Freeing up seized engine from reluctor

Became a member this week while investigating ways and means to unseize an engine and happened accross this site and was very impressed with the info.and advice. Mine is an 81 XJ 750 E I believe(5g8-01288 chassis) ,a Japanese import with 30k kms on the clock .I have it about 20 years and it hasn't been started for 5 years and not used much during the five years before that . The bike has always been covered ,however the past 3 winters in Ireland have been extremely cold and I had removed the complete exhaust system to attempt repairs (maybe a mistake ,as it exposed some ).
Anyway having recently retired I set about getting it running again and have done some cosmetic work (wheels,headlight shell,frame etc)already as well as unseizing the clutch,the throttle linkage, and also started work on front brakes. Engine wouldn't turn so set about removing starter and then plugs (with patience), however two have sheared off leaving threaded portion in heads. My main objective now is to turn the engine ,then will tackle broken plugs and I will examine carbs and also see the tank is fairly clear inside.
I poured a mix of brake fluid and diesel in the bores several weeks back and then tried to free it up rocking it back and forward in 5th gear but to no avail. I then read your thread on turning the reluctor but can't seem to see a sign telling me the direction to turn it.So if I am looking at the reluctor on the lhs of the bike do I turn it clockwise or anticlockwise. Am optimistic that it might free up but just wonder how much pressure I should use..i.e. should I use a heavy hammer on the 19mm spanner? Any suggestions welcome as I hope a major overhaul is not required.I can do the usual repairs and service but wouldn't be able to rebuild an engine (maybe because I never had to) but budget is not great right now and would dearly love to get her running again for the summer and give her a new lease of life .

 

I do not see you getting a lot of help here so I can give you my 2 cents worth until someone comes along.

Brake fluid down in the bores does not sound like a good idea.
PB Blaster or Kroil seems to be the choice products around here.
....
As for the direction to turn the crank, clock wise and if you try going backward go slow (in any direction for that matter)

 

"Forward" is COUNTERclockwise when viewed from the left side of the bike.

 

Thanks Bill and Bigfitz for the response but am a bit confused .Is it clockwise or anticlockwise ?.Unless I'm mistaken you both seem to have different opinions.

 

As I said; "forward" is anti-clockwise when viewed from the left side of the bike. It's not a matter of "opinion."

Think of it this way: The crankshaft turns the same direction going "forward" as the wheels do. So viewed from the LEFT, it would be...

 

Thanks again. Don't know why I didn't think of that .Makes complete sense . Btw to answer Bill's earlier comment suggesting PB Blaster and Kroil. I have heard these are excellent products but I haven't been able to source them here in Ireland so tried the diesel and brake fluid mix as suggested in other forums and also by a motor mechanic I know. I even heard Coke was a good solution,but prefer to drink it. The intention was to try the diesel/brakefluid first and if that failed then order the PB Blaster from EBAY/US I suppose. I'm off now to attempt turning the reluctor.

 

if you have the ability obtain a red container called marvel mystery oil, along with pb blaster or a deep creep formulated anti rust anti seize liquid, place the pb blaster or the anti seize compound in the cylinder holes and followed by the marvel mystery oil, let that bad boy sit for a good portion of time, good idea would be work on getting the rest of the sheared of pieces out of the head. make sure to have a drill with different gauges and a tap and die set, along with if able a easy out set kit. get on you your knees and sing to the bike make it feel special and start rotating the crank by means through the ignition pickup side (left side of bike as you sit on it) if you need to turn counter clock wise for a bit dont be scared to, as you done dedicated to getting this running and well it really wont hurt the cam lobes nor shims. but i will say dont turn it more than a full rotation. just enough to like work that area and move back to clockwise. once you have successfully freed the motor, i recommend pushing the motor while in 5th gear to lubicate the internals ( make sure the bike has oil) and this will help clear up blemishes.. one thing you need to know is that you may have a bad spot where the piston caps have been sitting so long, the area will prolly be pitted and well you may end up having to drop cradle and motor and take the head of and drop the pistons and bottle brush hone the walls of the engine and replace the rings on the piston. this is all on how much you wiling to go with this bike. if it gets to the point i have seen a ring set for 20 plus shipping.. hope you have the best of luck with yours

 

I used to work on generators while in the Army and had quite a few that would run out of oil and seize up. I would pull the plugs and drain all remaining oil out of engine then fill the engine completely up with diesel and let it sit for a couple of days. Normally diesel will free up an engine if its not tore up real bad. What ever you decide to use, let it sit in the engine for a few days and take it easy turning the engine over.

