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Repainting question

Discussion in 'XJ Modifications' started by Darth_Menace, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    Hey guys, I currently have my fuel tank off and am sanding it down for a repaint. I'm new to this so I have a few questions. First off where the tank comes to a point near the seats obviously leaked at one time. They used the liquid metal, etc to patch it up, but they gobbed it big time, and i've been dremelling to get the huge chunks down to as level as possible. I am hoping to do a color change, and I was wondering is there some sort of color or finish that would hide these bumps/waves in the corner that I am talking about.

    I know the flatter it is the better it will hide the waves, but that doesn't sound fun to me. Would a metallic flake paint hide it? I'm hovering between blue or red.

    Aside from the waves I am talking about do you have any other advice. Do i have to go down to the bare metal with all of it, or only the parts that had ruse on it (which is what i've been doing) I've scuffed the whole tank and the only bare metal spota are where there was rust that I had to sand away. The bike was black so if i dont go right down to metal will the old black paint show through?

    thanks
     
  2. Maxim-X

    Maxim-X Well-Known Member

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    Don't remove too much of the repair, instead get some autobody filler and add more to get a cleaner line. Then cut that back slightly to blend in with the shape of the tank. Use good quality primer and matching finish coat and then clear. By matching I mean use one brand of primer, paint and clear as mixing can sometimes cause bad results because they may differ chemically.
    A picture or ten of what you are working on would really help us see the problem better.
    More advice will surely follow.
     
  3. Ravenz07

    Ravenz07 Member

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    You are definitely going to need to show a pic of the damage. It is very difficult to tell what you mean by your description.

    Nothing is going to hide waves, having a good paint job would only highlight these defects.

    Keep as much of your old paint as possible, clean the rust off (sanding) and use a primer.

    Try your best to get everything as flat as possible. 90 percent of a paint job is in the prep. If you take the time do get it done now, you wont be wishing you had later on. If you are feeling lazy, just get an orbital sander and do your best with that.

    Make sure where you have gone down to metal that you "feather" where you have gone down. The primer, paint, and clear coat all have a thickness. If you went straight down to metal in only one spot, chances are it will show up as a low spot.
     
  4. johnny513

    johnny513 New Member

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    If your using a DA to sand the tank down, use a high grit (120 or less) to take the tank as close to bare metal as you can. A skim coat of a light filler and blocking with a soft block with 120 grit and a finish sand of 220grit + should take care of the damaged part. For a color that hides imperfections.. stay away from black. White hides better than any color.
     
  5. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    by autobody filler do you mean jb weld or bondo?

    I will get pics up soon. I've been doing alot of dremelling down their hack job so it's only half as bad as it was
     
  6. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    the rear left of the tank....
     
  7. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    another of the rear left
     
  8. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    rear right...
     
  9. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    another rear right
     
  10. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    and the top. as you can see the tank isn't in bad shape except where they put those gobbies of metal at the rear part on both sides. It was gobbed on so bad that it looked like bubble gum was taken and stuck on there. I grinded alot down because there was no saving it the way it was. As you can see now there are still some bumps/waves. I'm not expecting perfection, but i'd like to get it acceptable
     
  11. Maxim-X

    Maxim-X Well-Known Member

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    Bondo would be my choice. Build up thin layers that extend at least a couple inches beyond what you have there, then feather the furthest edge into the tank so the sufrace "looks" more uniform and then use your eye to make the best contour to match the rest of the tank.
     
  12. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    I've never done bondo before. How do i treat the metal underneath before applying the bondo?
     
  13. Ravenz07

    Ravenz07 Member

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    You make sure it is rough with 120 or so sand paper. If you do not have experience with body work your in for a lot of work. Remember that you do it in thin layers, giving each layer time to dry in between.

    A used tank in good condition is not expensive though....

    Are you sure it was leaking?
     
