Chain guide Q's + I'm driving 8,000mi to Costa Rica & back!

(Put that title in there to help this thread be found by people who it might be relevant to in the future, my bike shifts beautifully.)

So this started from another thread:

Hmmm. Brings me two more questions, (though thanks for the great responses already):

How many miles can you go without it, do you think?

and:

How much does an extra one cost/how does one get one? Does XJ4ever have that without getting an assembly of some sort?

Leaving on a long trip like I will be in two weeks, I'm wondering if I should bring one, since getting one in Central America would probably be an ordeal. How big is it? Anyone got a picture? Is there an article about this in Haynes somewhere? Or the Yamaha Service Manual?

What worries me about this is it seems like there's no way to predict its oncoming. Is there preventative maintenance one can do for this issue?

A separate, but somewhat related question: I was on a BMW forum trying to help my friend find a M/C rebuild kit for his '83 R100RS, and ran across a thread mentioning shaft drive/transmission failures. It's a recurring problem--one guy mentioned at a rally they asked a show of hands and about 20% of those present raised their hands. (It's a known issue with their bikes, and the thread was complaining about that, since BMW is supposed to have absurd reliability and over-engineering as their main selling point) (there was a good deal of bashing of every other motorcycle brand out there, and a definite prejudice against UJM there, though one owner pointed out that most mechanics are probably going to own a UJM...).

Right, so anyways, it was mentioned that the preventative maintenance to avoid that, that most people weren't willing to do (this is BMW, a lot of these owners just bring their bike to the shop for everything), was to lube your splines. Is that necessary on our bikes? Or do we just have better shafts?

 

Re: Plastic Primary Chain Guide questions (can't shift past 1st)

 

Re: Plastic Primary Chain Guide questions (can't shift past 1st)

You are correct in that there is no way to predict the failure.

It can happen anywhere between about 12,000 miles and 65,000 miles; there's no way of telling or predicting. It's aged, dried out plastic that is now being called upon to be tough and flexible again under all sorts of high temperature conditions. It's going to fail but there's no telling when, and you can't SEE it except by doing the disassembly required to replace it.

If you're going to ride the bike to South America, I WOULD replace the primary chain guide pre-emptively, by all means. Doing it "on the road" in a third-world country would likely end in tears.

Replacing the chain guide involves splitting the engine cases. The engine has to be removed from the frame and basically torn nearly completely apart; reassembly requires cleanliness, precision, care, and a special type of sealer. You need a FACTORY service manual, and a lower-end seal and gasket set.

One more thing: I don't mean to "pee in your cornflakes" here, but I would NOT try to ride a resurrected 30-year old bike halfway across the world until I had put at least half the equivalent mileage on it first, locally, to shake out any potential failures. It's obvious you haven't completely gone through your bike to the extent necessary to give it half a chance of making it as far as you're planning. Quite honestly I don't think you're going to get very far before you have a trip-halting failure. Sorry, just being completely honest here. That bike is NOT ready. I commute on my XJ550R, 120+ miles a day and trust that I could jump on it right now and ride it across the country. But no way would I attempt to take it on the trip you're planning.

You need to go slam a 700-mile weekend or two on your bike and see what breaks.

Better than finding out in the middle of Mexico somewhere.

 

Re: Plastic Primary Chain Guide questions (can't shift past 1st)

Does yourbike have a lot of miles on it ?
Replacing the chain guide out on a road trip would be impossible. This would definitely need to be done in a shop or in your garage.
You mentioned your going on a trip down into Central America. That sounds like fun. I hope you have gone through and did all of the maintenance and replaced all of your brakes, fork seals , alternator brushes, wheel bearings and seals. Also every electrical connection should be inspected.
Good luck on your trip, take lots of pictures and maybe post a few here when you get back.

MN

 

Re: Plastic Primary Chain Guide questions (can't shift past

tcoop, you mention mistakes you made; could you post them here so that if someone runs across this they will be able to avoid them?

I don't ask because I want to run it without a chain guide, I just want to know how far I can take it if it happens on the road. I'll likely be driving 200-300 miles on driving days on a regular basis. If it's good for 10 miles, for instance, that is a lot different than it being good for 100, which is different than it being good for 500 miles.

My chain guide has no problems, I wouldn't go on a trip if I had any suspicions about one going bad either... As I said, this thread is purely theoretical for me, just trying to learn everything I can.

Curious, why didn't they make this part out of metal? The idea of a plastic chain guide inside the engine just sounds kind of absurd.

----

I was planning on making a separate post about trip questions soon, but so be it.