 

Thanks again guys for all your advice....I also believe it maybe more likely that the rings could seize worse on an engine with less wear than an engine with a lot of wear and mine would have had very little wear as there was approx. 20k miles on it. It was never smoky nor burned oil either.

Anyway yesterday I turned the reluctor anticlockwise about 30-45degrees or so but still very very stiff and took quite a bit of effort to get that far.I'm wondering am I doing any damage so I'm now going to try to get some Acetone as I read that this is probably the best product to use when mixed with ATF and leave it lie in the bores for a few more days before trying to crank it again. I also went at one of the busted plugs with an Easy Out after heating it up a bit but still coudn't shift it . Might have to try the drill but I'm a bit scared to do that.

 

It's not going to turn over easily with a wrench with the plugs in it. How are you dumping your various "penetrants" into the cylinders if not through the spark plug holes?

 

You could be biting-off considerably much more than you can chew of something which tastes pretty bad, anyway.

It seems to me, ... your best course of action would be to obtain an Engine from a Breaker and devote your time, energy and BUDGET toward getting the Bike ready too ride.

For what you face in Time, Labor, Repair Parts and Machining ... you could find a suitable replacement Engine and be way ahead of the game.

There's a lot of great products made to help with loosening seized parts.
Seized parts are apples.
Seized engines are oranges.

Placing a Spanner on the Crank Shaft's Turning Flats and finding the Engine seized, ... would be the deal-breaker for me.
Adding in the Stripped Head Holes.

That Engine is beyond the point where repairing it is an option to consider when replacing it is so much easier and far less expensive.

 

If its that stuck you must have some serious rust in the bores. your probably right the exhaust off did not help there were a few exhaust valves open i am sure. Just give it a little time hopefully it will loosen up. it is more then likely going to need rings just from the scraping of rust if it does free up . good luck

 

I had luck with Marvel Mystery Oil in an old Lincoln I got. Tea spoon in each jug and an impatient 15 year old, the thing fired up in 15 minutes.

Probably wasn't seized though.

 

What this Engine desperately needs is to have the Crankcase and Spark Plug Holes filled-up with some Holy Water from the Spring at the Grotto of Our Lady of Lourdes.

Look at the the read-out on the Engine Life Monitor:

( ________________________________________ )

If this Engine was a Horse; a Boy Scout with his Basic Firearms Handling Merit Badge would step-up, load a few rounds into a Lever-action .30-30, and put a couple of shots into the poor things forehead.

Exhibit (A)

Money-wise: It's a bad call. Long-term exposure to the elements with the Pipes removed had likely rusted Cylinder Walls, Valve Faces and Seats of open Valves. This will require more money to fix than you'd spend on a low-miles spare Plant.

I don't believe you should invest any time and money attempting to resurrect that Engine as long as there is one to be had to replace it.

 

Ok, I'll buy into this one.

Provided it is a chemical seizure not a thermal one you can probably save this engine. Alloy pistons in ferrous bores exposed to moisture and air form an oxide that causes them to grow and seize up. You need to dissolve that oxide before you can get them freed up and moving again. Forcing them to move without first getting the clearance back between the parts will break the rings and score the bores. Slow down and think this through or you will be taking it to the tip.

Petrochemicals like oil, WD40, diesel, etc will not dissolve the oxide that forms, you need to use a mild acid like white vinegar.

Here's what I'd do ...

Take the head off, you need to anyway to fix those plugs.

Get rid of the oil, brake fluid and anything else using a chemical solvent that will wash out, like MEK, degreaser and a pressure hose, acetone, etc. You need to get it really clean so the vinegar can get down the sides of the pistons.

Sit the engine, or bike, so that the top of the pistons are dead level.

Pour vinegar into each bore and top it every day for at least a week.

Using a dead blow hammer and block of wood, tap the top of the pistons, each in turn until they move a little (like a fraction of an inch)
It's best to work on the ones that are part way up the bore, not at TDC.
Take it easy, it will take a good few days to get them freed, if they don't move with a solid tap, wait and try again, don't belt them. Once the oxide is dissolved they will move pretty easily for the first millimeter or so, then stop.

Add more vinegar, wait a couple of days, give them another tap.