  14. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    Ya I only have the tanks to go by on ebay, but they don't look like a tonne of money, but most of them are in the shape of mine or rustier. The great condition ones are like $150 or more if they come as a set. I'm not poor or anything like that, but I want to keep the price of this fixup to a minimum (makes more money for other toys)

    I'm not sure it was leaking, but totally guessing because of the gobs of metal on the corner of each side of the tank. Why else would someone gob on that liquid metal stuff like they did..i'm not sure
     
  15. Ravenz07

    Ravenz07 Member

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    Well looking at your pictures it doesn't seem like it was leaking. It is odd there is a "repair" (if you can call it that) on both sides. Makes you think a bullet went in one side and out the other. The worst part is it is the bottom "lip" of the tank and it is going to be an incredible pain to get out.

    I am curious what it would like look like if you try to get it off and see what the damage really is, it could just be a dent on either side. Maybe it is lead repair?

    Honestly, it almost seems like a lost cause if you don't want to do a lot of work. You can build the bondo up, but it seems like it would take away from the tanks overall flow.

    My suggestion is, use it as practice for body work and whatever else. People are always popping up on her with parts for sale, tanks usually come around fairly often. When that time comes, jump on it. People here are a lot more willing to help one another out rather than make a few extra dollars. Until that time, if your bike is running functionally with this damaged tank, it gives you the time to work on other things.
     
  16. iwingameover

    iwingameover Active Member

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    didn't see this mentioned....

    If you're grinding on what is assumed to be a repair, before you bondo, paint or whatver fill it back up and see if it leaks. Bondo won't hold up to gas for long and as we all know it'll cut right through most paint.

    Don't want to spend time and get a nice looking tank and have gas leak out the corners.
     
  17. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    Ya so far with the grinding i haven't seen any holes pop up yet. I guess the option is to get this one going for now until a better one comes up. Might as well get this rocking as the springtime is coming. Once i'm done this brutal step i'm sure i will have more questions
     
  18. iwingameover

    iwingameover Active Member

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    You don't have to see the hole to have a leak.
     
  19. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    fare enough. I guess i will just have to test every now and then. If i were to dump gas in it would i know relatively immediate or would it be over time?
     
  20. wizard

    wizard Active Member

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    I have had a little bubble / blister come up 3 months after painting, gas is the hardest stuff to keep contained, I've been concerned since you first posted, once you get the metal worm in those bottom corners, it can be a bitch.
     
  21. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    I'd agree that it most likely had been a leak repair. Those two corners are where water WILL collect over the years as rain seeps down through the key hole. It WILL get through there, and eventually two little pools build up in those corners. They are below the level of the petcock, and it's almost impossible to get it out unless you occasionally drain, dry, and vacuum the tank. I would also expect that the repairs did seal it, but I would do a major cleaning of the inside, whether with nuts and bolts or by electrolysis is up to you. There are threads and forums here on how to do that. Do your searches and you'll find them.

    Don't worry about bondo being a hard job. I learned how do do bondo jobs on my first car when I was sixteen. If you want it perfectly smooth, just keep working at it and don't be satisfied til its up to your own standard.

    Glad you found this site! Keep us posted on your progress.

    Dave Fox
     
  22. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    thanks for the help guys. I know it doesn't mean it will leak over the longterm, but i put some gas in it and stood it up (so the gas was at the corners) and left it there for a few hours and it was clean when i came back. Ah well trial and error. I guess even if i buy a gas tank with no patches at the corners it doesn't mean that one won't leak
     
  23. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    I've now grinded down the best that I can, an applied the bondo. It looks nice so far. I'm going to have to depend on you guys with this as I have no other sources to go to. I spoke to a body shop owner I know personally today (as I paid a bill I owed to him), and I brought this up hoping he would give me pointers or some info, or tips on what finish would be advised. his advice was for me to do the body work and take it to him to paint. No thanks at $77/hour. This is being done by myself for a reason. I will really have to look into what kind of primer/paint to use. I'm thinking a metalic flake finish would "hide" what blemishes are there because it wouldn't be one uniform finish like a regular paint, but I have no idea if this comes in spray balm (spelling).

    Slowly but surely. Won't be pro, but hopefully it comes out descant
     
  24. iwingameover

    iwingameover Active Member

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    Yes Metallics come in spray bombs. Metallic won't hide any imperfections. It'll highlight them because of the different reflections of light off of it.

