Starting after carb rebuild and valve adjustment...?

So I just rebuilt, cleaned, and jetted my carbies. In the process I re shimmed my valves. So I mounted the carbs on the bike and tried to start her up. I layed on the start button until my battery died and never once sounded like starting. Is there a trick to it? I see the fuel in my fuel filter so whats next? Also it has new plugs gapped to the right specs.

 

Did you set the petcock to prime?

How did you verify fuel float levels?

Are the plugs wet or dry?

The battery may also have enough juice to spin the motor but not enough to fire the plugs

 

Here's a few items to check

For starters make sure your battery is fully charged.

Set your petcock on the PRIME position and watch your filter for evidence of fuel flow. Once that stops open the carb bowl drain screw on the far right carb just a bit to verify that fuel is in the carb bowl, then close the screw.

Be sure and set the choke and make sure it is connected up and working.

Make sure the vacuum hose from the #3 cylinder to the petcock is connected up.

Next check for spark on any cylinder.

Go the the store and get some starting fluid. One at a time remove the rubber cap on the top of the carb-to-head rubber boot, and shoot some fluid into each boot, then replace the cap.

Mine had no trouble firing up after a carb rebuild. Its usually just a matter of making sure everything is hooked up.

 

I did not adjust my float levels they were fine before I pulled it apart... The petcock was set on prime, havent checked the plugs. I hope it was the battery Its charging now so we will see how it goes.

 

If you removed the floats from the pin, and you have to to clean the carbs properly, it's worth it to check again. If they're still good you spend a couple minutes. If not you save a bunch of time fighting with it.

 

Very true ill check it out.

 

So I got her running today she idles beautifully, and I swear my heart sunk a little when she actually turned over. Yet there is still my initial problem... It will start and run in neutral all day long but, as soon as I put it in gear it dies automatically. If I try to start it again in gear (1st or 2nd) the starter will just turn and turn and turn. As soon as I put it back in neutral it turns right over. Sounds like a sidestand switch but thats impossible because the wiring is all minimal on the bike. NO SIDESTAND SWITCH??? the prong on the TCI is open. Anyone have any ideas? its not the carbs not the TCI (just replaced it).

 

Dies how? Does it seem like an electrical death as in no hesitation whatsoever- just stops, or is it more like a dragging it down death-like its bogging down and then kaput.

Before would it only die after you came to a complete stop? Have you tried rolling with it running in N then popping up to 2nd?

 

Kinda does all of the above it just dies but bogs out a slight bit. It used to be fine for about 2 miles, wouldnt have the problem at all until I came to a stop. It would die at the stop then not start again unless in neutral and all that jazz. But now it is doing it right off the bat. This is the first time it had ran in about a month. So its not like its overheating. It not spark because it runs fine in neutral. Its not TCI cause switch prong usnt even plugged in. Clutch maybe??? I just adjusted it and its pretty damn tight and still nothing? someone please help I need to feel the wind in my hair (even though I dont have any)

 

Did the bike seem fine while running and going through the gears? In other words was there any resistance getting in and out of gears? Did it shift smoothly? Your entire safety system is disabled right? Because if it's non-functioning and there is no alternative wire that allows it to kill the engine-then it must be something related to engine/transmission relationship. Are you sure it's running good on all 4? All four pipes getting hot?

At this point if your sure about the engine being ALL good in Neutral, then I think your clutch is to blame. It might be sticking or stuck-did the bike ever sit for a long time? Try the rolling shift to second and see if it will go. Unable to disengage and it will die for sure when you reach a speed (or are already there) that is too slow for the engine to stay above stall speed.

 

I had a guy roll his bike in here for the same problem.

After looking in the Gas Tank and seeing how little Fuel there was, ... I poured a few quarts of Gas in the Tabk, ... switched the Petc0ck to PRIME, ... an remarked at what a lovely shade of red his face was.

(If he's reading this, ... I want my ColorTune Kit back, please!)

 

Yes, before it ran fine through all gears... I did a compression test and im running 150 on 1,2,3, and 145 on 4. Havent had a chance to feel the pipes for heat yet. There is no safety switches on the bike whatsoever. I did come outside one day to it sitting on its side couldnt have been more than 10 minutes. I live in an apartment and kids are all about vandalism around here. bike didnt sit for too long, maybe a month at the most. Now that you mention the bump start in second, I did get it to run when this happend before. I pushed it through an intersection with a slight downhill and all the sudden i popped the clutch and she started and rode her home for the rest of the way ( about 1/2 mile).

 

String those little rug-rats up by their fingernails! Or maybe their parents need some public humiliation-that's criminal and just plain wrong.

