Vinegar ate my carb!

Or at least part of it. I'm helping a friend with his '79 Suzuki GS425. I broke down his carbs and threw a bunch of parts into a container of vinegar. I've done this many times before including with whole carb bodies.

These carbs are BS34s and I think are similar to those on XS bikes of the same vintage. They have a separate little choke body that holds the plunger and that is screwed onto the side of the carb. I tossed those into the vinegar, too.

I did leave them for quite awhile - 24 hours - but I've done that before and never had a problem. The bowls and all the little brass and steel stuff was fine, but the vinegar just ate those choke bodies! I mean chalky, scraping away powdery crap, big pits, etc. There's still metal underneath and I could probably get the outside of it cleaned up good enough, but the inner passageways are toast. Too risky to try using them.

The bodies of these carbs seem to be a different alloy than those on the XJs. Still, I'm paranoid now about using vinegar. Has anyone else had something like this happen?

 

I followed bad advice of boiling my carbs in simple green. Actually boiling, not just soaking em. turned em black and dusty, didn't compromise the metal though.


a plating shop is a good place to turn to in these situations, they know a lot about metals and chemicals, not to mention they have chemicals to remove the deposits, etc. they have chemicals that are not for the do it yourselfer.

 

Honestly these pieces are not salvageable, I'm afraid.

 

Bummer...But, you may be LUCKY....I think I just so happen to have a complete rack I will sell you.
I bought it for a project that I just can't seem to get to. Plus....the EFI thread has changed my mind and if I ever get back to it, I'm going EFI.

I'm 95% sure they are BS34s off a Suzuki....no idea of the year.
Drop me a PM with your email address and I'll snap some photos to see if they would work.
I'll sell the complete rack. I haven't touched it since I took it out of the shipping box 2 years ago. I'll take the loss and $100 will get it to your door if you can use them.

 

Im not familiar with the little "choke bodies" you are referring to. There is NO possible way the vinegar for 24 hours would dissolve metal parts, nope, uh uh, not gonna happen. The parts must be made of something else, or were already so oxidized from time and the elements that what you simply did was soften up what was already shot and just barely holding together to begin with.

Vinegar or as many people like to use Lemon juice is a VERY WEAK acid and is perfectly safe to use on metal parts. You just might to make sure your parts arent already crumbling in your hands to begin with.

 

Well, you can say it's not gonna happen, no possible way, etc.....but apparently it DID.

vinegar is usually a 5% acid solution, but it is possible to get higher concentrations. Obviously, it seems there was a pre-existing condition, but that's basically beside the point. The point is the carbs have been etched beyond use and he needs another set.

I don't use an acid cleaner....I use a base cleaner, myself.

Dave Fox

 

my point is the damage was already there, the metal was already heavily oxidized and probably on the verge of collapse before the acid was applied. Probably any solution would have done the same thing. Its no reason to worry about using vinegar as a weak acid solution in the future.

 

I think the Vinegar did you in.
Even diluted 50:50 with water is still strong enough to do some damage.

I have been sent some really nasty Carbs to service over the years.

I haven't seen any with a degree of oxidation that resisted being brought-back to looking fine after being sent-out to have the dull gray powdery glaze and dark green fungus and tarnish stripped off at a Media Blaster.

Baking Soda, Plastic Beads or Walnut Shell will strip-off neglect and restore the alloy to how it looked when new.

 

I have to agree. Vinegar works great, in 2~3 hours. If you left someting soaking in it for 24 hours, it is possible for damage to occur, depending on the alloy.

However, it is more likely that it simply "ate" the corrosion, and the parts were already toast.

 

I wonder if those parts are pot metal.

I was removing rust from the tank on a 1982 Honda CX500. The petcock nipple on it had an uncommon thread I didn't have a cap for so I did it with the petcock on, which I've done before. The acid ate right through the valve (the part with the ON, OFF, RES) handle without damaging the body at all. On inspection I think the valve itself was pot metal, not aluminum.

 

+1

 

Thanks to everyone who has posted to this thread so far. I'm able to provide a little more info and some pics now.

Here is the little choke body and I think you can clearly see that this was not just surface corrosion that was removed by the vinegar. In fact, it looked perfectly fine when I tossed it in. Now, not so much.

This is what I've been wondering as well. For comparison and to test your ideas about how corrosive the vinegar might be, how long to soak, etc, I took a junk XJ650 carb body (BS32) and tossed it into the same container of vinegar and left it for 24 hours. It looks fine. Here's a photo of the 650 carb on the left and the not-yet-cleaned Suzuki (BS34) on the right.



