you have a fuel delivery, not ignition, issue.

All of that aside, if it's turning the motor with the starter, don't worry about splitting the cases. Problem is elsewhere.

 

I'd suggest doing a compression test next

 

Double checked gap on new plugs: ok.

Sprayed a tiny bit of starter fluid in each cylinder and got a pop. fired for maybe 2 seconds then died.
Push start to avail. It won't fire on the push start.

I Am going to recharge the battery and try again in an hour.

It will not. The sound it made right after i put in the starter fluid I have not herd since it was running.

 

If it fires with starting fluid but not on its own then it's fuel not ignition related.

These things can be a bit of a bear to push start when everything is 100%, don't sweat that detail.

Have we discussed draining the float bowls?

 

We have not talked about draining the float bowls. What would that do?

I was going to do a compression check tomorrow. Could valves be the culprit?

My carbs were just cleaned and had new everything put in probably less than 2,000 miles ago. I don't think a fuel problem is b/c they are not cleaned/ clogged.

I just pulled them off a few weeks ago to check a stuck float. That was actually the last time the bike was running, although not for very long b/c gas was coming out of the breather hose, thus me pulling the carbs.

Another piece of info that might be helpful: the gas in the tank is new and I can see gas moving through the in line filter I have, so fuel is definitely going into the carbs, after that, I guess is the problem.

 

just becuase fuel is flowing TOO the carbs don't mean that fuel is getting INTO the carbs. you have fuel flowing through the filter. and you say it pops with starting fluid.

starting fluid is much more advanced these days in that you can run a motor now without all the knocking that starting fluid once did. it's ok to run with starting fluid. i've seen mechanics do it all the time when trying to diagnose wether the engine is getting fuel.

i do it all the time on my ford. saves me wear and tear on the starter motor waiting for gas to flow into the carb again after sitting for more then a month.

you don' thave to keep a constant squirt though. but you can you squirt enough in to actually make it run for a second or two. if it runs then your not getting gas. if it don't run then you;ve probably got some spark issues.

you said it popped which could mean your getting spark but not consistently.

 

Another piece of info that would have been REALLY GOOD to have known, like 3 months ago, would have been "I just pulled them off a few weeks ago to check a stuck float. That was actually the last time the bike was running, although not for very long b/c gas was coming out of the breather hose."

The thread started with solenoid/starter issues, and you never told us you'd had the carbs off in the interim.

Now I have a genuine, serious question, and I'm not being sarcastic:

DO YOU WANT THIS BIKE TO RUN, AND RUN RIGHT?

IN ORDER, no shortcuts and no skipping steps:

-check and adjust valve clearances.
-compression test (for peace of mind after valve adjust.)
-carbs CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN; pass "clunk" test; enrichment wells clear. Go through the recommended carb service sequence in the book.
-float levels checked using gas and the clear tube method.
-bench sync, idle mixture screws 2.5 turns out to start.

Then the bike should fire up, at which point you will need to do a runnng vacuum sync.

One more question, and I hate to ask, but I gotta: MODS? Do you have a stock airbox, or ??? How about the exhaust system?

 

***slaps forehead***

This thread is giving me a headache.

When you say you can "see the fuel flowing through the filter", you mean that you can see it there, right? It shouldn't actually be flowing that much unless the bike is running.

I hope you changed the oil to get rid of all that fuel contamination.

 

This thread can be a testimonial to two things. 1: my novice . 2: the condition of my bike.

When the carbs were cleaned maybe 6 months ago the floats were measured the "wet" method. I did not know they needed to be synced every time they were removed. I just pulled them off, unscrewed the floatbowls, ensured the floats were moving then re-assembled. The only other thing I touched was the brass cylinder to make sure it still clunked. (It did).

Looks like I may have fuel in the crankcase again. I definitely changed the oil when it happened the last time and will take another look and make sure the gas and oil are in their respected places

The start of the thread was electrical/starting related and that was a problem. My symptoms were with the starting system and it seems like the starting system is probably working ok now. I know this bike has been used and abused, so it doesn't surprise me to have had a fuel and electrical problem at the same time.

I have not taken shortcuts with this bike before and don't intend to, although it obviously would have been helpful if I said the bit about the carbs earlier. I swear there is nothing more to say. No pods/mods, weird add-ons, parts that came from other bikes or other funny business.

I will follow your to-do list Bigfitz. Thanks for your patience and everyone else's help! Will give an update when I'm done.

 

Sometimes when you take the carbs off, it takes a bit of cranking to get them to start again. Make sure you have new plugs, and keep a crankin'. Give your starter a break every 10 sec or so. Eventually, it may start.

 

No worries. Remember, even a well-tuned and reliable XJ (like my '81) can be an SOB to start if the battery is even a bit low. This gets 100X worse if the carbs are out of adjustment.

Also important to remember is that the actual fine-tuning adjustments between sync'ed and not are just that, fine. Any time you wrestle the rack off and on, you will knock your adjustments out a little bit; at least that's been my experience.

The other thing I keep mentioning (and trust me I don't own any stock in NGK) is brand new plugs for the initial fire-up. After years and years of doing this, I still can't quite understand this one. My Norton is a kick-start 828cc twin. It can be a ringtailed BEEOTCH to try to start in the spring UNLESS I simply install a BRAND NEW set of plugs. Then it usually fires on the second kick. Get it running, warm it up a couple of times; and after a couple rides I can put the "I don't really want to start right now" plugs back in and it will RUN FINE. I've had the same experiences with my XJs; it's just not logical but it's consistent.

My "spring wake up/first start" procedure is this:

Open drain screws, put petcock on PRI until what comes out looks like gasoline (LOTS of shop towels stuffed under carbs) petcock back to ON (off) to close screws, put back on PRI until bike is running.

Fit BRAND NEW plugs.

Reinstall FULLY CHARGED battery, just pulled off tender.

"Choke" on full and start the bike.

Mine usually fire after only a few cranks; the '81 can take a bit more (27K motor vs. 10K motor.) Run the starter in short (5 "cranks" or so) bursts, so you don't cook it or run the battery down.

Try to start ANY of them the first time with anything other than BRAND NEW plugs is nothing but an exercise in frustration; yet the "old" (sometimes very few-K miles on them) plugs will usually work fine once the bike is "up."

I think it's magic.