I have actually done a thousand mile weekend on it recently, with no failures or performance questions of any kind. That was two weeks ago. I have put over 2000 miles on the bike in the little over a month since I got it (trying to 'break things', as you said). On smooth highway riding it gets 53 mpg. It starts up in less than a second. Only thing giving me any trouble is a petcock issue, and I'll be overhauling that soon (your guide was beautifully written and photographed, fitz). What's more, everything I look at on this bike tells me it was well maintained and someone's has been everywhere before me. On the outside it isn't pretty, but inside, it's good--and that's the way I want it.

When I took apart the clutch, it was beautiful. Every one of the plain plates looked perfect, and even the friction plates looked like they still had plenty of life in them (NOT linoleum). It has had good use for the last 10 years, and more importantly (has not been sitting), good maintenance. You mention taking cheaper tires off your bikes when you get them to put new ones on--I'm about to install my spitfires (I've never encountered rain grooves where I live... Still not even sure what they are, I think I remember them from a road trip in a car years ago--agonizing vibration?), but this bike has D404's on it as it. The previous owners just didn't skimp on things when they did it, and it was maintained.

I appreciate the advice. I have confidence in the bike, though. And I'm willing to take a risk, and willing to learn the hard way if necessary. I don't have anywhere I'm trying to get in time, don't have to be back in time, just living life. It's not like I have a garage as is, or any more tools than I'll be bringing with me on the road. I go to friends' houses here to work on my bike. Not that much different than having to do it on the road for me, frankly.

And this back hasn't been restored, trying to pull it back from the ashes. It's just still alive. It never died. I don't have some barn find that needs to have everything replaced, though I know your default response is to treat these bikes that way. And I understand, but... That's not the bike I have.

If it means improvising somewhere on the way, finding a friend of a friend who has a pickup bring me to a friend who has some tools and doing my best, then I'll try. If all hell totally breaks loose, I can just sell it and bite the loss and continue on backpacking. More likely I'd leave it sitting somewhere with a friend along the road covered in someone's backyard and come back to it when I could, maybe in a year, after doing everything I could to weather protect it. (It'd be great to store it in a garage, but I doubt I'd be so lucky).

I'm still going through all the maintenance, but finishing it up. Would love to take recommendations on what all to do, but realize that I just don't have the time or money to make sure the entire thing is guaranteed to be failproof. If I have reason to believe something is reliable, sometimes that'll have to be enough. A preemptive chain-guide switch would be great, but if everything is fine, sometimes it's better to just not disturb stuff. I know that will fall on a lot of deaf ears here, but you're just going to have to let me be and help me best you can knowing that.

Changing any tire more than 6 years old may be foolproof practice, for example, but the fact of the matter is that 20 year old cracking tires will still take you a couple hundred or more miles, generally. Will I do that? Not more than a couple miles on back roads at low speed, I guess. But if I have garage kept tires with lots of tread and no warning signs, 7 years old, I can't afford to just replace them at my leisure. I haven't ever heard of catastrophic tire failure on good tires with no warning signs or something puncturing them, have you? Live and let live. I don't mind you being cautious. I just happen to not see my own practice as much more risky.

Feel free to take bets on my chances of making it under the table. Again, I'll hear all the advice you have to give, but I don't take discouragement. I know plenty of mechanically inclined people, close family and friends, who are confident in me and the bike and believe it will work out.

Fork seals have been redone, was going to do alternator brushes but my charging/starting system seems beyond tip-top shape right now, so I decided it was unnecessary, brakes are good but I will be putting new ones in the week before I leave anyways, will be replacing the brake line *even though* catastrophic brake line failure is ridiculously rare and the cable looks to be in great shape, am still undecided on wheel bearings since mine seem to be in good shape to me, have been going through electrical but am still new to that; only problems seem to be my blinkers themselves, and they're non-essential and working as is, though I'm still looking into them.

I plan on keeping a video journal, I'll definitely post a link here to the site when I begin the trip.

I know my modus operandi isn't in line with the standard on this site (replace everything in sight and don't ride until you have done so!), but I hope I can be respected anyways. If something goes wrong, and it might, I'd also hope I get people genuinely being helpful, and not just saying "I told you so."

 

Re: Plastic Primary Chain Guide questions (can't shift past 1st)

Bike has 27,400 miles on it. I bought it at 25,288, if I remember correctly.

Further, as far as impossible, you underestimate what it possible. I have a family friend who had a 70's trailways bus (old greyhound competitor) that was converted to an RV completely die on him when he was in Nevada. Fire was coming out of the exhaust. Total engine failure.

Impossible to fix on the road? I don't remember the exact numbers now, just the ratios, but it was going to be a lot of money to repair the engine (One of those old Detroit diesels), so he found a rebuilt one in Alabama for just a bit more. He flew down to NE Texas, where he lives, got a tow truck from a friend, went over and picked it up, drove back to Texas, picked up a mechanic friend and said he'd pay him $250 a day to work on the bus and help him do it, drove out with the engine and mechanic to the bus, and did the whole thing in the parking lot of a truckstop down the road over the course of 5 or 6 days. Drives that bus to this day.