Because of the angle at which the photo is taken it's a little deceptive in that the BS34 is actually/obviously bigger than the BS32. You can see where the choke body mounts on the side of the Suzuki carb. I'm not sure if you can really tell the difference in the materials of the two carbs or not. The BS34 is just duller, darker, and MUCH heavier. That caught my attention when I took the pics just now, so I weighed them. The BS32 weighs 356g and the BS34 is a whopping 758g. They are definitely not made out of the same alloy. Could the entire carb body on the Suzuki be pot metal?

 

More than twice as heavy? It shore ain't aluminum; or if it is it's one FUNKY alloy.

Are the Suzuki carbs Mikunis (as in SAYS Mikuni on them somewhere) or just Mikuni-pattern?

That degree of destruction is frightening.

 

Well, the Suzuki carb bodies themselves have no identifying marks on them - such as the embossed symbol seen above on the side of the XJ body. However, the "hats" say Mikuni Kogyo Co. on them and the Clymer manual identifies the carbs as Mikuni BS34s. Seems pretty definitive.

 

The Mikunis on my 550s have "Mikuni" emblazoned on them as well.

They might be Suzuki-built under license from Mikuni, using gawd-only-knows what metal, with some Mikuni-sourced parts.

 

Well, I'm going to be real careful from here forward, I'll tell you that. It all makes me curious about the properties of various alloys. Why are these so heavy? Are they full of lead? Does the type of acid in vinegar break down lead or is there some other specific compound that can't handle the acid? I might ask my friend down at the welding and metal fabrication shop. They know a lot about different kinds of metal.

 

Do a "Google" search on acetic acid, the acid in vinegar.

This is from the Wiki page: "mildly corrosive to metals including iron, magnesium, and zinc, forming hydrogen gas and salts called acetates. Aluminium, when exposed to oxygen, forms a thin layer of aluminium oxide on its surface, which is relatively resistant to the acid"

It might almost be worth taking the ruined part to a metallurgist and finding exactly what it IS made from.

 

I discussed this with the welder here in the complex this morning.

According to him, pot metal has a lot of zinc in it. According to Wikipedia pot metal is primarily zinc. The article also says that pot metal is susceptible to damage from airborne acids. I presume soaking it in acid can also damage it :lol:

A quick search shows that zinc has more than 2.5 times the density of aluminum.

I see what appears to be crystal grains on the RH carburetor. They remind me of the grain visible on the underside of the die cast cars I had as a kid.

 

Well there's your answer.

They're "Hot Wheels'" Mikunis!

 

Ha! Who knew? Very interesting. Thanks, guys.

I think I'm going to post a link to this thread over on the GS site for the benefit of other unsuspecting would-be carb cleaners.

 

excellent hypothesis Carl!

 

Is this still your position PTS?

 

I am wondering if there wasn't some sort of electrolytic circuit set up with the vinegar and whatever it was setting on or in. I know my friend freaks out if I wash her silverware in dishwater containing bleach and any other metals as it will stain up the silver something fierce.

 

I guess I should clarify, sure. I was under the delusion that no sane manufacturing company would EVER make carburetors out of pot metal. Being the only carbs Ive ever worked on were Aluminum or an alloy in that family, I made that statement, and that statement still holds true. I also believe that whatever metal those parts are made out of, that they were already in SEVERE oxidated state and that the acid simply ate what was already broken down to at least some degree.

Remember, its all about chemical bonds, and if the chemical bonds are gone, then its going to fail. Vinegar is still a VERY weak acid and has LITTLE effect on aluminum, steel, and brass, the metals 99.9% of our bikes are made out of. I guess my failure is in the fact that I just didnt take into account stupidity.

 

No, I would say your failure was that you made an absolute statement that was simply wrong. I almost never get into these kinds of arguments because they usually end up just being testosterone contests. However, even when you want to be helpful, dishing out inaccurate information in an authoritative way is just not helpful to anyone on the list.

Just because something exists outside of your knowledge or experience doesn't make it impossible. Just live and learn. Admit when you're wrong. Otherwise you will damage your credibility and possibly lead someone else down the wrong path.

 

Amen.

Hey, wanna mail me the eaten-up part and I'll take it to a metallurgist here in the Motor City? I'm fascinated to find out exactly what sort of cost-cutting shenanigans Suzuki pulled here. The extreme weight difference has me intrigued.

This is probably another reason you don't see many old Suzukis running around.

 

Sure. I might have your address somewhere already, but why don't you PM me with the details.

