Still rich after sync... what to do?

I have just completed a long cycle of maintenance on my bike to get it running after it sat in PO's shed for a decade. I just got the carbs synced at a shop, but it still feels like it's running rich. First, let me explain what I've already done:

* Cleaned / polished the carbs thoroughly
* Replaced float needles (one or more weren't sealing)
* Set fuel levels
* New plugs / oil
* Bench synced carbs
* Checked and adjusted valves to spec
* Reset pilot mixture screws to 2.5 turns out (were all over the place before)

Once I did all that, it was running extremely rich (getting like 12 mpg). I took it to the only shop within 50 miles who will even take my bike to get the carbs synced. I'm an apartment dweller in a ritzy area and have no place to run the bike with a fan while syncing.

I just got it back from the shop and put 50 miles on it... while it runs better, it still feels really rich. My lower end power when starting out feels really weak, but I have no history with the bike so I don't know if it's fairly normal or not. Starting from first gear sounds like the engine lugs and almost dies unless I really roll on the throttle.

Considering the shop I took it to was whiny about doing my bike at all, I don't really want to take it back to them and ask for a better job. I think the carbs are synced to each other, so my question is can I just start turning the pilot screws in a half turn at a time to lean the mixture out? Other than that, I could probably find a windy hilltop in the country somewhere...

 

If you are only getting 12mpg then adjusting the mixture screws won't do any good. Something else is wrong, float levels too high, enrichment circuit not closing, main and/or pilot jets too big, fuel leak(that is to obvious). Check the plug color, what do they look like?

 

We'll start with this:

What do your plugs look like?

After setting the screws by either colortune or plug chop you will need to do another running sync, then another CT/plug chop.

It may benefit you to put your location in your profile. If someone is close you may be able to go get some help, and a lot cheaper than a shop, that's a four-letter-word around here.

But check your plugs first, before riding it again, because if it's lean, or the levels got mis-adjusted while at the shop, the motor won't last long.

After we know the condition of the plugs we can give further advice.

 

they likely didn't have a yics tool which can play havoc with the sync. Pull your plugs and snap a pic of the ends for us (black=rich, white=lean, brown paper bag=good) Then you can run some plug chops to help you get the mix right.

Ps half turns are likely to be way too much

 

Okay thanks guys. I'll stay away from the pilot screws, but I don't think I was clear enough. I was getting 12 mpg BEFORE the sync the shop did. I don't know what I'm getting now, because I've only done one round trip commute on it since getting it back from the shop.

I did happen to snap a shot of my plugs before I took it to the shop. The black one is #1. These are brand new plugs that I put 50-100 miles on after doing my valves, setting my fuel levels to spec, bench synced, and reset my pilot screws to 2.5 turns, but PRIOR to the shop's carb sync.

I didn't think to clean my plugs after the sync from the shop, so I'll do that before I head to work and repost what they look like now.

P.S. Good point about the location - any San Francisco East Bayers out there?

 

Still a problem with one, the others look good. Is it soot or oil black? Hard to telll. Fuel level or stuck carb slide on that one. Possible enrichment plunger not sealing. Either way the carbs will have to come back off.

 

One looks oil fouled the other seem on the lean side IMHO.

 

Ugh, went out this morning to clean my plugs only to find the shop cross threaded one of my plugs!! I tried removing it but felt really tough to unscrew. Should I roll it down to the shop and demand they fix it? I don't really want them touching my bike again to be honest...

So I left that plug where it was and tried starting up. The lights were on until I pushed start, then everything went dead. Battery, right? What's the best thing to do here, charger or a new battery? Or can I bump start and ride to charge?

I swear every time I fix something, something else breaks. In the 6 months of ownership, I haven't ridden for more than a week without issues. This bike really tests the patience of a first time bike owner. Probably a good thing it won't start or I'd drive it off a cliff today!

 

relax. i've owned my 650 for almost 4 years now and have felt like you MANY times.

Dad always told me, 'that bike of yours takes more patience than I got'... Now that its running smooth I ride everywhere with it. heck today I'll have 3000 miles roll over just this riding season

and, ummm, yeah I would definitely have the shop fix the plug hole threads. the problem won't go away on its own and the longer you wait, the more time the shop has to 'blame' you for messing it up

 

BigFitz52 has made a lot of comments about resurrecting an old bike, especially how it's not like an old car, you have to do everything right, once, or do it little by little, but one way or another, you'll have to bring ALL of the maintenance up to spec. That can be very difficult if you don't have a place to work.

The FIRST thing I would do before continuing, is test the compression. If #1 is oil fouled, and you find really low compression, that's going to explain a lot.

If you get good compression, then I'd ask: EXACTLY how deep did you get into the carbs? There's a minimum level of effort that you need to complete to get these bikes running right, and if you didn't get there (and most first times don't) then you'll be chasing "gremlins" that's really just the result of old o-rings and dirty passages that you didn't flush out.

Also, you'd have to check the jets, and wet set the float levels.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the cross threaded plugs. But I'd definitely complain, I mean they took your money right? EDIT: Maybe this should come first before testing the compression...because you won't get the gauge in that cylinder. I always add anti-seize to the threads, it make removal and subsequent installation (even if I don't have any on hand) much smoother.