    Spend the time and get the bondo smooth and as wide a repair as you need to blend it in. Then paint with the color of your choice.
     
  25. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    i attended my auto shop today, and they only sell duplicolor. they don't carry them in stock, but they looked in their duplicolor catalogue, and they have some interesting paint options. They have red with metallic place as the only matallic flake option that i'd want. They also have the "mirage" kits that the color changes from red to blue depending on the angle. Does anyone have any experience with similar 3 step kits?

    http://www.duplicolor.com/products/mirage/
     
  26. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    Any paint job you do should be a "three step kit".
    Step 1: Primer. The mirage paint kit uses a "special" primer instead of "normal" automotive primer. Basically a black primer instead of rust or grey color.
    Step 2: Paint. The mirage effect is produced by the paint itself. It's actually quite brilliant how they make it. But with mirage paint, if you don't have experience painting, it probably won't come out right the first time. Best to practice on scrap metal first.
    Step 3: Top or Clear coat. I actually think this is the hardest step since you can't see where you've painted and it's easy to get "runs" or "orange peel" in the final coating. VERY EASY.

    Things to remember when painting:
    Use primer, paint, and clear all from the same manufacturer. Some paints do not chemically bond with others.
    Wet sand in between coats for the best finish.
    If you wait between coats allow PLENTY of time for it to cure.
    Wait a couple of weeks before applying waxes.
    And most importantly in a great paint job....PATIENCE!
    Good luck with the painting, post pics when finished, we would love to see it.
     
  27. terryj1943

    terryj1943 New Member

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    Will spraying my XJ 750 engine with flat black cause it to overheat? Its an 81 with tank and seat that look brand new. The engine is so dull. Want to give it a fresh new look.....any suggestions.......thanks, terryj1943
     
  28. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    haha, ok not any more thought on the Mirage paint. Red with metallic paint it is. :) The mirage does sound tempting, but i've already started priming with the red primer so since you said the kit comes with it's own special primer, I am not in the mood to sand off the primer that i've already started with. Unless the mirage kit primer could go over the existing one :)
     
  29. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    A major attribute of the Yamaha XJ-Engine is that the whole Plant is made from Bright Aluminum Alloy.

    Rather then Paint it, ... you could have it "Media Blasted" and have the Engine shine.

    Depending upon what MEDIA the Alloy is blasted with; determines what the Alloy will look like after the Job.

    There's a variety of MEDIA and the Finishes they apply.
    Aluminium Oxide
    Different qualities of this exceptionally hard material can be used for many different cleaning, etching and surface preparation applications.
    Glass
    Mainly used in bead form for general cleaning and peening of metallic components.
    Metals
    Steel, iron, aluminium and brass are formed into pellets or cut wire for cleaning, derusting / descaling and peening applications.
    Plastics
    Both thermoset and thermoplastic products can be used for a wide range of cleaning, deburring / deflashing and paint stripping applications.
    Ceramics
    Useful for finishing and peening applications where long bead life is important.
    Natural Products
    Corncob and granulated shells & kernels can be used for sensitive cleaning applications.
     
  30. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    The black mirage primer can be used over the red oxide, but i'd only recommend it if the oxide primer is the same company as the mirage kit you use. Mirage is an exclusive of Dupont, but other companies make the same paint under a different name. A google search of "color changing" and the name of the company for the primer you used should turn up some results for you.
     
  31. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    both the primer i currently have on and the mirage kit would be from duplicolor
     
  32. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    Then you can spray the black primer over the oxide with no problems...I'd use at least two good coats though.
    Wish my buddy still had the helmet I did for him then I could send you some pics.
    I used two coats of primer, then two coats of paint, wet-sand, then two more coats, wet-sand, then three coats of clear, wet-sanding between each clear coat.
    Two thousand grit between coats and three thousand before the final clear.
    Let final clear dry for 2 weeks then use light rubbing compound and a cloth diaper to polish
    Then one more week before waxing.
    I practiced on scrap before I sprayed his $400 helmet.
    Hope this helps, and don't forget the pics when you're done!
     