I found some of the choke bodies for sale on eBay including the plungers, etc. Cost me $20 each, but at least I can get the things working again.

Thanks!

 

WOW!

Something new every day-what a great site!

 

Amen, to that!

By contrast, I'm getting crucified over on the Suzuki GSResources site. I thought they'd be appreciative of the report, too, but instead they're very offended and think that I've maligned their bikes. Fun.

 

They don't need to shoot the messenger. The bloody carbs weigh DOUBLE what a "real" Mikuni weighs; there has to be something to it.

 

possibly.
What the jury is still out on is whether the "metal parts" were actually disolved, or if what was disolved was mearly a thick layer of oxidation on top or that the metal was already damaged in a way that the vinegar just exploited.

keep that in mind before you go saying "I told ya so" and I'll keep in mind that I was probably wrong. Im human, it happens.


edit: As far as my credibility goes, Im not the least bit concerned. Im a "flipper". I buy, fix, and sell and have been doing so for years. Like many forums I join for a short time because I happen to have one of whatever that is, Im not going to be a fixture around here like ol Fitzy. I contribute what I can in exchange for what I take and I move on when the whatever it is in question is out of my stable. This is nothing more than the idle passage of time. Im good at what I do, so I tend to have alot of free time to cruise several forums on any given day.

There are generally two kinds of users on these niche market forums: Noobs and Knowitalls. Im neither of those. Im not so egocentric to think I cant learn something new every day, but neither am I just some guy who fell off a turnip truck and landed on a (insert make model here, in this case XJ750). Forums are full of hyperbole, conjecture, hypothesis, opinion and occasionally some hard facts, all contributed by real people with vastly different experience, skill, and knowledge. They are dynamic forms of communication, but they are not without flaw.


But, thank you for publically bitchslapping me and calling me on the pitfalls of making bold definative statements. In the end here we are, you with screwed up carbs due to your own actions, and me going on another 250 mile ride tomorrow on my perfectly running, and dare I say BEAUTIFUL bike.

 

2 cents here. I work in a high lead enviroment and we get the lead off the floor with vinegar. Smells like a sandwitch but it dissolves it pretty well.

 

Pardon?

Funny, I don't see any site called OldSkoolYamaha anywhere... :lol:

The GSResources has been around a lot longer than XJ Bikes has, and I'd argue (in a friendly manner) that the knowledge level there is a few orders of magnitude higher, due to the extreme performance levels that these old Suzukis are capable of, as a result of the ROCK-SOLID engineering of the motors and chassis, along with the incredible roll-your-own-bike potential resulting from the amazing ability to swap parts from GS to GSXR to Bandit to Hayabusa.

The OP has had the misfortune to run into a certain member there who likes to answer pretty much any question with a put down and a smarmy response. We regulars know him and pretty much ignore him, although he certainly has worthwhile things to say sometimes. As someone has indicated in that thread, there is a constant temptation when accessing a site dedicated to one particular make or model, to come to believe that that particular make or model is somehow the epitome of motorcycle design. In my experience, the guys at XS11.com seem to suffer from this more than most. Having owned both XJ's and GS's, I'd have to give the nod to the GS as the superior bike, if only for their ungodly capability to absorb abuse.

Having said that, I'd have another XJ900 in a heartbeat because I like the styling. I also have an XS650 because I like the funky nature of the bike, so I don't think Yamahas are crap in any way

 

FACT: Vinegar appears to have eaten a part more than just dissolving the crud off of it. Appears.

FACT: The Suzuki "Mikuni" weighs easily twice as much as an aluminum Hitachi body from an XJ, and is not emblazoned with the Mikuni branding.

EVERYTHING else is just theory and conjecture unless we find out exactly what sort of metal the part was cast from.

And I aim to try to do just that, out of "mechanical curiousity" more than anything else.

I'm not doubting Suzuki's engineering prowess; but if the carbs were cast from 'pot metal' then I am doubting their intended longevity; or maybe the bean counters beat out the engineers on this one.

Oh, and one last thing: If I'm a "fixture" around here, it's because of my long term involvement with the Yamaha XJ series of motorcycles. I don't build bikes to "flip" I build mine to be ridden, BY ME. And then I do just that; and "bank" the experiences. Which I share to try to help people. No other motivation than "giving back" to the site that helped me overcome a couple of obstacles with my first XJ.

Now I'm gonna go ride MY sweet-running XJ the 58+ miles home.