So let's get you riding-If I'm reading you right, you're having the issue either from 'N' when the bike is sitting and you try to go to 1st, or while you've been riding (back when you could) and you come to a stop and again are going for 1st-Yes? If so your clutch looks guilty, or it's adjustment, but I'm betting internals not adjustment. These wet clutches are very tough, and very well designed-but they must have clean, unbent, undamaged plates, no broken teeth, no bad bearings, no bent parts etc to work right.

And while riding it might be hard to diagnose a problem that would crop up when your sitting with the back tire stopped and loaded. For example: I can shift through every gear w/o using my clutch (not that I would) as long as my tire is rolling and I do it at the "right" point in rpms. But if I tried to shift into first with only partial clutch it would stall. And since you have no safety system it does you no good to pull in your clutch to start either. So your stuck with going from 'N'. I don't think your clutch is toast or you would have noticed it more while riding, but could be just enough to cause your issue.

You need advice from someone who has actually pulled an XJ clutch apart and fixed one-I rebuilt a Kawasaki enduro clutch but it wasn't designed the same. There is a write up on here about clutches and seems like both Rick and Bigfitz have experience with em. What else could it be? Unless your bike is possessed in which case let's call a Catholic priest.

 

Yes I do need to pound on those kids doors and have a little "talk". As for the clutch matter, I asked a buddy who isnt farmiliar with this bike but bikes in general and he said that it could be that the plates are sticking...? I did have gas in the crankcase before and drained and refilled but maybe just maybe the thinned oil affected the plates somehow? Back when I was riding the bike it would die as soon as I clutched and coasted the bike would die and not start back up in gear, or bump while still coasting.

 

IF, ... the Bike will run in Neutral ... but shuts-down the instant it's shifted into Gear ... the first thing to Troubleshoot is:
Safety Switches
Safety Relays
Safety Systems Wiring.

What Safety related Switches do you have in place?

 

So I had a chance to mess with the bike a little bit today... After feeling the pipes cylinder 3 and 4 were NOT hot. Cylinder 1 and 2 WERE hot. Below is a picture of the plug out of cylinder 2. Cylinder 1 was a kind of a brownish white, almost tan. I took a short video of it running and then dying when putting in gear. Im going back to the basics on this. What does a motor need to run, air, fuel, and spark. Well it has air, it has fuel, So im starting to think its a coil especially because cyl. 3 & 4 arent firing. Any ideas guys? I could really use the help.



Video-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlfOIAX ... 7bDpLvzRPN

 

You need to check your float levels. I'll bet that is your problem

 

The coils fire:

LEFT COIL = 1 & 4
RIGHT COIL = 2 & 3

So if 1 & 2 are firing, and your coils are hooked up correctly, it can't be a coil.

A wire or plug boot, maybe, but not a coil.

 

After watching the video, are you absolutely sure, double and triple checked, that there isn't a safety relay wire still connected somewhere?

If safeties are completely disconnected, it's got to be the clutch.

But regardless, you have to double check those coils.

 

Unless the coil wires were put on wrong to begin with......for example: instead of putting the wires to 1 and 4 they were put on as 1 and 2. Then 1 and 2 would fire, not at the right time..........3 and 4 would do the same. Now, if one coil is dead, then those two cylinders would obviously be off.

So, double-check where your spark plug wires are leading to. Also, check to make sure that you have the correct coil harness clips going to the correct coils. It is possible to have the leads going to the wrong coils, but it would mean some tight stretching to get them that way..

Next thing would be to put a different tci and regulator on and see if that makes a difference. If you have tci breakdown, swapping should eliminate it. If it continues, double-check your timing on the end of the crank. Possible something got jiggled loose or out of place in wrenching for the shims.

 

Inspect the Coils.

The Left Coil fires 1 & 4
Check that the Left Coil''s Spark Plug Wires run to #-1 & #-4
Likewise, ... the Right Coil's Spark Plug Wires run to #-2 & #-3

Once you get that checked:
Take a New Plug and use it to Test for Sparks.
Plug the Test Plug into 1,2,3,& 4 while the Bike is running.
Ground the Test Plug while running the testing.

 

Voltage reg and tci are new, just replaced them.

 

Ok, so then for now we will assume the problem is not there.

Please address the coil/sparkplug wires issue that Rick and I keep harping on.

Dave

 

From your video I can tell you aren't running on all 4-that's a two cylinder gallop if I ever heard one-which would make it even more likely to die as you go for 1st. Although it does look like a safety cut-off with the speed it dies

After making sure your plug wires are going to the right cylinders, check your secondary resistance by placing a meter between plug caps from the same coil. You can also check your spark in the relative dark w/extra plug held up to the engine-should be a nice fat blue spark. But the secondary Ohms will tell you if your coil is good, I'll bet that it is ok.