  33. Ravenz07

    Ravenz07 Member

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    You are supposed to wait at least a month usually before waxing. Also, clear coat should be sanded usually the day after painting or so due to it being easier for the paint to be sanded.
     
  34. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    I did forget to mention the helmet job was five weeks because of all the wet sanding I did. I waited four days after spraying before sanding, then at least 24 hours to allow time to completely dry before spraying again.

    Most auto-body shops will recommend 3-6 weeks before waxing, depending pretty much on their own opinion. The helmet wasn't going to see any gravel roads or mud, and it got dried off with the least bit of rain, so I never applied wax to it.

    Two of the shops in my area recommended the polishing compound 2 weeks after final paint. One shop said 3 weeks to wax, one said 6 weeks, and one told me to wax 4 days after my final coat...I made sure to remember to never take my truck there for body repairs.

    Raven is correct, the longer you wait to apply wax, the better. Too soon could a: weaken the paint, and b: trap moisture under the wax coat and cause pitting.

    LMAO I love this forum! Only one I've been a member of where a patching post can turn into painting 101 and have people working together for the best OVERALL solution to a minor problem, so they can prevent someone from having a major problem later on.

    oh, btw, if you decide to go with flake or pearl, check out Dupont's House of Kolors line
     
  35. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    yep...mirage kit out, red flake likely in.

    ..perhaps with a white racing stripe down the centre? yes or no?
     
  36. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    Guys, I'm having a bit of a problem here. It ended up that I found the red metallic and blue metallic. I didn't like the look of the red because it looked too much like burgandy to me, so I went with Ocean blue metallic. Anyways, I've done 4 coats of primer, and 2 coats of paint. After my first coat of paint I saw that around the lip where the gas goes in, the primer and paint didn't take. I guess the metal was too slick there, and I don't know how I missed that. Anyways, i went back and scuffed those spots with 180 grit, and put one coat of primer one it. Now it looks messed. I have 2 coats of paint (still with lots of the primer showing through. I'm doing nice light coats of paint), and primer in that one section. I have no idea what to do really except scuff/prime that area until it takes, then continue on with painting as though it never happened. Any advice here, or am i on the right track?
     
  37. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    If you're using Blue it will take more coats to cover the red oxide primer, gray primer would be a better choice
    Do you know what was on the tank that is causing the issue with the primer not sticking? Gas, cleaner, etc.?
    How light is "nice light coats"?
    Some pics would be most helpful, then maybe we can get you back on the right track with your paint. It's hard to give advice on how to fix without looking at it.
     
  38. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    well, i've finished painting and put on three coats of clearcoat. It doesnt look as shiney as i would have expected, but than again I have to remember it is me and rattle can paint. I don't know if i should take it the way it is, and put it back on my bike, or wait the suggested week for the clearcoat to cure and then put some more coats on. I tried to take pictures, but it's sort of hard to do in my "paint room"

    Ps. there are some placed in the picture that it looks like rust, but it isn't. It just is the picture.
     
  39. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    also, i`m looking for the yamaha emblems to go on the side of the tank. does anyone know the approximnate measurements of the stock emblems
     
  40. Ravenz07

    Ravenz07 Member

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    Put 5-6 coats of clear coat down. Wetsand from 1500-2500, and polish out. Thats how you get a mirror finish.

    If I remember correctly, they are 6 1/2 inches by an inch an a half or so. I am looking at one right now but I cant find a ruler lol
     
  41. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    Len has the emblems on XJ4Ever, not sure if he has the measurements on there or not.

    Tank is looking pretty good so far.
    What Raven is talking about is getting a nice thick layer of clear built up by doing multiple coats, then after those coats are nice and dry:

    Wet sand the entire tank with 1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper, then use 2000 grit, then 2500 grit.
    Make sure you use lots of water to keep the surface nice and wet. Spray bottle works best for this. And let the paper do the work, don't press down, just glide the sandpaper over the surface. And keep the surface nice and wet.

