Brake/Running Light on without ignition

Hey folks,

In my excitement, I got ahead of myself with the new (to me) 1981 XJ550RH. BigFitz offered a great deal of info and help, and it's much appreciated. I realize I don;t want to burn out that resource, so I have a couple quick questions

I charged the battery overnight, threw it into the bike, and got the blinkers to work (and apparently the brake light too) but realized later that with no ignition key in, the running light was on all day.

So I am getting running lights despite no key in ignition. Obviously something is a muck. I read through the manual I have, and this doesn't seem to be SOP, so I need to find out what to check first. I am just trying to get this thing to turn over so that i can do a compression check before a full tear down.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Scott

 

Did you turn the key PAST the wheel lock setting?

Many of these bikes have a "Park" setting on the key and that will leave your tail light on. (I know from experience - I bought a $20 charger the next day).

If it's not that, some how you wires are directly wired into the battery and not after the ignition circuit.

 

Ok, another charge last night, threw it in and it actually works the lights as expected (still no headlight - that may be blown).

Metal bob, I think you may have been right. The key was turned in a weird way, and that must have been it.

It still won't turn over. Am I missing anything:

1. Key to on
2. Stand up (seems to release the safety switch)
3. Bike in neutral

Im not heating anything clicking or any indication that juice is flowing to te starter.

What's my next check?

Thanks guys.

 

-Headlight doesn't come on until engine starts, that's normal. It has a "latching" relay so once it does come on it will stay on until the key is switched off.

-You could have a wiring problem in the safety circuit somewhere preventing the motor from turning over from the button. Quick troubleshooting on that would be to temporarily unplug the safety relay, thereby bypassing the whole thing.

-Jump across the big terminals on the solenoid (caution: shower of sparks alert) and the starter should spin. That will allow you to at least do a compression test (be sure TCI unplugged.)

 

Thanks Fitz. I'm trying not to wear you out here

I'm not sure where the solenoid is on this bike. Can't see it in the fiche (I'm on a smart phone - need the actuall hard copies!!!). How would you suggest jumping it (carefully of course - to avoid sparks!)?

I did notice that in the bucket - the L/Y and B/Y cones toe (I think the safety connections) is just hanging not plugged in. I don't see the other end anywhere.

Feeling this might be the (a) problem.

 

Solenoid is directly behind the battery, same side. Round thing; two big wires with boots connected to it.

Look in the cable rounting diagrams I sent you.

Jumper it using a big screwdriver or a pair of pliers; there WILL BE sparks, it's unavoidable.

The hanging wires sound like probably the clutch switch leads but I'm at work and my reference materials are at home. The clutch switch wouldn't matter unless the neutral switch isn't working.

 

Since it is not on your list - Simple Check - Is the engine kill switch (right controls) OFF?

 

Fitz, found the solenoid. Thanks. Disconnected TCI, going to try to bridge it to see what's up. Any other things I should know before I create the the spark shower?

I have your email attachment on my phone - but tough to see. I'm wrenching on the curb, floors away from my apartment. Ugh!

Metal, the switch is in the run position, but the thing is so flaky, it has barely any resistance to let you know which spot you're in. I have it in the center, which seems like it's correct, but I need to take it apart to make sure this is not misleading by feel.

Is there any way to skip this kill switch for test purposes?

Also, any idea where I would find what the blue/yellow and black/yellow connector in the bucket should be going to? That seems like it's the safety switch on the wiring diagram. Can't find what it should be hooking to.

Found the other end back by the battery (under fender sorta).

 

FITZ!!!!!! I got it to turn with the jump. Even knowing it was coming, the sparks startled me . Or maybe it was the surprise of hearing it turn over

Sooooooo, this tells me what? I'm so lame when it comes to electrical!!

Still won't turn over from the start button. Going to open up that control and see if I can find anything obvious. Also, I'll look around for the other end to the connector for safety that's hanging in the bucket.

Thanks so much folks!

 

Try holding the starter button in and flipping the kill switch bck and forth moving it around with your thumb and see if that does anything. I had a CB450 that had that problem moved the kill switch around holding the starter button and at one point it fired up so I changed the switch.

 

Also make sure the right controls are getting good ground from the handle bars. Consider taking off the controls and lightly sand the bare metal on the bars and inside of the controls. (as well as checking grounds overall)

 

The control switch was busted inside. I glued it back together for testing purposes - and I have continuity when it's in the center position, and not when I slide it left/right. So I think I should be able to at least test it that way.

I will clean the ground. See if that helps. What should I be putting my meter to? I see the black wire (ground?) and the blue/white comes from the starter button, it's soldered onto the back of the little brass fitting that the button hits.

Is there a sure fire way to test ground on entire bike?

Hopefully getting somewhere and appreciating all the help....

