Circuit board level help required

I have found that my TCI is damaged to some degree.

Not only do I not have the skill to identify the damage and repair it, but my hands simply are not steady enough to do the work.

Is there someone out there who would be willing to help me, who has the ability and skill required to identify and exact repairs? I can't offer a whole lot of cash but I do have limitless good will ...

 

Check with Len; last I knew he had a spare TCI or two for the X. I know this because I field tested it/them on mine.

Failing that, is it the transistors you're worried about? That should be a fairly simple swap, provided one can source the transistors in question. If nothing else, maybe you could have Len fling it out here so I could take a crack at it. I even have the bike to test it on afterwards...

 

schmuckaholic,

to be perfectly honest, I am not sure what a transistor thing is ... do you mean those colored long things with the bands on them? If so, then those don't worry me so much as some other things. Looking at the front picture, there are the two black things at the bottom with what I assume are heat sinks.
The bottom one has written on it: D11130 // 4 K4
I cannot read the 2nd as it is too far damaged to read. Both show signs of physical heat damage. The back nut for the one on the right is crisped, but appears generally ok. The back nut for the one on the left ... part of the board material itself melted and ran over it. It would take some precise work to cut it free of that stuff. In addition, a drop of that stuff ran across one of the traces (I think they are called?) and I can't tell if the actual line on the board was damaged.

All of the parts visible on the front with the exception of the two large things, look like someone tried to cover them with some sort of brownish gunk, possibly some sort of sealer? but at the same time, everything visible definitely is covered with something that is kind of grey. On the back, there are the two transistors(?) which are side by side. It looks like the solder, at least at the north end, actually connects to the one next to it, but I can't tell for certain with the grayish stuff covering them. Are the big tall things capacitors? Does it make a difference if they are covered w/the brownish goo you see elsewhere.

I'll check with Chacal, but I tend to doubt that I'll be able to afford one from him The money just isn't there. Every bit of cash I should get over the next month and a half is already promised/owed.

 

Long things with colored bands on them are resistors. The colored bands indicate just how much resistance they have.

Those are the transistors.

I had heard it was contact cement to act as something to absorb vibration; this was the case with my 750 TCI box that I opened up. After I got done replacing the capacitors, I drizzled some fresh over the new ones.

The side of the board where the components pass through and are soldered is covered with a sealant; this must be removed (with acetone and an old toothbrush) before any components can be desoldered.

 

Do you think then it is just the transistors causing the problem? I don't know what they do, however ... my problem was having two cylinders firing and two others not. *If* the two transistors are responsible for a different pair of cylinders, then the degree of damage to the one could explain the problem. *IF* that is all that needs repair, I *might* have someone local who can help. Of course, having one to test it on other than mine would make a big difference too ...

 

the D11130 are transistors, actually Darlington transistors by hitachi but they don't make them anymore and i couldn't find a replacement, they make a replacement i just couldn't find it !
moderator Robert used to fix these things but i haven't seen him in a while.
once you find a replacement part# actually fixing it won't be too hard for someone with a soldering station, shouldn't be very expensive either

 

If it's a common darlington pair, either a TIP102 or TIP107 should drop in depending on whether it's an npn or pnp.

I'd probably try a TIP102 and see if it works (more likely an npn rather than a pnp). Then again I haven't been working in the electronics field in many years, so I may be mis-remembering things or missing something.

 

Thanks guys, you have been a big help.

Now I am having to start to learn electronics ... Not a bad thing I guess. Based upon the fact that a) these transistors have a heat sink and b) something fried it with enough heat to melt at least surface portions of the board itself, not to mention the transistor as well, it is my conclusion that the transistor is what actually sends the signal to fire to the coils. Small signal processed by the switch and sent on its way amplified? Ok, then how do I determine if it is PNP or NPN? I can't find any info on the D11130, so not a clue on its specs. Also, given the heat generated, would it not be wise to make the new box so that the heat sink made physical contact with the box and the box had a way to transmit that heat out? Say a heat sink built into the box?

Also, a little test to see if I am understanding properly, technically, and transistor which could make the physical connection would work, just as long as it was rated high enough for the load?

 

In a darlington pair, the first transistor generally acts as a switch to turn on the second transistor, which does the primary work of amplification. They share a collector and the emitter of the first one drives the base of the second one.

It would be highly likely that it would be an npn pair, pnp pairs are used far less frequently. Without a datasheet it'd be hard to tell.

My experience is that usually transistors don't fail alone that often, there's usually a cascade of failures. Transistors, when used within their specs, are remarkably robust components. I'd look around for which components malfunctioned which caused the transistor failure. Look for other burnt parts, especially capacitors. If parts of the board are truly burnt, you might be on a quest to rebuild the entire board.

I don't suppose you have a schematic of the tci, do you? If so this whole process will be MUCH easier. You can check the board by using a continuity tester to make sure everything that's supposed to connect to each other is connected (first check the ground plane and power rail, then each subsystem in the signal paths). While doing so, check random points to see if there are any shorts. Then replace any obviously burnt components and test it. If it doesn't work, put it on a power supply and trace through the circuit until you find a fault, fix it, and test it again.

Without a schematic it's the same process, but you have to hunt down info on each part that isn't identified to find out what you can replace it with.

Honestly, you might find it takes less time and effort to work more hours at whatever job you do so you can just buy a working one if there are working ones available. Between tools and time you'll probably spend more trying to fix it.

 

google this
2SD1113(K)

 

I'm willing to bet that the board you've got there has seen its fair share of miles on the road.... one of the issues I see is de-lamination of the board itself due to lots of heat over time (from the transistors).

