Setting floats question

Man this is some frustrating shite!

I am using the clear tube method with a 3mm line on the bowl for reference. Carb rack is employed and carbs are level on both planes.
4 screws are in each float bowl,gaskets off. Screws are snugged but not cranked.

So...the question is: Should I be getting any seepage at all between the carb body and float bowl if floats are properly set?

Using a level laid along the line on the float bowl it appears that the top of the level is matched to the bottom of the meniscus, yet, fuel still seeps from the float bowls at the joint with the carb body.

 

Put the gaskets back on they're a couple MM thick.

 

Now I'm really confused...I thought seting the float levels required the gaskets to be off?

Does it not matter?

 

It matters; it changes how the bowl sits in relation to the body.

Why did you think the gaskets need to be off? The factory book includes a procedure for checking the levels on the bike, (to the same spec) which would tend to indicate they're installed.

Put the gaskets back on, they're a couple of MM thick.

 

While you're putting the gaskets on you might as well lower the float level. If it's spilling out the top without gaskets they're at least 4mm too high.

 

Ah it becomes clearer now!

I think I got the idea from this:

"Third is the Float Height. With the carbs inclined so that the float tang is just resting on the float needle, which is shown
later, a measurement can be taken from the gasket edge (minus the gasket) of the carb body to any given point on the
floats. "


But that is just for setting the floats dry isn't it?


D'oh, methinks I carried some info into the wrong operation...explains a LOT!

 

Compound all of the above with the fact that gasoline is a low viscosity, light, free flowing liquid. I've seen it "climb" vertical surfaces to wet them by at least an eighth of an inch above the static level.

I'm not surprised at all that it seeps out of a seam that is supposed to have a gasket but doesn't.

 

Well tried the gaskets on but still having problems.

I'll get one or 2 set perfectly then as I work the next 2 the levels will change.

Sometimes one i have made a minute adjustment to will suddenly free flow out the airports on the air intakes...sigh, what an absolutely retarded method of adjusting a mechanical device.

I think my pins are the culprit here as the ends looks..well, not factory machined. The more I look at them the more I think someone made them...maybe from freaking nails or something

 

The pins HAVE to allow as little friction as poss
for the floats to work right ALL the time-get new ones
if you think you need to.

I even polish mine with 1000 grit wet/dry or better so I know
they won't hang up.

 

They were polished with 1000 and 1200, there is something else amiss here.

Yep, new ones on the way...when I take the old ones out I'm going to try a roll test and see if they are bent/warped

 

Make sure the pins are free to spin in the little folded "pockets" they go through in the floats. Even a perfectly straight pin can bind if the metal tabs on the float get out of alignment. Frustrating as heck when it happens too.

 

The Carbs ... as they sit ... on the bike ... on the workstand ... are not LEVEL.

Put a miniature level on the No. 1 Carb and you will see that without Gaskets the Bowls will leak.

If you suspect that the Float Hinge Pins are binding, ... you can "Machine" them.
Chuck them in a Electric Drill.
High-speed sand them with 1000.

If the GEOMETRY of the Float, Tang, Wire and Pin is questionable in causing a Float to Stick, ... sometimes reversing the Guide Wire "180" on the Tang will help.

If the whole Float seems to have excessive "Side-to-side" movement within the Pillars ... center the Float by adding 2mm miniature Flat Washers as Thrust Washers.

 

Rick,

The float needles and valve assemblies are the new aftermarket variety.

Right now I have been positioning the wire guide of the needle with the "ears" in towards the pilot/main jets.

I bought more float pins from Chacal and that doesn't seem to help at all.

So, reverse the wire guides so that the "ears" face towards the drain port and washers on each side of the float to center?

 

I did a little video with my "clear cup" method that brought about some fiesty discussion.
It is NOT...repeat NOT a substitute for the clear tube method, but what I considered to be, a quicker method to get close if you have problematic floats that can be very annoying.

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=30833.html

I had a rack that I left sit in the vise full of fuel for a week and a half. It seemed to keep "adjusting itself" and that's when I did this video. I'm not sure if the fuel was swelling the rubber tips a bit or what was happening but after adjusting them a couple times they settled down.

 

Let me throw this out there and see if it helps any.

Some time back, I was fighting the fuel levels in my X tooth and nail; first they'd settle in, then at least one needle would stick open and the carbs would overflow. Tried changing needles and seats, all to no avail. What finally got them to settle down, you ask?

There are two tangs on the floats; one for the needle, and the other rests against one of the float pillars; this determines how low the floats hang. Mine were hanging too low, pulling the needles off vertical and causing them to intermittently bind.

