Starter Question

Are you suppose to weld the copper wire onto the plate to replace the brushes? I tried soldering to no avail.

I cleaned the copper ring within the starter, but was forced to keep the old brushes in 'cause I don't know how to put the new ones on. The current brushes are about 9 mm +- .5 mm.

There's sputtering out of the exhaust pipes while I press the start button. Do my symptoms sound like it's the brushes that are causing me grief?

 

Which XJ are you working on? 650 or 750, I do believe they have a similar sterter.
Post a pic of the starter to show us. The negative ( ground ) brush is either bolted or factory welded to the brush plate, the + lead is bolted through the endbell of the starter casing and connects to the starter relay.
Sputtering out the exhaust would not be a symptom of a failing starter. Carb or fuel trouble would top my list of things to check, ignition next. Have you done any work to the bike latley that might have caused your troubles?

 

Actually, I was using this starter for both bikes. Both were starting up a couple weeks ago. My focus is going to be on the 650 since it's in the best condition.

I've checked the float levels and they seem to be fine. I recently took the carbs for both bikes to my cousins shop to use his air compressor.

Compression check showed 110,110,115,115 (I've got a major air leak from bad donuts, awaiting replacements). Load tested my battery, check. Changed the oil with Robert late last year.

I tried measuring the resistance on my ignition coils with a multimeter like it shows in the Hayne's manual, and I'm getting nothing.

I'm going to look for my camera to pc cord to upload some pics.

 

Oh, yeah. And I switched the shims, and the clearances are within specs for the 650. I can't get the side cover off of the 750 to check the clearances even with an impact driver.

 

Sounds like you have some ignition issues. Have you verified that you have spark at the plugs?
How is that fuse block? They have caused many headaches around here.
Check your coils again with a meter, verify you have the meter on the right ohm range when reading. It will be a different range when reading the primary or secondary side of the coils.

 

Brushes are at limit at 8.5 mm. When checking compression throttle and slides wide open? Checked valves yet? Not likely both coils died at same time dont know what the Haynes manual shows as a check for coils but to check the coils you need to unplug them from wire harness to check primary and remove the plug caps to check secondary then check each cap itself.

 

I changed the range to all various settings when I was testing it before, even checked resistors I have for school to verify that the meter is working correctly.

I stick the probes inside the rubber, right? I was sticking them all over the place and read nothing.

 

Ah, I see. I didn't take the coils off the bike when checking them.

@mlew - Fuse box is fine. I replaced the stock one with Chacal's.

 

I just checked a set of brushes on a starter i pulled down the other day it was pulling to much juice from the battery anyhow measured center of bush to center of rounded section where it rides on the armature (10mm) and even though it is above the limit in the book the wires in the brushes were starting to hold the brush off the armature making it ark so maybe my brushes are not stock yamaha but they are longer than the limit in the book but are defiantly worn out beyond use.

 

You're not going to solve anything at this rate.

You have to follow some logical troubleshooting steps; you're jumping from starter brushes to carbs; it "just don't add up" to paraphrase my avatar.

In order: Get the starter sorted, so it spins the motor reliably. Make sure your battery is fully charged, and check for spark when you spin the motor.

If you have spark, then a STEP BY STEP carb service is in order.

I don't quite understand this: "Compression check showed 110,110,115,115 (I've got a major air leak from bad donuts, awaiting replacements.")

What "donuts" are leaking that you think is lowering your compression?

Remember the basics: Air, fuel, spark. Need the proper combination of all 3 to make a motor run.

 

I was just posting what I had done previously to maybe help diagnosing my problem, Bigfitz. And about the donuts, they're the valve cover pressure washers. The bike would be fuming out steam. I thought it was from overheating at first.

Here's the results from the resistance check.

Coil 2-3 (red w/ white stripe & gray wire)

Primary - 3.1 ohms
Secondary w/o caps: 11.34k ohms
Caps: 4.4k ohms, 5.36k ohms

Coil 1-3 ((red w/ white stripe & orange wire)

Primary - 3.1 ohms
Secondary w/o caps: 11.59k ohms
Caps: 4.35k ohms, 5.03k ohms

They all look to be within spec according to Chacal's listing except the primaries. I'm using the $5 multimeter from Harbor Freight, btw.

 

I've got an elementary question. I know that coil 1-4 goes on the left side and that 2-3 go on the right, but I forgot to take note on which cap goes to which spark plug, and I'm hesitant to go off of what the 750 has set up. Do caps 1 & 2 go on the left side and caps 3 & 4 go on the right?

 

Cylinders are numbered 1-2-3-4 from left to right as you sit on the bike.

Each coil fires both of its wires every time it fires, one is a "wasted" spark.

The valve cover donuts have absolutely nothing to do with your compression numbers.

You could run a compression test with the valve cover off and it wouldn't change anything, compression-wise. If "steam" is fuming out of the valve cover donuts it's either excessive blowby or trapped moisture trying to escape.