 

PS: I'm still concerned about this molex connector that has the blue/yellow and black/yellow cables. It is sitting in the bucket hooked to nothing. Does this mean the clutch switch mechanism has been disassembled, or that im missing something? I don't see any type of clutch switch anywhere????

Where would it be sitting on the bike?

 

Why not just leave the TCI unplugged, hook up your compression gauge, and use the "jump" method to spin the motor? You're not trying to start it (I hope) just see if it's worth sinking time and $$$ into.

Just be sure to have a helper hold the throttles wide open (or block them open) if the carbs are still on it.

 

Good point Fitz. I guess I got side tracked by trying to determine if I could figure out the (non) starting issue before I got to the compression test.

I will give that a go, and see what I come up with. I have your procedure in my email. Now I just need to find a helper....

 

Or a roll of duct tape and some ingenuity...

 

L/Y, B/Y is for the clutch safety switch on the 650RJ, so it should be same on the 550, BUT I don't have a diagram for the 550 so I'm not 100% sure. In the pic I circled where the clutch switch is SUPPOSED to go, but PO of mine bypassed it. Guessing because of all the other brilliant wiring work they did to it. Last time I had my bucket out I think the switch plug in was a small flat one, but check with someone to be sure. (Thanks again, Fitz!)

The switch can be bypassed by connecting the wires, but I would recommend replacing it, as I plan to do.

Glad you got it turning over!

 

Clutch Switch info (w/pics http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=30354.html

The clutch switch connector inside the shell is GREEN on the 550s. Not sure on the bigger bikes.

 

I was just standing here with a roll of tape in my hand!!!

 

Turns out I had seen that post, which confused me, because that thing doesn't exist on this bike. No switch, not even a place FOR a switch.

The plug in the bucket is lime green, and has the blue/yellow and black/yellow wires coming from it. There is nothing attached to the plug - which I assume would be connected to the end of this phantom switch.

The PO must have removed the stock clutch lever/handlebar mount.

Does this empty plug need to be hooked to something to allow the switch to be bypassed? Could this be an issue?

 

Ahh, yes! Sorry, I couldn't remember if the plug was yellow or green, but I would take Fitz at his word that it is green on the 550.

Is the plug complete? Or just the harness side of the plug? Could very well be the issue. If you would like a pic of the inside of my bucket send me a PM with your email and I'll get you a pic of the connector in question.

Might give you something to do while you're waiting for the help to arrive for the compression test.

 

Yep, this one is definitely green. Really green!

Also including a (bad) pic of the clutch lever with no spot for any switch.

 

It's up on the other side, or should be.

Look at the pics in the article I posted the link to, there are two pics (one of each style replacement switch) plugged into my clutch perch.

However, if you don't have a corresponding hole in your perch, then somebody may have switched the perch at some point to one without provision for a switch.

 

Yup, green on the 650 too. Unless your (un)talented PO decided to paint it when he painted the frame, like mine did.

Without the wires connecting in some way, you still have an open circuit, thus disabling the starter button.....BUT

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the neutral switch shouldn't have a say in the starter motor working, UNLESS transmission is in gear.

I believe tranny in neutral you don't need to pull the clutch in to engage starter. But then again, how would I know? Mine always thinks the clutch is pulled in.

 

Yep, I looked at that post. Makes sense, and I indeed have no area for the switch in this perch (my photo was just horribly vague). I can understand the PO taking it out - but wouldn't it have to be dealt with in the bucket? Seems like he opted for less safety and less completion

 

Sorry, didn't see your other question.

The clutch switch is part of the interlock system, but it only comes into play if you're trying to start the bike in gear. (It will allow it only with the clutch in.)

Mine on my '81 has been broken since I got the bike; I just now got around to fixing it because my son is going to start riding it. It would only prevent you from cranking in gear, unless the neutral switch isn't working.

So it's not "super" critical.

 

Most do.

 

Ok. I was in neutral, so it shouldn't be an issue. Just trying to eliminate things one by one. I'm waiting on the battery to recharge (need a new one) before attempting the compression check.

Seems I have everything I need for compression test - since this clutch switch is not causing me problems.

I'll start doing some research for what might be next in the line of why it wouldn't be starting. Just because I'm obsessing, and I hate loosing to these things.

Thanks for all the help (and links) folks.

 

OK, you're wrong. No disabling going on. It works like this:

The neutral switch indicates whether or not the bike is in gear. ("Neutral" light comes on.)

The clutch switch (when working properly) lets the bike know when the lever is PULLED IN.

The safety circuit will not let the starter spin if the bike is in gear ("neutral" light off) without the lever being pulled in.

If you "jumper" the connection in the bucket, it will think the lever is pulled in all the time, and ALLOW the starter to spin/motor to run if the bike is in gear.

BAD.

If you simply leave it disconnected, the only issue you will have is not being able to start in gear, like if you stall at a traffic light.

NOT GREAT, but not horribly dangerous either. More potentially embarrassing than anything else.