 

Okay, I'm calm now. Late to work, but I beat the boss in so it's all good

I definitely was not prepared for the maintenance involved to get my bike running right, as I found this forum after she broke down 5 days into owning it. Not having a garage or nearly any tools, it's been a process.

I haven't done a compression test, I will do that after I have the shop fix the job with the plugs. I am not sure if I know the difference between soot & oil fouled, but I think it's soot fouled. It was thick black soot, but dry. I'm not sure if this useful information or not, but after my bike sits for a day in the sun (i.e. in the parking lot after riding to work), I get white smoke/vapor for 5 min JUST out of the left exhaust.

I HAVE wet set the float levels to spec - 3mm (using the PDF I found here). And I went really deep into the carbs. I can say that confidently because the first 2 times I think I cut corners. I did it right the third time, completely dismantled everything, cleaned really well, passed the clunk test. They're pretty sparkly.

What about the jets need to be checked? My jets looked pitted on the tops, but the hole looked fine and I ran a nylon bristle through to be sure they were clear. I wanted to replace them when I replace my float needles, but ran out of money

 

That's the difference. If they are oil fouled they would be wet with oil. And wet with gas is flooding.

I would definitely talk to the shop owner and have him make it right with you.

I would say they either messed the sync, or the float levels still aren't quite right. We'll be able to tell better if we can see how the plugs look now, or hear it run (youtube video).

 

You don't NEED to replace them, especially if you didn't strip any out. But check that the air jets and fuel jets are in their correct locations. They all have the same thread, and the Haynes manual has the air jets swapped (if you've been on the forum a while, you might have run across this). It's just another "maybe"

Glad to hear you did go thoroughly through the carbs. Did you replace all of the o-rings (pilot, enrichment circuit, fuel tube, and throttle shaft seals)? Did you break the rack? Do you have ANY place that you can do a sync? It's really easy and you can build/buy the tools you need and get it done in short time.

 

I didn't replace any of the o-rings, just inspected for wear and they looked fine. I didn't break the rack apart because I wasn't confident I'd be able to put everything back correctly.

I don't THINK my jets are swapped, unless they were swapped when I bought the bike. I was very diligent about organizing everything as I dismantled and reassembled (using the very handy 2 muffin tin method), though now that I think about it I didn't verify the jets against the manual (I have the haynes). I'll talk to the shop owner and do a compression test then post my results. I will go back into my carbs if I need to, but prefer not to

 

I have an update, sorry for the delay.

1. I took my bike back to the shop and asked them to do a better job on the sync. I also mentioned the crossthreaded spark plug. They categorically denied any wrongdoing, blamed me for everything, and I'm mostly surprised we didn't come to blows. Long story short, they redid the sync, and I'll be giving that place a wide berth in the future. One odd thing was that as an example of me "not knowing what I was doing," they claimed that I illegally modified my muffler. I checked out photos of stock 82 650 seca, and I think mine is stock, but I'm not sure (I definitely haven't touched it).

2. After they did a better sync, I went from 14 mpg to 38. It runs waaaay better, but still "feels" a little rich. I put 200 miles on it, then took a photo of my plugs. #1 is dry black, the others are whitish. Photo attached. [EDIT: Didn't upload correctly the first time... should be working now]

3. I also uploaded a video I took of the motor running in the morning, and one after a 15 mile / 80mph freeway ride. After the freeway, everything feels really loose, and it makes odd noises. Just want to make sure they are good noises. Feedback please!

Here's the cold run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mzbBGpv ... e=youtu.be
Here's the run after the freeway ride on a hot day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es9FevgFO4c

 

#1 is running rich if it is black the others may be running lean. take pictures and post. They all should be tan to light brown.

 

Did the shop repair the cross-threading?

 

Oh yeah... they claimed not to have cross threaded the plugs, but when I got it back everything was in working order (I could see new grease in that plug hole). Considering how willing they were to accept blame for other things, my gut says they secretly fixed it. When I suggested they could've done a better job on the sync, the OWNER of the shop started yelling at me. I don't get it.

@Ground-Hugger - take pictures of what? If you saw the post earlier, I realized that the photos hadn't attached like I thought. I went back and added the plug photos to the last post. It sounds like I may need to find a place to do some plug chops, huh? I have found a couple guides online, but are there are any good guides on these forums? The guides I've found here seriously need to be compiled into a supplement to the shop manual (hint hint).

 

If compression is ok - check your fuel levels again - each carb (you say you had to replace needles, did you check again after that?) It is a very fine adjustment of the float tang either way that can make 5-10mm level difference! I have just found that out whilst refurbing my own carbs.

CARBS MUST BE AS PARALLEL AS YOU CAN MAKE THEM, WITHIN YOUR OWN CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN CHECKING FLOAT LEVELS.