Once I raised that, the fuel levels fell into place.

 

I wondered about that schmuckaholic..not sure how much to even try moving them though.
I don't suppose anyone has a picture of that side tab from some floats set correctly that I could use for reference?

 

Set them so that the float only hangs low enough to fully open the valve. Take a good look at the needle. Once it has travelled the distance from where it seats to the tip, it's open fully. Measure the length of the whole tip. Set the floats so that their downward movement is that distance or a tad more; that's all that's needed. If they drop down far enough to go "over center" then you will have all sorts of wonky problems. I can't give you a pic because my Hitachis are currently on the bike, and all my spares are Mikunis.

 

Sounds like I got another project for tomorrow!

I sure hope this works as i'm about out of options at this point

 

When I do battle with an Intermittently Sticking Float I do a Full Monte.

Dress the Valve Seat Bore with 2500.
Polish the Bore
Remove the Seat
Use vinyl tape - tape 3 Q-Tips to a Finishing Nail. Chuck it in a Dremel. Polish the Valve Seat Bore with Jewelers Rouge.
Ck the Geometry --
If the Float Pin gets c0ckeyed when the Floats are moved, ...
a) Try putting the Wire Clip on the other side.
b) Swap Wire Clips from the Old Pin

c) Replace the Pins with Spring-loaded Viton-tipped Pins.

 

Also.............. From experience.........

I fought the same kind of issue this Spring.

Upon closer inspection, I had found a 'tiny' crack in one of my floats that, over time, created a heavy float.

Stephen

 

Truly rare. The floats are solid blocks of plastic.

 

Okay Fitz I have a couple questions for you so I can have a better picture of what exactly I need to do:

When you say "Set them so that the float only hangs low enough to fully open the valve" does this refer to the plunger in the needle or the entire needle itself?

In other words should the needle body move down within the valve seat or I am adjusting the needle plunger so that it is fully extended?

 

-When the floats are "up" in their 'floating' position, the needles are stopped in their seats, shutting off fuel flow. That's the float level adjustment that's so critical, and the reason for the "clear tube method" etc.

-When the floats hang down, they only need to be down a few MM, just to lift the needles fully off their seats. The distance required is only the distance of about half the height of the tapered tip. If they go down TOO far, they'll want to bind rather than lift back up and operate the needles smoothly.

-You need to hang the carbs right side up, and as Rick says, carefully examine the geometry of the floats as they go up and down and interact with their needles. Make sure the floats aren't "side binding" on the pillars. Make sure they aren't pushing their needles at crazy angles.

 

Okay I get that Fitz...can you maybe explain what that plunger affair within the needle body does? I'm still trying to get straight on it's purpose

 

If you're asking about the little plunger being operated by the float, it's the actual VALVE. It shuts the incoming flow of fuel off when the float bowl is full to the proper level. The float floats up, pushes the needle plunger's tapered tip into the valve seat and fuel stops flowing into the carb (in theory anyway, that's how it's SUPPOSED to work.)

Then as the fuel in the bowl is used, the float goes down (riding on the fuel like a cork bobbing in water) and the needle valve is lifted away from its seat, allowing fuel into the float bowl again until the float goes back up and pushes the valve closed. Thus maintaining a preset level of fuel in the float bowls; that level is what we adjust.

The OTHER "plunger affair" on top of the carb is the enrichment valve; is that what you're asking about?

 

No not the enrichment valve.

I'm referring to the plunger on the needle valve itself.

Well, if it is supposed to move the cap up to close of the valve, mine don't and they are all brand new. the old ones I took out out don't push up on the cap either that's why I am confused as to how the assembly is supposed to work.

If they don't move the caps, then the only way the valve opens/closes is by the movement up and down of the entire needle.

Or, if it is like you say then these needles are defective.

I'm trying to narrow the problem down before I go bending another part of the float arms as if that is not the problem I'll just be creating a whole host of other nightmares to deal with.

 

Figured this would make comms easier...

"Cap" is on top...."Plunger is on the bottom"





"Plunger" depressed, no movement of "Cap"




All 4 new ones are like this, as are the old ones that I replaced.
So I agree, I would think that the plunger moves the cap to close the opening of the seat...though I do not know that for a fact, it is educated guess.

OR

Does the entire needle move with the float and the plunger has another purpose?

 

It doesn't take very much pressure to stop the flow of fuel. As far as I can figure the spring loaded plunger is there to give the float some extra movement while still closing the valve. I had a Kawasaki with float problems it turned out to be that plunger was stuck up in the needle and not stopping the fuel flow. Cleaned and freed the plunger and the problem was fixed.

