Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fairing

I'm looking for some tips in improving the sound quality and reducing the distortion I'm getting in my Cycle Sound Radio shell.

A - Admittedly I do have a CHEAP/Crappy radio - But its DIN/Shaft sized and has many input options w/o the weight of a CD player
B - I just upgraded to better (and marine grade) Two-Way Polk Audio DB401 speakers
B2 - I can only use 4" speakers in the radio shell
C - I do have an inexpensive (marine) amplifier I received this week - Its not installed yet - PYLE PLMRMP3A

1 - My cheap radio does have RCA outputs and my amp has RCA inputs - I WILL be using them.
2 - I will use better speaker wire when I install the amp. (Cheap radio/speaker combo came with very thin wires).
3 - I plan on soldering all wire connections if possible
4 - I DID put some (left over memory) foam behind the speakers to try to reduce the vibration. It did help a little.

My Cycle Sound radio shell is basically a 2 piece (top and bottom) hollow shell that holds a DIN sized radio and two 4" speakers.

What can I do to reduce the vibration of the shell and the distortion of the speakers at louder volumes.

If you first/only suggestion is to replace the crappy radio, at the moment I can't afford that project.

I realize none of these parts are "high quality" but what can I do to make the best of what I have?

Will the RCA connections and AMP make it better (and louder) with less distortion? Or do I need to do more? I.E. more foam or other sound absorbing material.

P.S. If it matters, I play a lot of Metallica. At the moment I only have 125 Metallica songs on my radio's SD card. :twisted:

P.S.S. The new speakers do sound better, but they still distort and vibrate the shell.

 

First of all, NO you don't have to replace the crappy radio. The radio unit itself has no bearing on the distortion caused by the speakers.

And, the distortion is partly caused by the speakers. Switching to the lower OHM/higher wattage will help, but only so much.

The problem with small speakers is that the louder you crank the knob, the faster they flex, and the worse they sound because they don't have the flex that is built into the bigger speakers. Not saying to go with bigger speakers, I know you are limited by the mounting space, just explaining one of the reasons they sound like the drive-thru guy at McDonald's.

The best thing you can do right now, and the cheapest (other than free), is to mount your speakers SOLID. Install something called AudioMat wherever you can inside the shell around and behind the speakers. Mount the shell as solidly as you can to the bike, use rubber washers to minimize vibration wherever possible. And leave the amp off until you decide to try bigger speakers (size and wattage). It will only make the distortion worse, for the same reasons stated above.

Here's an audio secret. When you go to a store that sells car audio, you ever notice how the most expensive speaker is at the bottom of the display? That's because that is the most solid spot to mount them, in turn making them sound the best, when usually the speaker two spots up is actually better, just not as much profit in them.

We can elaborate more on this later, but this should give you a good starting point.

 

A - Glad I don't need to toss out the radio

B - This particular shell only holds 4" (or smaller) speakers
B1 - Some versions of it over the years did use 5.25 (I think) but I don't have one of those - FYI: The shell may be older than my 82 XJ

C - Mounting solid: If you (or anyone) is not familiar with this particular radio shell, it is designed to rest on of the "dash" of Windjammer fairings. It is attached to the fairing in only 4 places. Two brackets connect to the corner of the windshield (the metal clip screws) and the outer upper corners of the speaker holes. The other two screws pass thru the windshield and the lower corners of the shell.
In theory, I can drill more holes and add 2 more screws to mount it directly to the fairing's "dash". Even if I didn't do that, I could at least place some soft material between the fairing and the shell.

D - Sound damping of the shell - I figured this would be a recommend/required step. I can't find the exact brand you mentioned on google. I did find Cascade VB-1S PRO Quiet Kote Damping Spray 18 oz. Net Wt. It might be a lot cheaper and easier to apply than the expensive sheets. Thoughts on the spray or CHEAP source of mat material?

E - Rubber washers and stuff I can/will do - Good suggestion even if I wasn't complaining in this post.

F - Amp - I bought the amp to make the sound system a bit louder. I figured better speakers, wires and amp would make me a little happier and make the music a little louder. Forgive my ignorance on how to buy this stuff properly (especially cheap), I've never installed an amp and my last few cars have been newer and didn't need one.

F1 - As I mentioned above I really can't go larger on the speakers in the shell. Even the location on my hard saddlebags that I wanted for rear speakers is perfectly sized for 4" speakers. Perhaps MORE speakers will sound better/louder with out the volume being maxed out? FYI: The saddlebags are larger but will probably be 1/2 filled on a regular basic (cooler, warm weather supplies etc).