 

Okay. I was going off your valve clearance tutorial where you said

My bike was racing once in a while, and was told it was doing so because of a leak. My current donuts are in pretty bad shape and the P.O. was using the pressure washers with gasket maker to get rid of the air leak.

p.s. I thought fixing the air leak would help with compression, but I guess not.

 

Ahh, ok. Nope, the two are completely unrelated.

The kind of leak I was referring to in the valve adjustment article would be an oil leak from the cover. The "air" that's inside the valve cover is only from crankcase ventilation; it has nothing to do with compression (well, directly anyway) and also isn't related in any way to the intake air stream through the carbs. A leak in the intake tract could be a cause of racing; but it also would be unaffected by a leaky valve cover.

The only thing bad donuts will cause is the valve cover gasket to piddle oil here and there, which runs down the motor and makes you think things are worse than they are. It's not a place that you'll get an air leak that affects how the motor runs.

An air leak that will affect how the motor runs would be a manifold leak, or manifold-to-carb leak, or bad throttle shaft seals, or a loose airbox-to-carb boot.

But again, none of those things will directly affect your compression test results. The only "adjustment" you can make that will directly affect compression is adjusting the valves; and all you can do there is get them in spec. (Which you've done?)

The other things should be attended to; but they won't affect compression.

 

Valve clearances are done, compression is good, intake boots are new, carbs are clean but we're not sure about the shaft seals. Bargomer, you need to get the 1-4/2-3 setup correctly and then check spark. Your primary resistances are close enough given the accuracy of that cheap meter. If you place the spark plugs on the valve cover to ground them, you should be able to watch the spark dance. All of them should spark and the color should be blue/white. Any trace of orange is not good.
BTW, I've got a dead starter here that I'm needing to rebuild if you want to go over yours. I HIGHLY recommed purchasing the entire brush plate since connecting the one lead is darn near impossible. I'll try to fix yours if you like, I've got a 300/500 watt soldering iron that I guarantee will work. This is contingent on the brush braids not being badly wicked. If they can't flex, they will break and you are stuck.

 

Good to see you back on the forums, Robert. I've got a buddy near by that says he'll be able to solder/weld the copper onto my plate.

I just tested for spark and everything seems to be fine. I didn't see any orange. Just blue and some white/light blue. I can't really tell the difference.

I suppose next on my list is to check the pick-up coils, eh?

 

I was checking out my tci box right now and I noticed that the number 3 pin according to the this link (http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=28349/) is missing. Is it suppose to be like that for this tci unit? Mine is Type TID14-02 4H7-10. Also, on the female side of the plug, there's a black with white lining wire that gets connected to nothing (where 3 is suppose to be).

 

Alright, I got the new brushes soldered at a starter/alternator shop for free (yay!). Put the starter motor back together, installed onto the bike, and tried starting her. To my surprise, the tach shot past 3k rpm's for a sec. However, the battery doesn't hold charge anymore. It shoots all the way down to 7 volts when I press the start button.

Does it sound like my wal-mart battery is no good anymore? Or did I install the plate wrong on the starter motor causing it to use too much votalge? I got the brushes from Chacal, btw.

*edit* I'm charging the battery right now.

 

If you are getting spark on all four cylinders, your pickups are not the problem Bargomer.
Your 4H7 TCI indicates it is from an earlier 650 with a mechanical tach. There should be a tach input for the gauges on a newer TCI. Either of your bikes will run with this TCI but the advance curve is different for the Maxim. The Seca won't be as happy with it.
You mention the voltage drop on the battery when you engage the starter but you don't mention if the starter spins.
Your battery is probably shot (7 volts is pretty darn low). A new one would be a good idea. I would watch to see how much voltage is making it to the coils when you spin the engine. I've seen time and again where an starter will spin the motor but there won't be enough battery capacity to fire the coils at the same time.

 

The starter spins. Is it possible I installed the starter wrong? I cleaned the copper spindle thingie as best I could that's inside the starter. I'll see about stealing new battery tomorrow. I'll try to test the voltage on the coils tomorrow.

 

I just wanted to be clear that the battery was fine before the starter got the new brushes installed. The voltage use to go down to around 10 v with the old brushes when I tried to start the bike, the starter would spin then as well.

 

If the battery is going down that far, it's NOT "fine."

Fully charge your battery and take it to the local auto parts store and have them "load" test it. They will tell you whether it's good or not.

No sense messing with components on the bike over a half-dead battery.

 

Got it. I'll take the battery to get it properly load tested tomorrow. I'd go now, but I'm trapped at school. Argh, I wanna go home!

 

Is that still the same battery you spilled in the Camaro or did you get a new one after that night? (heavens I hope so).

 

No way, Jose. The one I have now is somewhat new. Got it around Oct 2010 or later.