 

Noobs and Knowitalls, PTSenterprises, well, noobs is right, as everyony that joins is a noob to the forum, Knowitalls ? what about all the other guys that just ride thier bikes, keep them running & share the experiences. I've been around xj bikes for quite a while & with a few exceptions, the guys are helpful & often amussing. I too restore diferent bikes & sell them on, for someone else to enjoy, I also drop into other bike forums if I need help & I always respect the members for their specialist knowledge & they always come through for me. Wiz.

 

The "fixtures" make sites like this one.

Every site I'm on (XS11.com, GSResources, XS650.com, XJ Bikes, OldSkoolSuzuki, etc etc) is a treasure trove of knowledge shared by people who weren't afraid to be the first one to try something, or hack away at a problem for months on end to see an idea come to fruition. It makes it all that much easier for the rest of us who come after.

Roll on fellas!

 

pot metal isn't necessarily bad stuff, back in the day a lot of things were made from it, it just doesn't like to be soaked in vinegar all day.
seems your not the first one to find out the hard way link
now we all know, thanks for the tip, we're all one step closer to know-it -alls

 

I wasnt using the term "fixture" as a slur. Its simply that some people find a home and live there all their lives, some like to move around and try different places. Neither philosophy is a bad thing, it all depends on your perspective.

 

Now if we can just come up with a way to identify pot metal without soaking it in acid for 24 hours........ :wink:

 

We're ALL fixtures here. This is the Hotel XJ-fornia.......we all checked in, but we can never leave.

Dave (one of the know-it-alls who is waiting for another know-it-all to find out what kind of metal it IS so that he doesn't screw up the carbs on his GT750 Water Buffalo when he get gets to tearing into that one) Fox

Thanks for the heads-up, Baytone!

dave

 

Go get yourself some BERRYMAN CHEMDIP and soak those babies overnight. I bet that'll get that crud off for ya. I've used it many times. Just make sure ya pull the seals and any rubber or plastic parts off before soaking.

 

Now THAT'S funny! Quote of the month!

Thanks to all the fixtures that have helped me so far... :wink:

I know this is a radical concept, but what about contacting Mikuni directly to ask them about the composition of their carbs?

http://www.mikuni.com/fs-profile.html

 

I don't think they're genuine Mikunis; they aren't "branded" like the Mikunis on the XJs. I suspect they're "license manufactured" Mikunis, and Suzuki (or a supplier) used a different metal.

 

I like Chemdip too, especially when things are caked with varnish. Removes it quickly, but destroys rubber and plastics.

I have a suggestion; I've done this to other carbs with success. Get an ultrasonic cleaner.

Here's a half-decent one from harbor freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/25-liter-u ... 95563.html

It's kind of small, and not super powerful. However, professional and commercial ones are stupid expensive.

The cleaning powder that is also available probably should not be used. It says right on the bottle that it's not for aluminum or magnesium. I've used it anyway, and have seen no damage, but use at your own risk.

Use the heater on it, or fill with hot water, get it real hot, put some sort of cleaner in the water, and throw the carb in. Take it apart first. plastic and rubber will be ok as long as the cleaner used is compatible. Do not use with flammable liquids. Let it run for about five minutes. Check. Do it again. Put the carb in different positions; the machine has areas inside that provide more ultrasonic action than others. I've run carbs in there for about 15 minutes, with breaks in between to not kill the machine. They are rather light duty, I've abused mine but it hasn't quit yet.

Something to consider. I've also used it to clean corrosion off of small delicate stuff without damage. Will not remove scaley rust. WILL remove corrosion from small passages given enough time and careful positioning in the machine to find the most active areas.

 

Also, read the reviews on the machine before you buy; there are a couple things to note. Seal the tub against the plastic cover to avoid condensation from getting into the machine. Greasy, varnishy deposits are better removed with a chemical solvent before a trip through an ultrasonic cleaner.

 

OK, I got the valve bodies in the mail today.

This was not a case of the corrosion being eaten away; the vinegar attacked these big time.

My 16 year old son was curious as to what came. I showed them to him; and he said "what the heck happened to these?" I explained that they'd been soaked in vinegar, maybe a bit too long. He said "why would you soak them in vinegar?" I explained that to remove corrosion I often soak zinc-plated or other hardware bits and sometimes even aluminum in vinegar.

He looked at me and said "these aren't aluminum, DAD; they're way too heavy."

D'oh...

We'll find out what they're made of.

 

pics?!??

 

i'll bet their not rhodium

 

Raven, he posted pics back on the first page.

 

This is like an episode of NCIS.
I can't wait for the next episode when Fitz tells us the composition of the mystery metal!
Well done fellas. I love this site