 

Okay, I just cut open one of the old ones and yeah, that's what the assembly looks like it does...keeps some "backpressure" on the float.

The cap is set on fixed stud on the top and the plunger goes into the hollow cavity of the needle but not all the way thru.

Makes a lot more sense now that I have seen it.

 

Agreed with threadbrewer. The entire needle is actuated by the float to shut off fuel flow. I don't think my float pins have that "plunger."

I seems like a nice design tho, as it probably prevents a bending in the float tang if the fuel sloshes around and the bowl fills with more fuel than intended and increases the pressure on the float needle. <-just my guess

 

Those are the "spring-loaded, viton-tipped needles" Rick was referring to.

The "spring-loaded" plunger on the bottom is only found on top-of-the-line float needles. Most are simply solid; the spring plunger does exactly what you think it does; puts some "preload" on the float valve. Another reason they need to be wet-set; the amount of that preload required for a particular needle to shut off fuel flow can vary from needle to needle.

Adjusted properly, those work much better than solid needles.

 

That makes sense too ManBoat13!

I think I am closing in on some of the problem....

Inverted carbs as per Rick/Fitzs suggestion.

I looked down the line of floats from the side first. I was keying in on where the bottom (remember, they are inverted) of each float lay in relation to the pilot jet.

There were two obvious differences in #2 & #4 ... both were almost at the bottom of each jet (remember, they are inverted ;-) ) WAY higher than #1 & #3 which seemed to lie just about even with the seem of the pilot jet and it's pillar.

I played with the side tab (let's call it the "pillar stop") on #2 float and it is now close to #'s 1 & 3...

Now, as to "play" in the needles.

The only needle I could get to budge was #1 by lifting "up" on the float.
#'s 2,3,4 would not move.

#1 moved at a guess .25 - .5 mm...pretty tight area to try and get a measuring instrument in there so...

After playing with the tang of #2 I now see it budge just a little bit when I lift the float.

So now I know 1 of the problems and how to correct it

My next question is...which is correct? Should I adjust them all to sit about at the jet pillar/pilot jet seam...or lower more inline with where #2 & #4 started at?

 

You can save a whole lot of fooling around if you simply adjust the Floats "By The Book"
That means: "Clear Tube Method"

Make a Tool.
8-Inches of Clear Tube
1-Right Angle Hose Union
2-Inches Black Hose

(You can make ALL 4 for under 5-Bucks.)

Attach the Tools and tie the Vinyl Hose to the Upper Rail so the Hose rests along side the Bowl at the Screw and Washer.
Level the Rack.
Fill the Bowls and Open the Drains.

Carefully determine which Carbs need an adjustment.
If one or more are OK ... select the BEST one to use for "Measuring"
Drain Carbs
Remove Bowls.

Invert Carbs.
Level.
MEASURE the Height of the Floats on the CORRECT Carb.

(Simply done. Glue a Toothpick to the Pocket Clip of a Precision Ruler)

Place the Ruler on the BASE of the Carb.
Lower the Toothpick to the Top of the Correct Float.
Get measured height of Correct Float.

Set others needing adjustment to the precise same height.
Re-Test.

FUEL Level within GREEN or YELLOW Range = OK (Specs)
Upper RED = Too High. Flooding
Lower Red = Too Low. Potential starvation.

 

Rick,

I appreciate the attempt to help but, that is EXACTLY what I have spent 40+ hours doing...and the levels cont'd to fluctuate wildly.

That is the point of this thread...There is something else amiss that is preventing the floats from being set easily

In other words YES, I "dry set" the floats, then clear tube wet set them...all to no avail

 

Wait-- so you're saying that there's no "play" in the needles; as in, when the floats are all the way down, the needles aren't coming down out of their seats by a few MM?

As in, not opening?

See below:

 

Well that's what seems weird...obviously from my comments when right side up and doing the wet test sometimes they overflow...so fuel is flowing

Yet, when I inverted them to check as you recommended...no, I could not get 3 of them to "unseat"....

By playing a little with the "pillar stop" I now have all 4 that will unseat with slight upward pressure on the float.

 

You have me confused.
I'll bet I'm not the only one.

It's not clear to me what you adjusted when you did the DRY Setting.

The Float Pin should be lifted-out of the Seat when you Lift the Floats to check Geometry.

You bent the Float "Tang" ... Not the Floats, ... right?

 

When I did the dry test yes, I bent the tangs.
That is not what we are covering in this thread though Rick.