So is possible, with the parts I've bought/have I may just be doomed to have distorted music at any louder volume? (Not that distortion is a deal breaker at 70 mph when I just want to hear the music a little better than with the CHEAP speakers).

Any other ideas/suggestions OTHER than buying a LOUD modern system DESIGNED for motorcycle cruising?

 

I agree on the audiomat idea but i would recommend using dynamat it is what most car audio places use to help absorb excess sound and vibration.


http://dynamat.com/

 

Some more pictures of the shell.


Radio shell is shaped to fit onto the "dash" of the fairing.

 

What do you think of the spray material I mentioned?
Cascase VB-1S Pro Quite kOTE sPRAY

 

Not a bad idea. Could use some type of foam rubber for this.

The spray, although maybe cheaper, can be quite messy. Check out this site The DynaMat is very expensive, but if you look at the FatMat line, it is much better priced. A 12"x6" sheet (license plate kit) is only $8. you would have to measure roughly what you need to see which one would be most economical for you. Unlike foam rubber, these items are sound ABSORBING materials and work much better for the speaker application. Scosche also makes it, but I don't remember the exact name of it. Walmart no longer carries it, but Scosche still makes it. I think I paid $15 for two 12"x12" sheets when I did my truck.

The amp looks to be between 200 and 300 watts, correct? That would be max wattage, so the amp will only work (constant output) at about 1/3 of that, so 300W amp = 100W useable power. The speakers I seen were 137W (which would be max) and only half of that is constant output, so 140W speaker is 70W constant output. Which if we do the math, 70W speaker minus 100Wamp = negative 30W, or in other words, a "blown" speaker.

If you were to series-wire 2 speakers to one channel it would cut down on the power to the speaker, but you would only have one sound channel (sound from left, not right, as an example) So yes, it will work that way. But I would keep my eye out for a set of at least 180W speakers (3-way preferably) for a good price. Until then go ahead and use what you got. Changing the speakers out later is the easy part.

Not at all. With the right installation you can get nice crisp sound out of "cheap" components. I have, now that I bought my new $40 radio, right around $70 into my truck stereo system, and I can still piss off the neighbors! LOL

But not as bad as when I start my XJ at 3a.m. to go to work!

Wow, I think I just wrote like a thousand word essay on "bike" audio! LOL Hope it helps!

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

Okay, here is the link for the Accumat from Scosche. Although on their website it is about twice what I paid at wally world.

Accumat

 

Here are some pictures of where 4" speakers will fit on my hard saddle bags.



Here are the manufacturers' number claims to help check the math.
Are you saying just using the amp will blow my speakers? Or did you mean if I fully cranked it? (Which was not my intent on the amp).

Speakers: DB401
Overall Frequency Response 85Hz-22kHz
Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
Power Handling (continuous) 45 w
Power Handling (peak) 135 w
Efficiency 91 dB

Amp: PLMRMP3A PYLE
# 4 x 100 Watts RMS at 4 Ohms
# 4 x 200 Watts Max at 4 Ohms
# 4 x 300 Watts RMS at 2 Ohms
# Electronic Crossover Network
# 2 Ohms Stereo Stable
# Anti-Thump Turn-On
# Soft Turn On/Off
# Adjustable High Low Level Inputs
# RCA Line Input
# Power Protection Circuitry
# Volume Gain Remote Control
# T.H.D: <0.05%
# S/N Ratio: >95dB
# Channel Separation: >65dB
# Frequency Response: 10Hz- 40kHz
# Fuse : 10A

Radio: Pyle plr22mpf
2 Channel Output 100W x 2 (200W Max)
1.2 Volt RCA Line Out (Amplifier Line Output)

 

Bob, my brother-in-law has the same setup on a XJ11. He had the same problems with vibration and distortion. It was a huge inprovement when we filled the vacant cavity behind the radio and speakers with foam. We tightly fitted a piece of old couch cussion foam in there. Filled most of the empty spaces with cut foam to dampen. It solved the vibration problems and helped noticably with speaker distoration.

 

I dont know about the spray sound deadener but i would try more foam or (and this is just an idea dont know if it would work or not) you could find a way to fill the areas where the head unit and the speakers go and try some of the foam insulation you can find at home improvement stores its just an idea

 

A few ideas:

You can get foam "buckets" that mount behind the speakers, they might help cut down on distortion if it's partially a matter of the other parts of the fairing resonating. They'd also help if you wanted to fill the dead space with some kind of foam.