I suspect your pilot circuit is clogged, or your float levels are too low. When you cleaned your carbs did you pull out your pilot screws and clean the pilot circuit and replace the o-rings? If not that needs to be done. Speaking from personal experience the pilot's passages and jets are tiny and clog easily.

You can try this but no guarantee. Get some good carb cleaner with a plastic straw and while the engine is running spray liberally into the intake of the cold cylinders (since you have pods you can open one side just enough to stick the straw in). You will probably need to rev it a bit to keep it running and it may die-that's ok. Let it sit for 20 minutes and do it again. Then make sure you have good gas, dump some SeaFoam into your tank with your good gas-use your drain screws and release the old gas and introduce the new-then try to get it running again. If it's only light varnish in your circuit this may clear it up.

 

Spraying carb cleaner into a balky CV carb while the engine's running isn't going to do anything except suck carb cleaner into the engine.

Likewise, SeaFoam isn't going to clear a varnished-shut passage.

These carbs draw their fuel vertically through very tiny passages that are vacuum-controlled and "activated." They simply have to be properly cleaned, and adjusted, to work properly (or at all.)

I agree however that you probably still have a plugged pilot circuit or a couple of incorrect float levels, IF it's not a spark plug wire/cap issue.

I didn't go back and see if anybody's explained that these plug caps screw onto/into the wires. There's a threaded spike inside that goes into the core of the wire. Unscrew the offending plug cap(s) and lop about 1/4"~3/8" off the end of the wire and screw the cap back on.

Check inside the plug caps and be sure the resistor core isn't loose, there are two slots on either side of the hole for the plug's terminal, allowing the core to be engaged by a screwdriver. Gently ensure the cores are tight.

Stop worrying about what happens when you drop it into gear until it's running on all 4.

 

Didn't get into addressing re-seating the wire caps til I could be sure that the wires are running to the right places to begin with. So once we know that (which we still haven't been told), we canstart working our way back if needed..............

But yeah, make sure that the caps are on correctly...............

Dave

 

Sounds good guys thanks again I have a three day weekend so hopefully I'll have enough time to settle this issue.

 

None of us really have much in the way of lives or we wouldn't be as readily available as we are, so be sure you ask anything you need to along the way. Then we can have a rollicking discussion about whatever the issue is, and hopefully you'll be able to pick the solution out of the ensuing cacophony.

 

So I just looked at the bike. The left coil is in fact going to 1 & 4, and the right 2 & 3. SO thats a good thing. I tested all the plug wires with an extra plug. It was was light out so it was hard to tell how big the spark was but they all had spark. I cleaned the corrosion off the threaded spikes and re threaded them. So all that done but still not running on all 4. Can someone show a picture of the pilot circuit that everyone is saying is clogged. I want to check that out to make sure.

 

SO after pulling the float bowls off again there were 2 that were completely dry... It just so happens that they were my 2 cold cylinders. You can see in the picture by looking at the gaskets that 2 of them are dry (right). So is this in fact a clogged pilot?

 

Ummm, no.

Pilot jets are the jets that supply the fuel and air to idle with.

If you have two completely dry float bowls then you have a fuel supply (float) problem. You didn't "wet-set" the float levels for each carb using fuel and clear tubing or you would have discovered the problem before they went back on the bike.

Did you remove the float needle SEATS and make sure the "beanie screens" aren't clogged? Those two float valves aren't working correctly; you'll need to figure out why.

Then you'll need to set the float levels correctly using fuel and clear tubing, as described many many times on this site. You cannot take short cuts or things like this will continue to happen.

Get after those float valves.

 

Questions:

Did you break the rack apart?

Did you inspect and/or replace the needles and seats?

 

I did not break the rack apart, and I reused the screens they didn't come with the rebuild kit...but they did not seem clogged at all? Are they absolutely necessary?

 

I did repalce the float needles and seats

 

Are you running an in-line fuel filter?

You may have dislodged some rust in the tank and it got introduced to your fuel system.

How long did it sit before you did the carb cleaning?

It could be years of gunk plugging the fuel rail between #2 &#3.

 

No fuel there-at least now you have the cause of your symptoms.

To answer your question about the screens: If your bike was brand new and no debris, dirt, or rust could ever get into your fuel system then you wouldn't need the beanie screens. A functional in-line filter will catch 99% of anything you don't want in, but those screens are there to catch anything that slips by-so I would keep them.

If you end up needing to break your rack (if the blockage is in the rail) then be sure and level the carbs on a perfectly flat surface when you re-unite them. A plane of glass works well.

 

Yes I am running a brand new inline filter. and I made sure that there was no debris in between the fuel rails with high pressure air. I will pullout the seats and look at the screens tomorrow and see how they are doing? Can anyone pinpoint why there is no fuel in theses two carbs?

 

We already have.

If everything is physically and mechanically fine, then the floats are simply mis-adjusted.

