Crap! What'd I do? 83 Turbo

Ok I'm trying to bring my turbo back to life, she's been sitting for a few years, and is going to get a full resto, today I figured out why she wouldnt crank, the fuse for the ignition was loose, bypassed that with an inline and presto, cranked over, hose in a gas can, another into an empty can for the return line and she fired up, great!

Next I warm her up, shut off, start doing a compression test, unplug all 4 plugs, #4, #3, #2 cylinders all go fine, cranking for approx 10 seconds for each cylinder, 130 psi +/- 3psi, I go to do cyl #4 and she only cranks for a quick second, now no cranking again....Did I fry something? I dont hear a click or anything now, I jumped the 2 terminals on the solnoid and the starter works that way, so I know the starter is ok...

Ryan

 

Basic starting points would be:

The other fuses, really should replace the fusebox

The battery, even if you started out with a new battery, it's possible you ran it down enough so that it won't crank

That's about all I can suggest for you rright now, I don't know much about the turbo.

Member JeffK reconditioned a really nice looking turbo over the winter. There are a few other turbo owners on here as well.

 

The other 3 fuses are still tight, making good connection etc, I plan to replace the fuse box but havnt decided on what I'll replace it with yet....Battery isnt the issue, I left it charging all night and just tried it, not cranking, no solonoid click nothing...The electrical system on the turbo is the same as the non turbo XJ....Possible I cooked the relay??

Ryan

 

No.
The Battery COULD be the issue.
If the Battery isn't accepting a DEEP Charge, ... you operate off the top of it and there isn't a lot of AMPS to drive the Starter.

But, if you short the Solenoid and the Starter runs, ... test for +12Volts at the Fuse Panel on both sides of where the Brown Wire feeds the Red Wire w/ White Tracer.

If you get an OPEN Circuit ... replace the Fuse Panel.

 

Strange,

A quick word of advice...take you're time and do it right the first time. These turbos are full of electrical gremlins, I just dug one out and resolved it and now I'm back to a solid 15PSI of boost....but in the spring, I had to regulate it between 17-18 so I may have a leak or my wastegate spring is weak.

The "fusebox" is a joke. I trashed the original and crimped spayed connectors on and used knife edge fuses as in a car until I bought a real fuse box. Covered with tape they are safe and get the job done safely. Be VERY careful as it's very easy to burn out one of the two ignition circuits in the TCI. I had picked up a spare for 30 bucks on fleabay. They normally run between 59-100 so when I saw someone list it for 29.95 I snapped it up...well, it's in my bike now so it's a good thing that I bought it......be very careful what you "jump"<LOL>

jeff

 

Thanks Rick, just checked, no open circuit....Battery is brand new and fully charged

Ryan

 

Thanks Jeff, I did the blade fuse in an inline holder yesturday for the ignition circuit, I'm going to replace the panel with a blade fuse block....hopefully I didnt smoke anything in the TCi but it would still turn over if so right? It wont even crank right now...

Ryan

 

A bad, or even missing, TCI will not stop the bike from cranking.

Battery, start switch, kill switch, safety circuit, and starter cutout relays generally will.

 

The fuse in the headlight? Check that...

 

Did you bump it into gear? As mentioned above, if the bike "thinks" it's in gear, it won't crank unless the clutch lever is pulled in.

If the sidestand is down, it won't crank period if it thinks it's in gear, even if you do pull the clutch in.

A flaky sidestand or neutral switch can drive you crazy this way...

 

Sidestand up, held the starter button in, moved it from first-neutral-second and back to neutral, nothing....Fuses are all ok, just dont get how it cranked up multiple times, then cranked fine for the comp. check on 3 cylinders and then stopped all of a sudden...

Ryan

 

Right. You missed my point.

If the sidestand switch is "flaky" as in not keeping a solid connection, it won't matter what position the stand is actually in, if the bike is being (falsely) told by the switch that it's down. That's why I said "thinks" it's down; not that it's actually down.

Also, if the neutral switch is intermittent, and it's NOT indicating that it's IN neutral (even though it may be) then it won't crank either (unless the clutch is pulled, assuming clutch switch OK.)

Problems with either the neutral switch or sidestand switch, or connectivity to them, can cause the "phantom" no-crank situation. Truth be told, this was one of my very first rude XJ lessons, and part of how I found this site myself to begin with. In my case, it was a flaky sidestand switch.

 

Ahh gotcha, whats the easiest/best way to rule them out?

Ryan

 

I hadnt needed to tear into my sidestand switch but if they are anything like the clutch and front brake switch then they are a closed circuit when off and open circuit when on. Meaning you just need to disconnect them at their connector to bypass them.