After a couple of weeks you will have them down to the bottom of the stroke and can clean up the bores enough to bring them back up again
It will probably want honing and new rings but at least you saved it.

I have used this method on outboard motors that have been submerged in sea water and left in a shed for six months, and it works like a charm, but it takes patience and persistence.

Regarding the plugs you should be able to knock out the ceramic center and turn them out with a stud extractor.

Good luck.

 

I've done a lot of engines over the years, most of them two stroke triples and twins. It's a snap to separate the cylinders from the cases once the heads are removed and a rebuilt crank runs $600, with all new rods for a triple. The point of this is, a two stroke engine only has the crank, piston and rings....no valves, no valve guides, no cams, cam bearings, cam chain.....etc, etc, etc. that will need replacing.

I'm 100% with Rick on this one, don't waste your time with that engine, not another minute unless it's to remove it from the frame. It's got a good bit of miles and frankly, a replacment engine is going to be so cheap, that it doesn't make financial sense of ANY kind to continue messing with it.

BUT, to answer your question...here's my favorite method;

For stuck four strokes, remove all the crud that you've poured into the cylinders then get very large container of Kroil and make a 75-25 mix with Marvels...then pour a liter or so into a pot and warm it very slowly on the stove until you think it's nearly boiling. Using a turkey baster, insert 1/8th liter into each cyl. Careful, it's going to be VERY HOT! Then with your socket wrench held tightly onto the bolt the others have guided you to(a helper makes it easier), tap with a rubber mallet 3 times then change the direction of the socket wrench and tap 3 times, change direction again and tap a little harder, keep changing direction and it should be free inside of five minutes. You can speed the process by getting a construction hammer drill and placing a drill adapter on it so you won't damage any nuts then position it below the exhaust pointing upward and let it hit each exhaust stud momentarily to induce some good vibrations to help get your magic mixture between the cylinder walls and rings....

But it's still a waste of time, get anther engine.

jeff

 

Thanks again guys and the thread from IANDMAC I like about the oxidation process but just to clear up a few things...I do have plenty of time and patience and will attempt further to free up the pistons before pulling the head,with a 50/50 mix of ATF and Acetone which I ordered today as local hardware was out of it ,unless you think it's a total waste of time ???. I can get this into all 4 cylinders as the 2 broken plugs still allow me to pour into their cylinders as the central electrodes broke cleanly with the plug tops so only the threaded part (with a hole in the middle) remains in the heads. .This apparently is the best solution I have read about and various lab.tests show it to be better than PB Blaster Kroil etc.and would agree it probably needs an acid component which I assume Acetone would have as I understand it is very similar to cellulose thinners in composition.

I have also attempted to extract the plugs with heat and an extractor to no avail but this is not really a priority right now and if I get the engine turning will then return to that problem but then again I would like to get plugs back into her when I fill her up with the solution and was thinking of trying to run it down the hill beside me in 5th gear and release the clutch...or do you think this could likely cause some serious damage...and maybe should then try the vinegar method first...hmmmmmm

 

be careful if you do get it freed up. I remember about 30 years ago i was young was trying to help a buddy out with an xs 500 the plug broke off clean like yours did i tried heat an easy out everything i got so frustrated broke off the easy out flush with the top of the threads ended up having to pull the head to get it drilled out. I have a feeling that's what your going to end up doing to get the plug out. It might not be a bad idea to pull the head since you put all the stuff in the cyls any metal from the plug or filings from trying to get it out are going to fall in the cyl. If its carbon holding the plug in you might be better seeing if it will come out of the bottom . Good luck

 

I don't think I pulled too hard on the easyout while trying to extract the broken plug (not yet anyway),certainly not enough to break the easyout and I also packed it with grease to try to catch any shrapnel from the plug . I also have a professional oil syphon which I put in the bores to remove the various different solutions I have tried along the way and one plunge on that and I expect it will take up everything including most of those little shavings... Having said that I've never used an easyout before and wonder just how successfull they are as while it bites in hard and turns the right way I can't help but thinking it may be locking up tighter too. I suppose it also depends on how seized the threads are in the first place..

 

the whole head of the plug came off correct? The center and the ceramic came out with the top of the plug ? If so thats why i was saying it might come out easier thru the bottom carbon tends to start working its way up the threads . The most important part of using an easy out. Is use the best one you can get so it won't snap once they snap it makes things much harder you cant drill an easy out . And with as thin as the metal is (bottom part of the plug) it can stretch the threads into the aluminum