I disagree with tskaz's theory that the radio can't be contributing. For one, it's quite possible that your head unit is grossly underpowering your speakers. You don't want to exceed the 45w RMS rating by much, but you also don't want to be putting 10% of their RMS to them. It wouldn't surprise me if that Pyle HU was really putting out 5w RMS or less. Their claim of 100wX2 RMS/200wX2 peak (or do they really mean 100wX2 peak?), with only 3 amps consumed throws up my BS flag.

A dumpy HU might not be the only cause of poor sound, but if you're having to crank its already-marginal internal amp section, it's going to sound awful. You might be able to get around that with an external amp and preamp outs, if the signal processor produces decent quality.

That also makes me question the accuracy of the rated output of that amp. Especially if it's compact, cheap, and yet supposedly stable to 2 ohms. An alternative to check out is the Alpine KTP-445 mini-amp. It's rated at an honest 45x4 RMS, so it should be great for those Polks, although I really, really doubt that Pyle amp would truly overpower them either. The KTP-445 has Alpine plugs, but you can remove the plugs and splice it into your current harness... you'd probably have to (or want, at least) shorten the harness it comes with, which is about 3' long on both ends.

You could also replace that HU with one of at least slightly better quality. I thought Alpine had a cheapy, that would plug & play with the KTP-445, without a CD player, but all I'm seeing now are $350-400, or $100 with a CD player. Like I said though, using the Alpine amp in no way limits you to an Alpine deck, it can be spliced into any standard head unit's wiring. Most of the wires in the harness it comes with don't really do anything, they're just pass-through.

 

Most of the distortion is caused by the mounting of the speakers being less than solid. Anything you do to make the enclosure more solid will help, i.e. packing the enclosure with foam or covering the inside with carpet or accumat. Any of these will work, some are better than others.

The specs on the head unit are right in line with anything from Sony or Pioneer 180w-210w units that sell for $80-$100. They all draw anywhere from 3 to 5 amps.
RMS is by definition an average reading taken at a certain amp draw. If the amp draw for taking the measurement is 5a but your 30 year old wiring is only allowing you to draw 3a then you wouldn't be right at the RMS of the unit, but you wouldn't be way off that number either.

My $30 (original price: $40) No-Name head unit (made by Jensen) that is rated at 25w per channel, pushes my $20 (original price $80) set of four 6x8, rated at 60w RMS Lightning Audio speakers, with no problems at all.

If you use that amp with those speakers, and turn it up too high, you'll rip the speaker cone so that it doesn't oscillate correctly. A blown speaker. If you don't turn it up too far, the speaker would be fine. Problem is that you never know how far is too far, and it's a very fine line between solid and ripped.

 

The specs might be right in line with others, except they're claiming 200w on just 2 channels, not 4. Assuming standard peak of RMSx2, that would be 50w RMS. If Pyle could make a $30 head unit that put out 50w RMS, they'd be selling them somewhere besides Wally World. I have the same opinion of that amplifier. Looking at the pic of it, they either use the biggest glass tube fuse holder ever, or their specs are FOS. 400w RMS, and 600w RMS @2 ohms, and stable, in an amp that small? I'd love to see someone actually test the power of one.

Point being, I doubt that amp could really damage those speakers. I could be wrong. I've spoken to many a person who knows more about car audio than I, who have said that over-powering a speaker by 10-20% won't likely damage it, but that severely under-powering them will make them sound like junk.

Personally, I try to do my audio once, and do it (reasonably) right. Nothing wrong with cheap stuff, as long as it's quality, and performs well... I usually got my speakers from fleabay for ~1/3 what Crutchfield got.

Definitely fix the mounting first- it's probably the cheapest route, and it's not like upgrading components without also fixing the mounting would be a good plan.

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

I still have two of those Vetter sound systems out in the shop that I've used on various bikes with and without the fairing. I used a better radio (one with better output watts) and better speakers to get mine good enough for highway use. You probably need atleast 35 watts per speaker to get enough volume to hear it at highway speeds. And there's only so much you can get out of cheap speakers. You get what you pay for when it comes to speakers as a rule.
I used foam rubber behind the speakers to get a better sound out of them, which helped alot. The only problem I see with the Vetter sound units is the lack of room to use larger speakers, so you will just have to get better speakers and some power behind them. You'll be able to hear it at half volume on the interstate no problem.