 

The sidestand relay on my bike is right next to the TCI on a rubber hanger. Disconnect and it will ignore the sidestand switch. I black taped the connections to keep them clean until I get another switch. This may or may not be your problem, but it only takes a few seconds to check. You really need the factory manual with the wiring diagrams to diagnose further and make life easier.

 

[quote="strange246]...Ahh gotcha, whats the easiest/best way to rule them out?

Ryan[/quote]

Grab your trusty multimeter and armed with the info found here: http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=27543.html get to checkin' 'em.

The sidestand switch always goes to the head of the list based on its inhospitable location.

 

Thanks guys, I'll be starting on it with the meter in the morning, I'll post results....If one of the relays is bad, can a regular auto-type relay of the appropriate amperage rating be used or does it have to be Yamaha?

Ryan

 

Unfortunately, most of the relays employed are somewhat proprietary. A couple can be replaced with generics, but most no.

Fortunately, the problem is rarely the relay itself, rather a switch (like the sidestand switch or neutral switch or clutch switch) or the wiring and/or connectors. Corroded green connections are common; as is out-and-out dirt and crud.

 

Ok thanks....I'm just wondering if I could have smoked something by cranking it so much..10 seconds per cylinder...

Ryan

 

Most of the relays are posted on ebay, take your time and you'll be able to figure out which ones covers which models...most sellers think they have gold when it came from a "turbo" but in reality, most relays from a XJ750 will work fine but check first!

BTW--just to tease...I got my turbo back to a solid 17-18PSI this morning. I took it out for a nice 50mile ride before the weather goes south for the weekend. It's like being shot out of a cannon<LOL>!! The darned thing cooks my left leg but it sure is a blast!! You're going to have to pull the tank and disconnect, clean and reconnect all the relays starting from the headlight shell (diode inside) back to the rear of the bike. I think there are 8- 10 all together. Battery DISCONNECTED while you do it!!

PM me is you need the turbo supplement to the manual and I'll hook you up....it has all the wiring diagrams for each separate circuit which makes life very easy!!

jeff

 

Ok so I go out in the garage today to start diagnosing, got the multi-meter out and on, unhook the battery charger, just for giggles I turn the key, hit the button...Vroom...Starts like nothing was ever wrong...Hmmm is it a flaky switch or did I just overheat something by cranking it too long the other day doing the compression test?

Ryan

 

Good to hear Jeff! I cant imagine how hard that thing pulls, granted my Seca was my first streetbike back in like 94 or 95, but I thought it was ridiculously fast stock (and probobly lacking a valve adjustment, carb sync etc)....I actually have the supplement, thanks though!...I was in a bike shop locally today and came across a Kawi GPZ750 Turbo, I was giddy, but alas it wasnt for sale, its the owners personal bike, I love my Seca but a GPZ would look nice parked next to it LOL

Ryan

 

LOL...The grass is always......yeah, I've always liked the looks of the Kaw and the honda 650 turbo too....but I don't have ANY room left....heck, I have a second(not listed below) H1 still in my expedition that I can't figure out where to put if I take it out!

jeff

 

Hahaha I'm not as crowded but I have mine and my wife's Harley's, the 550hp big block Dodge Demon, and my wife's 73 Duster jockeying for space LOL

Ryan

 

OK, it's been a few days....what did you find? Nice thing about a storm, it gives us an excuse to go out to the garage to putter.

I suffered a little damge from the wind and did the chainsaw work on Sunday. Got home from work last night, put on my riding gear and took the turbo out for a quick ride. When I got home, I finished cleaning up the front and back yard. I guess yamaha never expected someone to actually run the turbo at 18psi (although the factory tested it in endurance testing at 21 psi for 8 hours with no failure) since the clutch is exactly the same as nearly every 600-900cc model FJ, FZ, FZ6, FZX, TDM, YZF (yes, the R6) & XJ from 1981 to 2005! Guess what? Yeah, I need a set of fibers<LOL>. The other day it slipped a little at 17-18 psi.....yesterday it happened at 15 or so....at least they're cheap. 40 bucks for a set + 14 for springs. I suppose I could shim the springs but since mine are original stockers, I'll spring the 14 bucks for a new set. I might however switch 2 or 3 with some heavy duty springs I have. It will help hold the power while keeping the clutch pull reasonable.