    After wet sanding:
    Use a polishing compound and a cloth diaper, some auto stores call them a "finishing towel", but it's the old style cloth baby diaper.
    Apply and buff out just like you would wax it.
    You can also use a power buffer for this step, but I'm not that talented so I just use my arm power, if you aren't careful with a power buffer you can go right through all the paint and clear you just worked so hard to spray on.

    Best advice I can give is to treat your new paint like a new baby, be very gentle.

    Would love to see the tank when you get it all done.
     
  42. Xplicit_XJ

    Xplicit_XJ Member

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    Alright its been awhile since I have been on this forum but I just had to say I like where your tank is going and from looking at the first pics you posted of it I have gotten an interesting Idea for a paint scheme on my maxim 750 I was thinking going flat black then sanding down to bare metel to simulate tears then clear coating over the whole thing. Any ideas how to make it work guys?
     
  43. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    X, I've got a couple ideas for you if you want to start a new thread, that way we aren't confusing everyone with two completely different paint projects.
     
  44. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    thanks for the help guys. Is it actually necessary to wait 7 days for the clearcoat to cure if putting on over 3 coats? If so it's going to be a long week, but obviously i'd like to get it going sooner if I don't have to wait
     
  45. Ravenz07

    Ravenz07 Member

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    If you sprayed it from the can, it is best usually to follow all of their directions precisely.
     
  46. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    Personally, and I'm just sayin', not recommending, I like to spray 3 or 4 coats then let it dry for 3 or 4 days, then wetsand LIGHTLY with 800 grit, let it dry a day, then spray again.

    What you want to avoid is spraying between 6 and 48 hours after your last wet coat. At this time is when the paint is at its weakest, not chemically bonded.

    Just a rant here for a minute: Spray paint gets a bad rap, but it's mainly because of "Average Joe" using it and not knowing what he's doing or following the directions. Some people think that they can just spray away 'cause it's in a can.
    You can actually get a very nice looking paint job by using "rattle can", IF you buy good paint, and IF you take your time to do it correctly.
    OK, rant over LOL

    You're doing a great job so far, just remember, patience is a virtue!
    Take your time, it's looking great so far and when you're done you'll have a paintjob you can be very proud of.
     
  47. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    Ya, what's funny in my case, is that i've taken you guys advice, my mechanic/friend's advice, and the advice on the back of the cans, and mixed them all up. I have to say I haven't followed one of the pieces of advice to a T. The primer says to use this grit sand paper, my mechanic says others, etc etc. It will either come out okay because there are many ways to skin a cat, or it will come out crap and chip because I sort of took different pieces of advice and used them.

    For instance my mechanic says to wet sand after every coat of clear, and do three coats like that, wait approximately a week, then put on more coats and wet sand in between.

    oh well, i don't know how long it will last as far as durability, but it looks okay so far I'd say
     
  48. tskaz

    tskaz Active Member

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    That means you are well on your way to being a painter. If you ask 5 professional body guys how to paint, you'd get 5 different answers, but the basics would be the same.
     
  49. Maxim-X

    Maxim-X Well-Known Member

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    Well, all I can say is, you have gone from this:
    [​IMG]
    to this
    [​IMG]
    in just a few weeks is awesome. Maybe mixing the info from the sources you mention might come back and bite you in the ass (I hope not) so just be patient (like us) and hope it turns out great.
     
  50. Darth_Menace

    Darth_Menace Member

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    Ya I agree with you. I think if it ends up not being so steller, it is because of my less than steller painting skills. Not so much mixing up my sources, because after studying up on this, there isn't one miracle way to paint.

    I think if it messes up it is because of my painting at the wrong time, sanding at the wrong time, not waiting long enough for this. (I don't have any specific examples)

    One thing I can think of is my mechanic said to wet sand during the primer and clearcoat stage (different grits of course), but I misunderstood him and wet sanded the paint stage too. Maybe that's why it took a million coats to fully paint it. I can see that coming back to bite me because not a single person told me to wet sand during the paint stage (or i don't think they did)
     

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