I - like yourself, have not got access or the know-how to build a jig out of plumbing materials to hold the rack completely parallel. - I improvised, by using a large vice, a spirit level, and put the level on top of each carb (both ways) while reading level underneath with plastic tube with marks on it! My fuel supply, was my own removed gas tank, sitting on a chair seat above this set-up with pipe extending from petcock, turned to 'prime'! Howzatt!!!
It looks like you're too rich on plug #1, and the others are a bit on the lean side.
Try specing fuel level down a tad, on #1 carb, and 'upping' the other three ever-so-slightly (get them all the same float level as a result also!)
Also check, needle not sticking in diaphragm plunger(s)
Try again then.......

 

Your mufflers are modified. The series of holes drilled around the center hole are not stock. But don't worry about it being illegal. As far as the video they do sound different but I really can't offer any insight on that.

 

@pauldale999 - I think they were level, but I'll admit I didn't verify with a level! I was on a completely flat surface on a concrete patio, so if the concrete wasn't level, then neither were my carbs. I will try again. Question though: how do you check that the needle isn't sticking in the plunger (is this the clunk test?). I love your setup. My first attempt had my gas tank on a chair above my bench. After spraying gasoline all over the plants, my wife kindly requested I get an aux tank

FYI: I have clunk tested all 4 successfully and I set the fuel levels AFTER replacing the float needles & seats. Admittedly I wasn't as perfectionist as I should've been, but there were all within 2-4mm (some were 2.5, some were closer to 4). My main issue with that was not being able to maneuver the fuel line to the same spot on all 4 carb bodies. I suppose verifying level will make this a non-issue.

@biggs500 Thanks for verifying. Does anyone know how this might affect things, if at all? Does it just change the sound?

 

Here is what the factory muffler end looks like:



I honestly don't think the holes in yours will do much to the mixture. I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

Also I used this on my rear fender and the front brake line distribution joint cover. I see your fender looks like mine did. The entire fender is very easy to remove if you want to paint it. Works very good for $4.99. Also I used the satin finish, not gloss.



Not perfect but it's black.

 

Awesome, thanks for the tip! I'm absolutely going to pick some up. I was a little overwhelmed with this bike because it looked crappy AND ran crappy. Decided to get it running well first, and it's almost there, so I'm going to be going through and repainting all the chewed up stuff.

 

Lets back up here a minute. You basically did a whitewash carb clean, and you expect it to run right. How? 8O Your mixtures are all over the place from rich to lean. 8O

I hate to tell you this, but the money that you just paid the shop to sync those carbs was a total waste. Save up the money up to get all the necessary o-rings, and seals. Then get yourself well informed about what you need to do to get those carbs into the best shape possible. If you can remove the float bowls, and jets. YOU CAN dismantle the rack to replace the shaft seals.

You gain the confidence by doing it. Take pictures. Write notes. Mark things. Anything that you can do to help you remember where parts go will help the process. But above all. Take It Slow. If necessary. Get an extra rack of carbs to work on while keeping the bike operational.

You learned how to walk by taking the first step. To drive a car by getting behind the wheel. Is it scarry? For the first time, or two, or three maybe. Eventually you will come to the point of realizing. Hey! I have done this before! After a couple decades of tearing things apart. I finally started figuring out how to put them back together again.

Got to XJ4ever and get the pdf's. Do a search here on the site about Carbs, Bench sync, Vacumm Sync, Clunk Test. The information is available.

Above all that. Stop waisting your money taking the bike to a shop. You got the bike because it was cheap. Keep it that way by doing the work yourself.

Ghost

 

I am not opposed to dismantling the rack, I just read (on these forums somewhere, don't remember where) that it's probably not necessary to dismantle, and I didn't want to go through unnecessary extra work instead of riding. I DID do a bench sync and clunk test (according to the PDFs here).

The reason I took it to the shop for the sync is that I don't have the facilities to run my bike and keep it cool while doing a sync. That's the ONLY thing I took the bike to the shop for, and will never be doing it again .... still trying to find someone who can loan me a corner of a garage somewhere.

I will start saving for the seals & o-rings. Thanks for the input!

 

Okay, I've done my research, and realized that I have a 5 day weekend coming up. Gonna bit the bullet, get the parts I need, and spend the long weekend going all through my carbs. I won't have this much time off for several months, so I want to make sure I'm ordering all the right parts from chacal (really don't want to realize I forgot one stupid little washer or something). If your experienced eyes wouldn't mind taking a look at my shopping list...?

Here's what I've already done:
> Replaced float needles & seats
> New carb bowl gaskets
> Inspected & polished pistons, diaphragms & bores
> Cleaned everything real good, minus what I couldn't get at because I didn't break the rack apart

Here's what I am thinking of ordering (comments?)
> 4 idle mixture screw O-rings
> 4 idle mixture screw spring seat washers
> 8 throttle shaft V-seals
> New air filter (not sure if this is necessary... mine looks okay, but not sure if it's ever been replaced..?)
> Colortune kit!

My plan is to go through my carbs again (been about 1500 miles since I cleaned it last and I've got a hell of a lot more experience now), clean, bench sync, recheck float levels, replace the parts above, then colortune. Anything I might've missed? Thanks!