This thread is about the fact that after dry setting...after countless hours of wet setting .... doing everything by the book in both procedures I am still getting wonky fluctuations in fuel levels..they won't stay constant.

So after talking at length with Chacal and others here we are wondering if the pillar stops needed adjustment.

That is now what I am moving, the pillar stops and then re-adjusting the tang slightly so I can ge a slight amount of needle movement when the carb bodies are inverted and I lift the float.

Bear in mind, that one or two of the P.O.s have been in these carbs... all the slots on the jets were f-d up, one of the main needles had been broken then re-sharpened and who knows what kind of adjustments were made to get it to "run" ;-)

 

You've spent way too much time ironing this out.

How many Floats are funny-acting?

I'll donate one or two, ... just to end the misery this must be for you.

 

3 of the 4...I may take ya up on that ;-)

Gonna try wet setting again tomorrow/Monday if it doesn't go well I'll hit ya up for some cheap floats LOL!

Gotta have a good sense of humor for this stuff, eh?

 

I can't find the great write up someone did a while ago...I think it was Schmuckaholic/Len?
Lots of good pics.

Just wanted to double check that you DO have a soft washer under the seat (where it threads into the carb body)
If it's not there, the gas will flow right around the needle and into the bowl.

I DOUBT that's your problem because you said they shut off sometimes and a leak like that is not intermittent...it usually leaks all the time.

Take some pics of the underside of the carb and post...from the side too.

Floats could be upside down....but again I doubt it.


EDIT>>> I found it!
http://mok.fileave.com/setting%20fuel%20levels.pdf

DAMN...that float write up had awesome pics.

 

Yeah that is the link I have been using for setting the floats wet. God stuff indeed!

Mine came with a steel washer, not a soft washer or copper like the originals so...not sure on that but Chacal said it was correct.

Floats are correctly oriented , I make sure every time I make an adjustment.

It's really been a head scratcher and that's no lie!

 

just throwing this out there, forgive me if it sounds stupid as football bat.
with the carbs off and inverted, pull the floats, pins and needles.
one at a time dry fit a needle into each seat. move freely? I had a set of 4 NEW kits, cheaper "great deal" well the needles were not actually consistant in size and one of the new seat seals leak right out the pack.
If you dont have a consistant needle or a good fit it can bind, made me suspect the valve seat too.
J&L is what I used the second time and not a problem since.
also you may can check all floats for warping or out of 90 as in out of true shape.
you been everywhere else just tryin to think outside the box.
Rick's thrust washer was a good idea too.

 

Yeah I will check that too!

I really like Ricks washer idea too, went to get some on Fri but they closed early (2 mm is hard to find)...will go back Mon and pick some up.

 

Okay so was able to play with setting the floats wet for a little bit today.

Not too bad and certainly results seemed more predictable than they were the other times.

Right now I have all 4 sitting even with the head of the bowl screws at the meniscus. By my measurements that puts me 9mm away from our ideal level of 3mm below the carb base.

This is what I have come to view as the DANGER zone ;-) In the past I have spent WAY to much time going over/under until I got it "just right"...then they would freak out so this time I'm gonna do something different.

Tomorrow I'll go get (hopefully) the 2mm washers as Rick suggested and fine tune the levels once those are on.

I do have some side-to-side play in the floats but have no frame of reference to know what is "excessive" so...we'll see what happens.



Oh forgot to mention....I did check the needles with the floats removed and yes, they do seal/stop flow and they allow flow when I drop them so at this point I am ruling the needles/seats out as the problem.

If I still have a booger of a time after the washers I will try polishing them but as they are all brand new I doubt that is gonna help much but who knows?

 

If you are within the Green and Yellow, ... you're good!

 

Really? That works for Hitachis?

If so that's friggin awesome! I thought ideally I would be about 5mm higher than I am but according to the pic, even with the head of the bowl screw is good.

Still gonna try your washer idea as that should nullify any side to side hang up issues.

 

Might be that those Float Pins aren't the right ones.

Look at your Wire Clips.
Those are for a Float with a NARROW "Tang"

Narrow Tang: ==> ()|....||....|()

Your Wire Clips probably need to fit a WIDE Tang Float.

Wide Tang: ==> ()|...|::|...|()

 

A good source for tiny washers is some obsolete electronic gizmo.

But, the Hardware Section of a well-stocked ACE Hdwe Store will have them in a pull-out drawer.

 

ummm.well the needles are from Chacal and for hitachi carbs...how would I go about getting different clips that fit both the needles and the tangs?

I do have 3 off my OEM needles... I'll check those tomorrow and maybe swap em out then just pick up another OEM needle used and swap the clip from that one?