Oil in the starter... again!

Last weekend I spent a good part of an afternoon getting the starter out and cleaning it completely because it was full of oil.
The symptoms were that the starter was spinning slower and slower over a few days period, until it didn't spin anymore, just made some weird noise (weak whining noise) when pressing the start button.
I took this as being a fluke and didn't worry about it anymore.
This morning I noticed that the starter was spinning slower again, and tonight it's bad again! Ugh!
Does anyone have had this experience, and what did you do to solve it?
I don't understand how that oil is getting in there, but on the other hand, when I took the whole thing completely apart, I noticed that there weren't any seals or anything that could prevent oil, or any fluid for that matter, from entering the starter motor.
Thanks,

Guy

 

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... motor.html

 

Thanks Adrian for the pointer.
I still have a question though. DirtyMaxim says that it is the seal between the starter and the engine that is bad. That does not really make that much sense since that seal prevents oil from the engine to leak OUT of the engine, but it won't prevent oil from getting IN to the starter motor. Or there is another seal that I haven't seen (missing?) in there. I was surprised to see that there are no seals between the main gear, the planetary gear compartment and the electric compartment, in other words, there are no real barriers preventing the oil getting into the electric motor.
Am I missing something?

Guy

 

Guy, see also this post: 1981 Starter
The combined sealed bearing and new shaft seal fixed my problem, and Chacal (XJ4Ever) should be carrying the parts.

 

Shoot. I just checked with Chacal and he does not carry the seal.
I went to Bike Bandit, but they don't list it either.
Does anybody know if I can get a bearing and seal set at a regular bearing store, or were those manufactured specifically for Yamaha?
If available, does anybody know what the specs are? If I take it apart to check, then I can't run the bike, and it's my transportation.
Thanks!!

Guy

 

Obvious question, but is there a reason you haven't attempted to order the seal from Yamaha?

Is it shown in the exploded diagram?

 

That's my problem. I haven't seen any diagram showing the bearing and/or the seal, not in the Yamaha manual, not at Bike Bandits, and XJ4Ever doesn't have them.
If I call Yamaha, I've got the feeling that they're going to tell me that I need to replace the entire starter $$$$$!

Guy

 

Fair enough mate, two choices then - trawl the threads and find somebody who has their engine apart and message them direct or strip yours on a weekend and ascertain the dimensions. I'd still be interested to know the results of a call to your dealer and ask him for the seal to see what he says....

Have you emailed member SecaMaverick? He seems to have the answers in hthe link in his post above.

 

I think that's what I'll have to do. Oh well.
Pretty soon I'll spend more time taking the darn thing apart then riding it!
Thanks for the advices.

Guy

 

He does.

Commonly available parts if you find the proper source.

 

Thanks Adrian and Fitz, I will definitely contact SecaMaverick to find out the part specs and source.

Guy

 

You'll probably just need to make a run to Albuquerque and find a bearing distributor. Looks like there's a place called Applied Industrial Technologies that might fit the bill.

 

Fitz,

Thanks for the info. It just so happens that I have to go to Albuquerque tomorrow, so I'll take the thing apart tonight and bring the parts with me.

Guy

 

Guy,
I got your message. Unfortunately I don't have the information for the bearing here at work. I can provide it to you once I get home this afternoon.

I called the bearing house, and the shaft seal I purchased is a metric 20 x 35 x 6 seal with a garter spring. As noted in my referenced post above, the original seal DOES NOT have the garter spring, but I believe that is why these tend to leak for many of us. The OEM seal doesn't "squeeze" around the shaft like the new seal with a garter spring.

Regarding the bearing, I bought a sealed version. The OEM is not sealed. Once the shaft seal starts leaking, the oil passes right through the balls in the OEM bearing. Buy the sealed bearing. It's better insurance for the money. I'll get back to you this afternoon with the numbers. I sent Len (Chacal) an email back when I did this fix, and he must have run into a snag with sourcing them for stocking purposes.

I also just found out that my local bearing house quit selling to individuals like you and me, so hopefully you'll have better luck in Albuquerque. Maybe call first!

 

Thanks a lot of the information. Don't worry about getting the numbers, as I'm going to go to Albuquerque tomorrow for work, so I'll take the parts with me.
I'm getting pretty fast at taking that darn thing apart now ;-)
I'll let you know what I find.

Guy

 

I just PM'd Guy with the following info, but in the interest of helping my fellow XJers now or in the future:

The bearing I sourced at the local bearing house last year was a Nachi brand “Quest” sealed ball bearing, part #6003-2NSE9C3, and at the time it was less than $20 US.

The shaft seal was a DICHTOMATIK brand oil seal, TCM Part 20X35X6TC-BX, and was around $5.00 US (although shipping was more expensive than the seal because it wasn’t in stock!). Note that this seal is a couple mm thicker than the original (it sticks out further from its bore by a couple mm), but there is plenty of room for it. A side benefit of the extra thickness is that, if there is a groove worn on the shaft that can’t be dressed/repaired easily, it doesn’t matter -- the seal lip is out further, too, and it will ride on the unused, more polished area of the shaft anyway.

If your bearing house doesn't carry these specific brands, the above numbers should still give them enough to cross-reference to an appropriate equivalent.

I have one piece of advice regarding reassembly of the shaft through the seal and the bearing (this is easiest with a vise or a small press): make CERTAIN that the shaft is pressed through all the way, until the shaft shoulder MOST POSITIVELY STOPS. The outside snap-ring will unfortunately still fit into the groove even if the shaft is not pressed through far enough, but the starter will bind up and not operate unless it’s fully pressed in. I’m sure you can guess how I know this.
Good luck.

 

Complete rebuild kit:
http://www.emsglobaldirect.com/p-1026-r ... 30-4b.aspx

Similar kit for my 650 Seca had everything I needed, bearing, seals, brushes, post for battery cable. I think I found them through Ebay. As I recall kit was cheaper than buying individual parts elsewhere.

 

Hi SecaMaverick,

I just got back from Albuquerque and found both the bearing and seal.
I did get the sealed bearing like you suggested and the seal with the spring. It's a little wider, but there is enough space for it to fit.
I'll let you know how it went.

 

Yep, lkraus, I think I had found a kit like that at one time, but at the time, I personally didn't need everything and needed to save money by getting only what I needed. Then when I needed bearing and seal, I didn't need all the other stuff (and I'm not really a packrat). :lol: Options are good, though!

Yes, Guy, let me know how this fix does for you. Glad they had the stuff!

 

Progress!
Don't have to push start the bike anymore. Woohoo!

I replaced the bearing and seal on Wednesday night after I got back from Albuquerque. I had to clean the inside of the starter again and the brushes and commutator was covered with that oily mess again. After a put everything back together (I'm getting pretty fast at it now), the starter still would not run. I've got the feeling that the brushes were at their limits, so after I sanded them and the commutator to get them nice and clean, there was not enough contact left to provide enough current to turn the starter over. So, so much for that.
Luckily, on Thursday afternoon, the mailman showed up with the parts I ordered from Chacal. So, last night I took the thing apart (again!), and replaced the brushes and o-ring. The new seal seems to do the trick because the inside of the starter was still clean as a whistle.
The package from Chacal also contained a new button for the starter, which I also replaced last night. That actually took me longer than taking the starter apart and back together. That little spring loaded sob is not easy to put back together, but I finally won the battle. So, I no longer have to insert a key or the tip of a Leatherman tool into the little hole to start the bike.

Now, to the next chapter of what appears to be a very long novel... ;-)

Guy

 

Excellent! I love it when a plan comes together. Sounds like your starter should be good for quite awhile now.