Since I never ever need to start my bike in gear I've never worried about it.

Now then, about the sidestand switch...

 

Right, the dreaded sidestand switch

It appears to be moving with the stand. It's not pushing on it when the stand is up. I see on the wiring diagram that the wires should be blue/yellow and black, but I can see where it goes after it leaves the sidestand (inside the engine cover apparently).

Guess that's the last one to check?is there a continuity check I can do somewhere that would tell me if this is allowing the juice to run through?

 

Dude. PRINT the wiring diagram I sent you. See why I like a book? (I'm at work, about to leave. Reference materials at home.)

Locate and unplug the "safety" relay. This (temporarily) eliminates the neutral switch, clutch switch, sidestand switch AND sidestand switch relay, all in one fell unplug. Then the bike can be turned over and started with the sidestand down, the clutch out, and in gear. WHICH IS WHY IT'S A "TEMPORARY" diagnostic aid, and not a permanent fix. NONE of those are a desired outcome; but at least it gets the safety stuff out of the way.

The sidestand switch wires plug into the harness behind the shifter/sprocket cover.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Fitz, think I'll go unplug that connector and save it for later.

 

Sorry Fitz. I was trying not to bug you too much, I just got carried away, when one thing led to another.

I have the diagram on my phone. I can see the diagram, but was hoping to not have to unplug the whole thing. But that's next. Only for tests, yes. Safety first.

appreciate you talking the time.

Scott

 

Well, even with the diagram printed out, I could not find the master "safety" relay.

I did find the kick stand relay and disconnected it, just to see if it would do anything. No dice. So I lost the light and gave up for the night.

Thanks for all your help today. Sorry if I got you all frustrated

 

I don't know if your local auto parts place has a loan a tool, but these are cheap. It's called a "remote starter switch", you attach the alligator clips to the two points that you are shorting with the screwdriver. No spark show, you can sit on the bike and hold the throttle open with one hand and push the button with the other. Might simplify your task a little bit.
Here's a link to one on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7853-Rem ... ive=380793

 

Just keep at it and keep asking questions. If we minded helping out then we wouldn't be on here. You'll get her going eventually.

 

You didn't get me frustrated. It's just much easier for you if you're looking at the diagram first-hand.

The "safety" relay is referred to as the "Starting circuit cutoff relay" in the cable-routing diagram, and is located under the tank, under the backbone of the frame and just forward of the flasher relay, below the coils. It's in the "Cable 2" diagram I sent you.

 

Thanks Maxim. That would be good to have, but i hopefully wouldn't use it much

Fitz, I will try one more time with the main starter circuit relay (I had found it on the diagram Fitz), but I am having a hard time understanding the layout, even with the fiche photos. Makes it look like it's right under the rectifier).

I've got my eye on a full service manual - hopefully I win the hard copy. It would be priceless!

Ultimately, I'll get the compression test, and apart she will come.

Thunderstorms predicted today, I'll see if I can get a hand and get something going before then.

Thanks again.

 

When I get home, I'll shoot you off copies of the starting and safety circuit diagnostic pages.

The parts locations from the fiche are somewhat fanciful; I believe it shows the sidestand relay as being up in the tail section somewhere. The cable rounting diagrams are accurate.

 

Thanks so much Fitz. I was definitely having a hard time understanding the fiche. In my experience, that was often the best way to get a handle on locations, but I will adapt to this bike (and manuals) - I promise!

I did find the stand relay sorta near the tail, it was behind the tool tray above the fender - on the stand side.

I would really appreciate the diagnostics. Hopefully the auction goes my way for the service manual too. Otherwise, I'll grab another one.

I am wondering if the 'compatibility chart" that was listed in the XJCD page is available anywhere else. That would be a good thing to have - to see where I can grab from when looking for replacement parts.

After hitting the wall with the electrical yesterday, I went to town with the Penetrating Lube (Kroil on the way!), and I can see that 12-18 months of outdoor neglect and abuse is possibly going to require some replacements....

 

Sorry about the size.

Brown and green are the turn signals.






THE BLUE WIRE IS WHAT THE RUNNING LIGHTS PLUGGED INTO.

 

Thanks Bill. The flashers are working fine (for now!)

What's the second picture of???

 

[Slight] update: I have a service manual on the way!

No time for a compression check in the rain today. Will try tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your help folks.

 

Just as well, your numbers would have been skewed.............................................................................................................................................................wait for it............................................................................................





































it would have been a WET test, get it, rain...wet test! :wink: :wink:
Oh forget it I'm gonna go drink some more.
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

the running light wire

 

Very clever indeed....

I'm fascinated by this ignition routing. Hoping the manual will help. So much more advanced than the old CB550. In just 6 years!

Never thought I'd want for an old points system

 

Ok, gottcha. I ended up realizing that was me being weird with the ignition switch. Sorry about that - it's buried deep in the thread.

Thanks for the pics though.