I'll come back to this again: When you WET-SET the floats, USING FUEL, it involves filling the rack with fuel and using a piece of clear tubing to "read" the fuel level in each individual carb bowl. The rack has to be level in all planes, so this more easily accomplished off the bike.

IF YOU DIDN'T DO THIS then start there. Did you wet-set the floats when you rebuilt the carbs? Dry set them? Or just slam them back together without checking the levels?

 

Unfortunately I didnt know about wet setting or dry setting this is my first rebuild. So I just slammed them back in. I did the clear tube method before but must have done it wrong. Does anyone have a write up on this method?

 

Good discussion here:

http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=3 ... evels.html

Lots of useful information here, but I believe he says to orient the carbs like they would be on the bike. SM calls for the carbs to be level in both planes to set them-front to back and side to side.

http://www.drpiston.com/hitachicarbs.html

 

So I did the clear tube method and they are all spot on. The bike is running on all four again. But still when I put it in gear it dies...? What now? This thing is dangerously close to going off a cliff!

 

Whooa dude don't do it. I know how you feel - on a scale of 1-10 your frustration level is an 11! You're making progress you got two cylinders back up and running-there are bikes that have been purchased for a song because someone couldn't figure out what you've already fixed.

Go one of two ways-take a break and leave the bike alone for a while, or back to the fight. As has been suggested are you sure-ABSOLUTELY SURE there's no safety switch in effect? Did you ever try the rolling start and shifting up to second?

Let me just throw this out. When things aren't working I have found the best solution is to try one thing at a time-that you haven't already tried and see if that makes a difference. If it's not your clutch then something is killing your ignition and it must be electrical.

 

I feel their pain. Im not one to give up but damn this thing is giving me a run (or lack there of) for my money. I did try to bump start it into second and got nothing. I adjusted my clutch just in case it wasnt engaging, still nothing. It seems electrical but there is no sidestand switch on the bike I hokked it back up (one to the prong on the tci and one to ground. The ground killed it once connected. There is no elctrical on the clutch. There is nothing else I can think of. It dies like its safety cut off but there is nothing the prong is empty???????

 

On some of these bikes, and I believe yours is one, there are TWO relays in the safety circuit; a sidestand relay and the main safety relay. If not "circumvented correctly" the system will shut the bike down when you drop it into gear if it thinks the stand is down.

You've got one of two things happening, and without being there to see it I can't tell you which:

-the above scenario is occurring, because the safety circuit is still partially (intermittently?) operational; or

-your clutch is dragging to the point that it's killing the bike when you drop it in gear.

 

This problem didnt always occur this way, It started after taking it to a shop to re do the whole wiring harness, SIMPLIFIED which has turned out to be far from that. I picked it up from the shop 3 different times rode it fine through all gears for about 2 miles. When I approached a stop I would clutch in in any gear and it died. After that it wouldnt start in gear and again would run in neutral all day long but the second it goes in gear it would die. The shop also said they were gonna change the oil but when I got it back it only had about a quart. When it dies it seems electrical but at the same time the lack of oil sitting in it for about 3 weeks could cause the clutch plates to stick. What would you guys think? I mean this thing is dying like the ignition is just shutting off so I am completely and utterly stuck!

 

Do you have the center stand still? Put it up on the center stand and see if when you shift to first the wheel jumps with the clutch pulled in. If it really jumps then I'd look toward the clutch.

The other option is to get very familiar with the simplified wiring diagram on this site and start by pulling off the wiring and rebuilding a circuit at a time. It's the only way to know exactly what is and isn't hooked up. Just becuase it isn't in the normal spot doesn't mean it's not hidden somewhere. You've had atleast two people "fixing" it before you got to it.

 

Now that yet more information about the wiring has trickled out, I'll bet any money this shop (that obviously knows only enough to be dangerous) "eliminated" one or the other of the safety relays but the other one is intact, and still partially functioning. This bike "thinks" its sidestand is down. Meanwhile, a flaky NEUTRAL switch was allowing the bike to run "thinking" the stand is down. Now that you've changed the oil, and put in proper oil (you did use motorcycle oil, right?) the neutral switch is working more frequently causing your shutdown issue. I'd definitely investigate this "minimalized" wiring; if the safety circuits are still partially operational it would explain your symptom (if indeed it is electrical.)

Please don't take the bike back to this shop anymore.

 

No jump at all it just dies... But the I try to start it in gear with the clutch fully engaged it does pull forward a little. As for that shop ever getting business from me or anyone I know, it will never happen! I did use motorcycle oil (Castrol 4T 20w50). Ill start checking for safety switches... any particular area I should focus on?

 

Between the front and rear tire. There's no telling where it may be hidden with other people having worked on it.

 

I'm still sticking with #1

And, yes, please don't have that shop "fix" it again