 

if you pm me your address ill mail out some fat matt i have layin around! I did my whole car and have a lil left over!

 

there are some good tips goin so far. make sure you mount solid, try and solidify the speaker compartments and deff run the amp. is there a gain control on the amp? little speakers are better for the higher hz range. so if there is a way to cut off the lower freq it will deff help in clarity. if you can get a bag of polyfill (walmart) that work very well to take up airspace, slow the rear firing sound waves down. equipmant is only part of the equation in audio. Install is crazy important!

 

PainterD thanks for the real life experience feedback. If you ever want to sell one of those shell for DIRT cheap let me know. Do you have any of the later "vetter" (not cycle sound) shells that hold 5"?? speakers?

Everyone else - Thanks also.

Other than being limited to 4" I thought the DB401's were at least mid range quality/output. If not... Well that was the best quality with the best reviews I could afford. (I looked at pricier 3way with lower output rating with poorer reviews).

The cheap radio is not helping overall I'm sure.

On a positive note:
I did TEST my amp with 1 channel hooked up via RCA output. The other speaker I left attached to the normal speaker wires w/o the amp. If I turn up the input gain on the CHEAP/small amp at least 50% I can make the amp'ed speaker louder. The amp'ed speaker also appears to be slightly less distorted sounding. NOTE: This test was basically done w/o any foam and the speakers barely inserted with 1 screw each.

I did not turn the gain up 100% because of the warning about blowing my new speakers. The amp does come with it's own volume control that works in conjunction with the radio's volume control. When fully installed I'll try to find a permanent setting for the amp and not mess with it.

At the moment, all of the speakers, amp and radio shell assembly are back in my living room. I plan on installing old mattress memory foam material inside the shell and behind the speakers.

Keep in mind, except for my new speakers everything was bought on the cheap the keep the budget low. I don't need perfection, I just want to hear more than quiet background music while on the highway. I THINK the amp will help.

Money and lots more riding may lead to better equipment.

Hopefully I can have everything reinstalled tomorrow before my nighttime job assignment. If not I hope it is not raining on Friday.

 

Try bass blockers--the small speakers likely can't handle very low bass at any significant volume without major distortion. Bass blockers are capaciitors of the right value to match with your speakers to block bass below a given frequency. They should only cost a couple dollars each, so you can cheaply experiment to find which ones work best in your situation. The right one can get rid of a lot of the distortion with little change to the audible bass.

I'd also stuff with a fiber material rather than a foam--fiberfill from a pillow, or even fiberglass insulation. Acoustically fiber will make the box seem bigger to the speaker.

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

Metal_Bob,
No, I don't have the radio shell that uses 5" speakers. Mine are both the same as yours with the 4" speakers. I may sell one of them, it doesn't have speakers or a radio in it - it's just the plastic shell with the antenna. I guess make me a fair offer - I don't know what they're worth now as you don't see them around much anymore.
I would not go with any kind of bass blocker to change the sound. That would only make your speakers mid range/tweeters with poor (tinny) quality music sound to them. Just get two or three way speakers with tweeters in them and you'll have a good sound.
I never felt the need for an extra amp on any of my Vetter housings. Just a good radio that puts out 30w+ per speakers is all tht's needed and will sound plenty loud on the road.
You also don't neccessarily need water proof speakers. I just covered mine with a thin plastic bag before installing them, which doesn't change the sound at all, trust me. (try it) so you can use any higher quality speakers.

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

Blockers come in different values. I've done blockers in a car at around 120 hz or so, intended for use with a hatchback sub-woofer box. The goal isn't to eliminate all bass, it is to eliminate just the bass that the speakers can't handle. Done right, they won't sound tinny but will be able to go to higher volumes with less distortion.

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

sevesteen: Where do you buy them (other than online)? What kinda price range? Just wire into the + wire of the speaker?

Foam vs. Rubber vs. Polyfil
I will start with what I have (memory foam).
Depending on how much fat matt i receive from rustysavage and if it sticks to the shell I'll try that.
I can also try polyfil if the 1st two don't work on their own.

Hopefully (weather permitting) I can reinstall my foam filled radio with the amp on Friday afternoon. I bought a few more connectors today to make amp power install easier/faster and allow for quick removal.

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

The cap gets wired to the speaker, speaker wire to the cap. + or - terminal doesn't matter, but just one of them.