 

Good, glad to hear it. As I recall, you have a charger of your own now correct? No more than 2 amps and make sure you keep the cells topped off with distilled water (NEVER tap water, it will slowly kill the battery).
What did you use to clean the armature commutator (the "copper spindle thingie")? I do hope you didn't use regular sand paper, it will leave small bits of aluminum oxide embedded in the soft copper and this will in turn eat your brushes pronto!. A pink pencil eraser or scotch brite is the best way to clean up copper.

 

Yep, I got the charger at harbor freight, and I've been charging it at 2 amps. Neat trick to clean the copper. I was cleaning it with an old shirt before and wasn't able to get all the carbon or whatever off of it.

 

Cool beans man, have you got spark on all cylinders and are they firing 1-4/2-3?

 

I'm not quite sure how to check that. I checked for spark individually by grounding them to the engine, and it looked good, is that what you mean?

I got the battery back from being tested and they said it holds a charge. I'm no longer having battery issues with the starter. I took it apart again and cleaned it with an eraser. Now when the starter engages the voltage from the battery drops to about 10.5 volts.

I also changed the spark plugs...still not starting. I can't work on the bike anymore this week 'cause finals week is here 8O

 

Spring break has finally begun!

Today I took out the 650 TCI (the one I'm working on) and replaced it with a spare one from a 750 that supposedly worked before. A thing I noticed right away was that the RPMs on the tach were dancing all over the place; it was going over 2k RPM.

I read that it's possible to exchange them, that's why I did it. Does it sound like I have a faulty TCI?

 

Still not running, btw.

 

You can only substitute an Igniter with the SAME Part Number.

 

You can swap different years and between the 650/750 family, but keep in mind that some early 80/81's had mechanical tachs (no tach output) and every model/displacement has it's particular advance curve. They are close enought to test if the bike or TCI is functional but I would recommend against riding with a mismatched TCI for any period beyond a quick test.

 

Today I tried to start her again, pulled the plugs, and they were wet. So, I went out and bought a new battery, charged her up, put new plugs in, and it's still not kicking over! Ugh! fhbio34h890q2tn]werg...........bnioafiohbawfbo[iesrg

Could it be that my ignition coils are crap? Or is it possible that I screwed up my float levels when cleaned the carbs again? I made sure I didn't touch the tang when I did so.

Please, guys. I'm desperate. This is so damn frustrating. I'm moving this weekend and I wanted to ride it to my new place instead of putting it inside the U-haul truck.

 

Don't feel lonely.
My Bike refuses to start.
I'm pulling the Battery out of the Monte Carlo for a Jump-shot, tomorrow.

I'm afraid it Coils.
30 years is a lot to ask of a set of Coils, ... right?

Or, am I just looking for some excuse to give my wife for getting a set of DYNA Coils and the Hanging Hdwe. from Len.

For some reason, ... I have this uncontrollable urge to add Performance Coils and some Bosch Stainless Core Wires to the Maxim.

But, tomorrow I hope its warm enough to get her to run for me.

 

Did you check the float levels, using fuel and the "clear tube method" before returning the carbs to the bike?

Did you bench sync the carbs?

If it's not running, you couldn't have done a vac sync yet; you have some work to do before you can actually count on RIDING it.

 

I've done the clear tube method, it's just kind of hard for me to tell if I'm measuring it correctly, 'cause with the slightest move of my head the measurements tend to look different. And Robert helped me bench synch them several months ago.

 

And to Rick. I dread the day when I have to ask a wife permission to buy something. I feel for you guys :/

 

We did a bench float adjustment a few months ago along with a quick bench (business card setting) sync. I recall noting nothing out of the ordinary. Bargomer, did you pull them apart again and if you did, did you change anything. If you did not change anything, then you should not need to change the float settings. Cleaning them out will not require a float reset.
It is possible that your coils are shot but you NEED to test them first. Pull all of the plugs, reconnect the ignition wires and ground every spark plug. Then spin it and see which plugs fire and what the spark looks like. A blue/white spark is good. Any yellow or orange is bad and will require the coil be replace. Got good spark?
With good spark, good compression and properly cleaned and setup carbs, you should be firing. I'm pretty sure you are good on the compression front, you did your valve clearances. We cleaned the carbs and I know we saw sparks the last time we looked at the ignition together. If you aren't firing, I'm going to say (hopefully in a non-insulting way) that there aren't too many other things that you need to fire up.

 

Well, I'm settled in my new place now, and had the opportunity to work on the 650. I did a compression test and they read 120,110,100,115, which are 1,2,3,4 respectively. I did a valve clearance check on #3 and it seems to be fine. Maybe the ring has gone sour? I'm gonna do a wet test right now to see what's up.

 

Ugh, the compression jumped to 140 after adding oil. If I remember correctly, my next options are to either replace the rings or buy a new engine right? What would be more economical or better in the long run?

Thanks.