This has potential to create "pockets" behind the transistors, causing more shorts, causing more overheating, etc.... You may be able to salvage that board for another use, but be aware that the problem may resurface if the board behind the transistors has bubbled or anything...

It would be nice to get 'hold of a schematic for one of these... I can picture a "ruggedized" version with a nice finned heatsink to drop the temps...

 

Good find!

That's a darlington pair in a discrete package, along with regulation circuitry. You can't drop in a single transistor, you need a complete packaged darlington pair.

Notice the 450 ohm resistor between the second transistor's base and emitter, that helps overcome the typically lower switch speeds of the darlingto pair, so you need to make sure whatever component you put in is designed the same way.

The rest of the package is pretty standard stuff, a zener to set voltage, a flyback diode to limit ringing (and somewhat for protection, though not as critical in a non-inductive load), and the other resistor for feedback to increase stability.

 

skoster,
what did you find? I found data sheets, but it seems like you came up with a complete package for sale? I'd really like to see it.

 

Are TCI's really that expensive? If so, why not a used one off EBAY? I'm sure there is more damage that is unseen and probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to fix it.

 

The only used one on eBay is $220.
Normally they are around $100.

Considering my income at the moment, both of those are too much. If I can fix it by replacing two transistors for about a buck a piece, that would be awesome. And yer, the probability of additional damage is high, but better to try and fail than not try at all. At this point, I just need to find a transistor which meets or exceeds OEM requirements. Problem is, finding those requirements.

The PO of this bike had done some significant alterations to the wiring harness, my guess is he managed to zap this with too much power and cooked it.
Michael

 

For all parts, I go to octopart.com or findchips.com to check all the common internet distributors. A search on octo gave this: http://www.xsmicro.com/rfq.php?pn=2SD1113K&mfr=HITACHI

I also found this: http://www.icpowerx.com/quote.php?lcoun ... P1=2SD1113

They probably do not have it, but no one else does for sure. Give them a call and see if they can get it in. Ask them about their counterfeit parts policy (should be free return or exchange). Counterfeit parts are even more common after the catastrophe in Japan.

If you cannot get the part, try searching digikey.com, newark.com, mouser.com, avnet.com, arrow.com, or alliedelec.com. All good parts distributors. If you find a part at one of these sites, but find it to be out of stock, use the MFG PN and search it at either octopart.com or findchips.com.

Here's the datasheet:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datashe ... Xwuvvw.pdf
It was (C) in 2000. The site http://semiconductor.hitachi.com/ that it mentions for NA seems to be gone.

Another option is to call a Hitachi rep in the US and ask them for the recommended replacement part. MFGs rarely discontinue something useful without a replacement. And it will probably have improved characteristics and ratings to boot!

I also found this site that lists some possible replacements, but I didn't follow through (I think I've done enough and I should probably get back to work!!!)

http://english.electronica-pt.com/db/cr ... 113%28K%29

The second document here: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/2SD1113 ... sheet.html says that Hitachi became Renesas. I do seem to recall certain divisions of Hitachi being sold to Renesas. This is dated 2003, thus after the original datasheet. You can try Resas' website to see if they can recommend a replacement part. Check the other documents at this link for help in finding a replacement or cross-reference.

Keep in mind that with a lot of these parts, they were considered common and many manufacturers made the same thing when there wasn't a patent, or made minor changes to be a "different" design.

Finally, you are probably SOL and will need a new TCI. Sorry, but just stating what I firmly believe to be true. I've been building switch mode power supplies and other power electronics and switching circuits for a few years now. skoster's experience is the same as mine. It is typically something else that fails that causes these transistors to fail. They never fail on their own when operated within a properly designed circuit and with the proper load. The drivers that run them are probably dead, or some protection circuitry. And hunting down what is dead will drive you insane. You can replace drivers and transistors and it work for 5 minutes on a bench, only to find out it blows on you after an hour of in-system use. There are so many things in the chain that can and do go wrong. Save yourself the headache and start saving to replace the whole thing.

By all means, try the cheap fix (but it won't be as cheap as you think, sure, a couple bucks (*maybe*) for transistors, but no one will ship them to you for cheaper than $5-$10).

All the other melting, spotting, pockets, etc, suggest problems all over the board. My honest opinion is this is a TAR unit. Toss and Replace.

That's all I can do for now. Need to get back to my paid job!!!

 

Thanks a bunch.

I found the info on the 2sd1113(k) unit as polock pointed me to eventually, my big question is about the specs of the original D11130 ... I don't know the history of naming conventions so I don't know the relationship between the D11130 and the 2SD1113(k) ...

Yeah, I know, it is probably a TAR, but I cannot afford the $230 plus shipping being asked on ebay for the only one I find. ...

 

Oh, and the "goopy stuff" is called "conformal coating." We use it in the PCB industry to provide electrical insulation, better part mounting protection from vibration and thermal expansion fatigue, and a few other benefits. It makes rework a PAIN!!! There are sprays and fluids available intended to dissolve and remove some types of conformal coating. You're on your own to research that one. I got you started!

Good luck!

 

Check in the buy/sell portion of the forum. Let everybody know you are looking for a replacement.
Also wasn't there someone on the forum who repaird TCI units?

 

As mentioned before, that was Robert. Robert has been MIA from the site for some time, and when I emailed him a while back, mentioned that he has quite a bit on his plate.

I know he's swapped resistors and probably capacitors, but I don't know how deep into the rabbit hole he went when fixing these things.