So, what did you find?????

jeff

 

I couldnt find anything! LOL...The only thing that was iffy was the start switch, and I have one coming that I got on Ebag, a whole right hand control, mint shape! Mine has no writing anymore etc...
I really think I just overheated something cranking it so long with all the sparkplugs in except the one I had the compression gauge screwed into, the damn thing has cranked and started probobly 15-20 times since without missing a beat, so for now I'm going to let it go and move on to other parts of the bike...For instance after running it a few times, theres a puddle of oil under it, I'm thinking the check valve is clogged...The valve clearances havnt been checked in ATLEAST the 15,000 miles since I bought it in 1995...I really am leaning towards re-ringing the top end so its done and either doing the turbo myself or sending it out, how hard was it to rebuild? Did you have any previous experience messing with one?

Ryan

 

Ryan,

There are two checks, one accessble that you'll clean when you remove the oil filter and another located on the scavenge pump inside the cases, not easily accessible. Once you clean (as best you can) the one up near the oil cooler adapter, and rebuild your turbo (and reseat the seals which are similar to piston rings) you should stop seeing the puddles. I had plenty of engine experience but had never taken a turbo apart yet it was a piece of cake. Keep everything ULTRA clean (it spins between 185,000-210,000RPM) because it won't like dirt. You'll also need a good set of circlip pliers. Other then that, talk to the guys at Gpop shop (very nice and smart guys) when you order their kit for around $127, or, if you want to just replace the rings, I have a source selling them cheap.

Pull the valve cover, (I found a rubber replacement on fleabay for 17 or 22 bucks...the other part I bought was the tool so I don't remember which was which) measure to see what you need and what you can move and get the shims from Z1 enterprises for 5 bucks each or less depending on the size and get the valves squared away. I've got a hunch you'll be seeing some very close clearences if it's been that long since they were checked, adjusted. Then go low and get the intake system in order....carbs, turbo, etc. That way, you won't get crud inside the engine. You shouldn't need a re-ring unless testing indicates otherwise. This aren't 1 or 2 ring two stroke pistons so as long as things were lubed, they should be ok.

If you look at some of my old posts, you'll see a link to my photobucket gallery and see that I've installed a auto type fuel filter followed by a 12V solenoid before the R6 fuel pump. This prevents fuel passing the fuel check valve and entering the cylinders and making it's way into the crankcase which can be devastatingto the engine. The solenoid is a very good quality valve yet only ran $28 and is wired directly with the fuel pump so the N C solenoid opens whenever but only when the pump is energized. A huge boost in safety and reliability.

jeff

 

Thanks man! I was thinking re-ring from a restoration standpoint but I guess you have a point, if it aint broke, dont fix it LOL...I'll give the turbo rebuild a go, I'm not new to engines myself, just new to bike engines...I'm not planning to go over factory boost settings on this one, it has alot of sentimental value to me, so its getting restored and ridden easily, I am however keeping an eye out for a another one in decent shape to play with more boost etc...You say you found a rubber replacement, I'm assuming you mean the valve cover gasket? Where'd you get the tool?...

Ryan

 

Bought the valve tool on fleabay too for cheap....I remember that I bought two items from different sellers. One was the tool and the other was the gasket(rubber). The two prices were 17 and 22 I think but don't remember which was which. Most rubber gaskets are 50-60 bucks so I jumped when i saw it cheap. Even the cork or paper gaskets are ok as long as you only install them once. Pull your cover, do all the measurements, reinstall the old one while you ride around for a couple days waiting for your parts then do your adjusments and install the new gasket then....if you luck out and get a rubber one, you can install and reinstall over a few times....just don't make the mistake of torquing to spec....you won't need to tighten it as much being rubber.

allcraigslist.comis your friend....you should be able to find another for cheap...mine cost 600 originally in good shape and even considering the recent parts installed, my total investment is under 1500 just to give you an idea of what you can expect to pay.

Just curious...you said it has sentimental value....did it belong to your dad or older brother?


Yes, you'll have no problem with rebuilding the turbo. A lot of turbo owners think they need piston rings because of smoky startups when all they really need is a turbo rebuild since the oil leaks past the seals onto the turbine wheel and burns when it heats up. I HATE working on cars...I of course do all my own work on the Expedition and car cause I don't trust anyone else to do a good job but I hate it. Bike engines are small, lighter weight parts and to me, pieces of art as much as engine parts. Just my take on it....