 

-You're not going to succeed in replacing the chain guide on the road if it fails, and at your mileage it very well could. We've all told you what it entails, if you choose not to listen that's up to you. Ignorance is NOT bliss when it breaks.

-At the mileage that's on that bike, you'd better attend to the alternator NOW, the brushes are likely near done; at least close enough they won't last for the miles you're contemplating.

-Have you figured out what to do about the 5000 mile valve clearance checks and the 3000 mile oil change intervals yet?

And if you don't start off on brand new tires, you're not being optimistic, you're just being downright stupid.

Good luck-- you're gonna need it.

 

I am starting on brand new tires--as I said, I'm getting spitfires. Have tools for valve job on me. Will change oil on the road...

I'll think about the alternator brushes again. My impression, (which could be wrong, and correct me if so), is that wear on brushes is something that shows wear as it happens, no? Either spark or charging? I read at least one guy who did his here, and he said his looked fine and didn't seem to need it. Everyone who seems to have problems and go that route mentions that they've been seeing symptoms for a long time.

 

The brushes are mounted in the alternator cover and have wear limit lines in them. Once they wear out, they get replaced. If done at the correct intervals, there should be NO "symptoms." The book says 18K; that's a bit conservative. But by 25K they're gonna be close or into the lines. Plus 27K and 30 years' worth of crud is a lot to build up in there.

You're taking a bike with no provision for electric start, and that CANNOT GENERATE POWER without the battery having at least some charge, into a hot climate. Making sure the alternator is in tip-top shape would be at the top of my list.

Remember, the XJs charging system uses a field coil for the alternator. Unless you have enough voltage to energize the field, the generator doesn't. Generate, that is. My point being, you can't even push start it if it's stone dead.

Have a look at your alternator. A new AGM battery of the correct rating might not be a bad thought either; the original lead-acid style will require constant attention in the way of water levels.

I would also recommend you carry a motorcycle tire TUBE. An "irrepairable" tear or cut in a tubeless tire might be salvageable enough to go another couple hundred miles if you have a tube to shove in it.

 

There sometimes are warnings before a brush failure. Sometimes not. Out of spec is only 1mm. And if it does stop charging, you'll probably fry the battery before you realize anything is up.

A new battery is $40-$50. Brushes, IIRC, are between $10 and $20, and not that hard to replace. If I were contemplating your trip, I'd change them just for peace of mind.

 

K, I'll do brushes. As for the battery... I was getting partial to distilled water batteries. They lost the longest when maintained. But looking, it does appear that distilled water can be hard to come by. I might just suck it up and buy a sealed battery as well.

Should I buy a gasket for the generator, I guess? Does that usually come apart like other gaskets? Never pulled a generator apart before, only looked at pictures and diagrams.

Oil is easy to find throughout, from what I read. Anyone know if our otherwise ubiquitous oil filter might be available down there, or if I should carry one of those as well?

 

30 year old bike and 8000 miles should make for some interesting reading. Did you at least upsize to a 750 tank so you dont have to fuel up as often?

Just wondering whats the longest trip you have ever taken on a bike?

 

I'm gonna throw this out there and probably get flamed from here to Sunday, but I'd feel like a heel if I didn't say it.

If it were me I'd sell the XJ and buy something simpler and more bulletproof for a trip like this. Probably a thumper. One with a long history of reliability and parts that can be found anywhere. Something with minimal electrics and possibly a kickstart. A long range tank. Double up on the fuel filters.

 

I think he really wants to put his bike to the test. He may have some issues but I say we see how well his bike performs and hopefully he will report back and let us know how tough his XJ really is.

 

Yeah, I know, and I've done the same thing as him many years ago. Hell, I drove a Honda Cub through South America, so I know the drill. But even if it's the role of the young man to ignore old man advice, it's still the old guy's job to give the advice. :lol:

 

For Sure , personally my backside wouldn't make it 500 miles on a 650. I like buzzing around town and a few short 150 plus mile rides in the summer.
If I were going to make that ride it would be on a bigger bike with a fairing and saddle bags and a custom seat, but that's just me. Maybe I'm just getting old too. At 54 an 8 K ride on any XJ would not be what I would be doing.

 

As far as the problems that I had with changing the primary chain guide; I broke off some bolts and misplaced other because I didn't keep it organized. The second time I kept everything organized and got all the parts I needed ahead of time. I got a cardboard box and punched a hole for every bolt and number the hole to correspond with the bolt (the case has numbers next to every bolt). The guide itself is pretty small about 6" long, 1" or so wide and 1/2" thick.