I don't quite remember where I got mine, likely the local Parts Express or Mendelson's Surplus, and probably as a non-polarized capacitor rather than specifically a bass blocker--same thing, different packaging. Kind of difficult to find the right values inexpensively, but it can be done. There is someone on Ebay who has 100uF capacitors 2 for $1 plus flat $5 shipping for as many as you want. These will likely start blocking too high used singly, but adding another cap or 3 in parallel per speaker will lower the cutoff. (by 'in parallel' I mean twist the wires of several together on both sides, treat the bundle as one capacitor) and allow more bass.

I'm not familiar with how memory foam would work acoustically. As a liner I would expect it to improve resonance and reflections. As stuffing I would expect it to make the cavity seem smaller, the opposite of what you usually want for automotive speakers. Fiberglas or fiberfill makes the cavity seem bigger to the speaker.

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

The Vetter sound systems come with foam in them from the factory, so there must be a reason for it. There were two small (about 5" X 5") pieces inside mine when I changed my speakers for better ones.
There is also a large peice of foam where the radio sits, to cushion it against sudden impacts I assume.
There was another manufacturer that made plastic radio housings that mount to your handlebars with brackets that are adjustable. The also used 4" speakers with the radio mounted in the middle, much the same as the Vetter system. I still have one of those just incase I feel the need to use it on a bike. They quit making them years ago and I think I bought the last one the store had.

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

Update Finally:

Installed memory foam filled radio shell, the amp and repainted speaker grilles today in like 90F sunny weather... UGGGH (No garage).

I added two bolts thru the bottom of the shell thru the top of the fairing. This may help with vibration a little bit. (I didn't have any rubber handy to put between the shell today - maybe next time I take it off). The bolts may also help deter/slow down would be vintage thieves...

I repainted the grille covers a gloss black. I may not affect the sound but I think it looked better and made the radio less flashy (and attractive to thieves). Later on I think I'm going to get a satin top coat spray for the grilles - they are a little to glossy compared to the radio shell.

The amp seems to be working fine. I did forget to "test" swapping the polarity switches on the amp to see if it improved the sound quality. Its easily accessible but I want to test the system for a few days first.

The foam and bolts seem to have helped with the shell vibrations. I'm not so sure it helped with speaker distortion.

However, I did find out my OLD mp3s I was using were only 128bit (or worse). Later this week I'll pull out my CDs and try re-ripping them at a higher rate with a modern encoder. This may help the sound/distortion a little. (FYI: Low bit rate heavy metal MP3 don't sound the best no matter what your sound system).



P.S. I still eventually need to swap fairings and re-install sound system yet again. I may try some fat matt or other options at that time. I'm still wanting to toss 2 more speakers into my saddlebags (facing towards the front of the bike). I haven't bought the speakers yet, but I have all the wiring/mounting planned in my head.

 

GRRRR

Either my amp or radio blew a channel or maybe the amp overheated...

My "4" channel CHEAP amp that actually works like "2" channel even though it has 4 inputs and 4 outputs (2 Channel input puts out stereo signal on all 4 outputs). At least with the goofy amp, I can test if the radio or the amp lost a channel by swapping the L and R RCA wires from the radio...

My radio also got a little wet while at work. That may not be helping...

I'll let the radio dry off and the amp & engine cool off and hopefully have time to look at in the A.M. before work.

 

Double grrr...

Apparently I lost a "channel" on the radio end... Maybe it will work when it dries but I doubt it...

 

Update:
Dried radio seems to be working again.
I guess I'll try to install the ILL fitting (incorrectly pictured on websites) radio cover...

 

Re: Need some help/tips about improving sound system in fair

I found some 0-1.2Khz bass blockers "intended" for 4" speakers. I installed them at 11:30 pm in like 40F weather. They definitely block alot of bass. I couldn't truly test the high volume effect that late at night.

I'll crank them up in the morning. It may be a few days before I get to ride with them though. I may also need to increase the amp's gain to compensate for the bass blockers. I kept it decent at first to prevent blowing the speakers.

I'm tempted to "test & return" a better quality head unit just to see how much of the quality and volume issues are caused by the Pyle unit. Maybe if I have time this weekend. I might also try some fiberfill instead of the foam time permitting.

Other than $$ my main issue with a better/different head unit is cutting the 30 year old shell and figuring out a way to secure a non-dual-shaft radio in the hollow thin walled plastic shell...

My 2nd set of speakers for my saddlebags arrived, I'm curious to see how they sound in the larger hollow plastic bags vs. the small radio shell. So many projects this weekend and so little time...