Take care,
jeff

 

It has sentimental value because it was my very first streetbike, we went through alot together, 2 marriages, outrunning the cops twice, almost died on her at triple digit speeds racing friends a couple times LOL....I'll do the turbo rebuild myself, I might just have to ask you if I have questions LOL...I do almost all of my own work, I farm out the real suck jobs, like the a/c condenser in my Durango, pull the dash etc...No thanks LOL...I'm a fleet mechanic for Verizon, I'm responsible for 119 trucks so I get elbows deep enough at work LOL...Bikes I enjoy working on, I just dont have a ton of experience with...Here's a couple links to videos of my other baby...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUeW0xoZ8tY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXWqdDGJ0R0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN59iw7o7Ms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-1xy9YkgfU

Ryan

 

You got to love a light weight car and a big engine.....what have you got in it?

Yeah, as I've gotten older, i'll ocassionally farm out the sucky or "hard to screw up" jobs too. I recently had to replace the shift cable in my expy and one look at what was involved had me on the phone to a local mechanic.....sometimes, 200 bills is well worth letting someone else have the fun.

I took my H2 out for a ride last night then took my turbo out as soon as I got back home.....talk about night and day....each pretty cool in it's own way. BTW- my clutch didn't slip once and I probably spooled it up 3 or 4 times (short ride) but it held true right up to 16-17 psi...kind of wierd since it was slipping the other night. I've already ordered the springs and plates so when they come in, I'll drain the oil and pull the cover for a look. It's time to change the oil anyway so I may as well replace the plates while I have it drained since I bought them. I'm wondering about the clutch actuator since it's a different kind of design then I'm used to seeing. I'll evaluate it once I get it apart to see if that has anything to do with the previous slipping.

OK, I can understand keeping your first....I went out and bought a dead nuts copy of my first bike a couple years ago but I wish I had kept a few of the ones I've owned.

jeff

 

Its a 72 Dodge Demon with a fully balanced and blueprinted 440, bored 0.030 over, forged crank, rod and pistons, aluminum Edelbrock heads & intake, Mighty Demon carb, Comp Cams Extreme Energyt cam, 11.5-1 compression...3.91 rear end, and a full manual valve body 727...I've been building it for about 6 years now, new quarters, floors, leaf springs moved in 3" on each side, wheel wells widened, 8 point rollbar...All the metal work is done on the body, just waiting now for my buddy to have time to finish it at his body shop....It hasnt been dyno'd yet but it should end up being around 525-550 horsepower at the motor, around 600 lb-ft of torque....Thats weird that your clutch would slip intermittantly, you'd think it'd either hold all the time or slip all the time once it started to slip...

Ryan

 

I don't remember the Demon series, must have been a takoff on the Duster which is what I thought it was when I looked at it. Wait a second, was that the car that had the decal of the little devil on it? I seem to remember something like that back then. I'm surprised you don't have a holley 850 dual feed (some call it the double-pumper)on it. I was listening closely to the engine trying to hear how high the lift of the cams was. The really high lift cams cause the car at idle and in 1st gear to jump like a grasshopper as it idles forward<LOL>. I was never much of a car guy....parts are too heavy and it costs too much to go fast but when you get it done, it's gonna fly!!!
I used to run a ported H1 on the street back in the mid 70's and my buddy bought a 69 GTO with a full race engine....it was the ONLY car ever to beat my bike from any speed including from a dead stop....that car was scary fast. He used to complain about it cause it would cost him 5 bucks in gas just to cruise a little and run up to the burger hangout and back home each night.....and gas was 78cents a gal. I think we figured that it got around 5 miles per gallon.....but it sure was a fast 5mpg.


I agree about my clutch, usually on a bike, when they start slipping, they get worse and worse gradually. So it'll be interesting to see what the deal it when I open it up. I sent a note to Chacal (Len) who is our forum owner/benificiary to get the clutch cover gasket since he probably has one in stock.

have a good one,
jeff

 

Yup the Demon had the little devil decal, its the Dodge version of the Duster, the Demon was only made for 2 years, then the religous groups made enough noise that Dodge changed the name to Dart Sport in 73...The cam lift is .507" on the intake, and .510" on the exhaust...The Mighty Demon I have on it is a 750cfm double pumper, however all Demons flow about 30% more than their rating, its actually going away anyhow, this winter I'm putting EFI on it, 25 or so more horsepower, easier starts, better throttle response and better fuel mileage LOL...

Yeah let me know what you find inside, I'm curious...I actually sent Chacal a PM almost a week ago about rebuild kits for my carbs, but I havnt heard back, is there another way I should use? Email?

Ryan

 

Check your private messages.....I sent you a note the other day and one this morning....

jeff

 

Sounds to me like your starter solenoid/relay is going bad ....try tapping it hard with a crescent wrench next time it craps out on you...

 

Hey Strange....check your messages...figured out why my clutch was slipping.....

Just waiting on my new plates, springs and gasket then I'll be good to go...

jeff