The mileage is not really the problem with the Primary chain guide, it’s the age. It’s even more likely to break if the bike has sat for several years then put back into service (both my bikes sat for 10 years or so)

If your real ambitious, had a good place to work and the proper tools anything can be fixed. Caring the tools you would need for every possible problem would not be feasible. If I was in my 20’s, had plenty of money and time I would love to do a trip like this.

 

Re: Chain guide Q's + I'm driving 8,000mi to Costa Rica & ba

I don't think anyone is going to be able to give you a good answer to the guide problem, just too many varibles. I believe the guide as well as the camchain guides are a hard rubber like material and if either one fails your trip will be over. That's just the reality of the situation. The only way to be sure would be to replace them and that is not what's going to happen.
That being said I am going to post some suggestions some have already been said so forgive me if I relist them and I will try to break it down in sections.
ENGINE: You are doing your valve clearance before you leave and with the miles on the bike already they should have " taken a set" so they MAY not change that much in 8000 miles. Provided you don't have one that is so tight it has started to burn. New oil and filter at the begining of the trip I assume.
FUEL/AIR: The bike sounds like it is running good now right? So your petcock overhaul is good. I would also make sure I had an inline fuel filter and a new airfilter
ELECTRICAL: I would disconnect all connectors and clean (or make sure they are clean) and I would use dielectric grease on all of them. If you battery is good and you are running a normal lead/acid battery make sure it is at upper level and check it every few days used distilled water if you can get it but a good bottled water is better than a dry cell. I would also at least inspect the generator and starter brushes and the seal behind the rotor on gen and starter motor seal while I was inspecting. If everything is good at least now you know and how to check them.
CHASSIS: You are putting on new tires right? so while you have them off I would inspect or repace the wheel bearing and seals. I would also inspect, lube and adjust the swingarm pivot bearing and while there ( this may be the answer to your BMW question) inspect and lube the drive shaft splines on both ends. When the front and rear wheels go back on make sure you lube splines on rear and all brake pivot points front and rear. Lube all lever pivots (clutch, front brake and rear pedal). Lube all your cables and I would replace clutch and throttle the 2 you aren't going to able to ride without and clean and lube the old ones and take them with you (they don't take up much room). Also while front wheel is off inspect and lube steering head bearing.
SPARES: The 2 cables as mentioned, extra set of sparkplugs, extra oil filter, extra fuel filter I would also take a front and rear tube (if you use them make sure you save your valve stems) an external tire plug repair kit and a good air pump.
MODS: A couple of minor and not very expense. If you can afford and find a set of fork gaiters (refer to Duck's 550 pictures) they will help prevent fork tube damage from rocks bugs etc. if not you may be able to build and install some guards made from an old one from a MX bike clamped to outer fork tube ( make sure they clear thru the full stroke), at the very least clean your inner fork tubes every night it only takes a min and dried bugguts can cause a seal leak. You might also consider a piece of foam filter material to go in or over the airbox intake (don't oil) in case you have alot of dirt roads.
Sorry the list is so long and I may have forgotten some things but most of what I listed is not alot of money just alot of work.
I do admire your sense of adventure, I would not have done this trip even when I was your age but that's just me.

 

For what it's worth, the XJ550 has the HYVO chain (which has the plastic guide) for the primary drive, whereas the 650 and 750 have it just to turn the alternator, so it should have an easier life. Over here we expected the 550 guide to last until 60-70,000 miles, BUT that was twenty years ago on 10 year old engines. What mileage you might achieve on 30-year old parts is guessing. I would consider your engine very low mileage personally and not expect to have to worry about that part. Unfortunately I can't give a guarantee.

I would have expected the lead-acid battery to give good service, but would keep an eye on it. Having said that, I'm now a big fan of AGM batteries, but would only spend the money on a bike that has trouble starting or has to sit for long periods.

I'm surprised to hear the advice being given on the alternator brushes. I would only expect to get that short a life out of brushes if I had bought cheap after market ones with the wrong composition carbon compound. 8000 miles is a long ride though and it is quite easy to take the end cover off and look at the brushes. If you do the job at home, you can just fit new brushes and solder the connections. If I was buying a cheap after market complete set with the plate (I'm thinking I should check this as the starter motor plates are more common purchases), I'd be tempted to keep the Yamaha ones as long as possible and only change to the aftermarket one if it failed. When they go, you just get no charging, so the battery should go flat, not get fried. In all my years with XJs, I may have switched some brushes for spares lying around, but don't think I have ever bought new alternator brushes.

Other than that, a good general service with all the points OldTexasGuy said should be part of the preparation.

 

An in-line fuel shutoff can come in handy if you need to pull the tank for repairs on the road..