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Using HD30W Oil - What do you think

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by RonWagner, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. RonWagner

    RonWagner Member

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    I have a ton of HD 30W oil ...four 55 gallon drums and would like to use it in my bikes; SR500, XJ650, XJ700X, XS850 and a Kawasaki 454 LTD. The oil is Citgo Citgard 500. It has a diesel rating of CF-2, CF and a gasoline rating SH, SJ. It meets the older ratings of CE, CDII, CD / SF, SG. Unlike modern oil (SM) it will have a good amount of ZDDP and detergent. As stated earlier it is a SAE 30 weight oil.

    The owners manual asks for SE 20W40 in summer weather. That is a 20 weight oil with viscosity index modifiers to create a 40 weight at 100 deg C. It is said that motorcycles put a high shear stress on oil and it looses viscosity rather quickly and then tapers off. This would be the viscosity modifiers breaking down. That being said you end up with a 20W30 or 20W35.

    The advantage of a single weight it is very stable to temperature breakdown and shear. I think the 30 weight should offer great protection and be safe for the clutch with the exception of cold starting where it will flow more slowly. To counter this I could blend in a little 20W40 to help the cold flow but maybe that isn't necessary.

    Any thoughts on using this oil?
     
  2. Orange-n-Black

    Orange-n-Black Well-Known Member

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    These bikes don't like oil with friction modifiers, it will kill the clutch disc's(wet clutch) and cause the starter clutch to act up. I use Mobil Motorcycle Oil 20W50.
     
  3. MiCarl

    MiCarl Active Member

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    It's going to have more drag cold, which could cause two issues:

    1) Hard to start.

    2) Clutch won't fully disengage.
     
  4. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    3) Poor oiling to head/valvetrain when cold.

    4) Starter clutch may misbehave in cool temps, or when motor cold.

    I wouldn't.
     
  5. RonWagner

    RonWagner Member

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    Thanks for the responses.
    Im not concerned about clutch slipping due to friction modifiers, zddp really isn't a modifier but a last defense to prevent metal in metal contact when the oil film is lost. If it had mollyB that would be a different story.

    As for items 1 thru 4; I agree in theory but I'm not so sure in practice.
    1. Cold start - I live in Nashville,it's warm and can often start them with out the choke. Also there isn't a big difference in the pour point between 20 weight and 30 weight, at least in the summer.
    2. That one I hadn't thought of and may be an issue when cold.
    3. Of all the issues this is the one that had me conceerned and lead me to post this subject. But with the high zddp level for metal to metal protection and that it is not that much heavier than 20W, so it may be a non-issue. The problem is, you can't measure the results like you can with the clutch issue.
    4. That one I hadn't thought of either.

    I'm hoping someone can chime in who has been through this; good or bad.

    I would just keep buying Yamalube but I would like to make use of my ton of oil. It does make great break-in oil for non-roller cammed engines but how many engines do you rebuild in a lifetime.
     
  6. darkfibre

    darkfibre Member

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    Just try it and see how it goes.

    Fresh clean oil one grade out is better than old dirty oil any day.

    Monitor how the clutch feels over time.
     
  7. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Gadfrey! You can stop buying Yamalube no matter what you decide. Yamaha doesn't make oil; they make "Yamaha" labels to put on oil they get elsewhere. Come to think of it, they probably don't even make the labels; just buy the oil pre-OE-packaged for them.

    While 20W40 can be a tad difficult to locate, 20W50 motorcycle oil (JASO spec) is widely available. I recommend using real motorcycle oil.
     
  8. RonWagner

    RonWagner Member

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    I changed oil on a few bikes the other day:
    XS850 Got straight 30W
    XJ650 Got 2 parts 30W 1 paer 15W40 Rotella
    Xj700 Got 1 part 30W 1 part 15W40 Rotella.

    After 100 miles bike performed performed flawlessly; starter clutch as well as main clutch, rpm's cold were normal. Transmission felt slightly smoother.

    I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't have a umlimited supply of 30W oil.
    This may give others some options.

    Cheerrs,
    Ron
     
  9. adrian1

    adrian1 Active Member

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    Wouldn't be running in my bike...seems a tad thin. Damage (if any) may not appear until years afterwards. Would you be using it if you didn't have an oversupply of it?
     
  10. yamamann

    yamamann Member

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    Don't wess with lubricants - use what is recommended by Yamaha ( not Yamaha brand but type ) the cost of an engine repair will be much higher than anything you save using the wrong oil - the way I see it anyway
     
  11. happydog500

    happydog500 Member

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    I saw where a guy used the "wrong" oil (he got all kinds of criticism like his clutch will go out) and his bike got 60,000 miles on it and it's still running strong.

    You are supposed to use a certain kind of oil but if you use one close to it, the most important thing about oil is that you have it.

    I used "motorcycle" oil so far. Many people think you need to use this. I find it interesting that Yamaha doesn't even think that.

    The Official YAMAHA Shop Manual (Pg. 2-10) says, "SAE 20W/40W Type Motor Oil."

    Even tho YAMAHA doesn't say you need to use motorcycle oil, people keep saying you need to.

    This is just MHO.
    Chris.
     
  12. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    that book was written in the early 80's when oil was oil and gas was gas. things have changed a little since then
     
  13. happydog500

    happydog500 Member

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    Yes, you are right, they've gotten better since the early 80's.
    Chris.
     
  14. day7a1

    day7a1 Member

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    Better, but the meanings of the words have changed. What was "Motor Oil" then is not the same as "Motor Oil" now. Motor Oil and Motorcycle Oil used to have the same formulations. Due to advances in chemistry that is no longer the case. Today's "Motor Oil" and wet clutches do not play well together. Today's "Motor Oil" is good enough that my car doesn't recommend oil changes for 10,000 miles though. If I put that oil in my XJ it wouldn't make it to the grocery store, even though they both take 20W-50.
     
  15. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    And "those people" are correct. What the book really says is "SAE 20W40 SE motor oil." As in, API spec SE. Most motorcycle-specific oil meets SG these days.

    CAR OIL, on the other hand is now up to SL and SP specs; and those service specs require friction modifiers that can cause issues with not only our wet clutches, but also the starter 'sprag' clutch due to their super-slipperiness.

    Back when these bikes were built, cars took SE or SG spec oil just like bikes. The world of automotive lubricant technology has come a long way; our bikes are "stuck" with the technology of the era in which they were made.
     
  16. happydog500

    happydog500 Member

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    I think you could go 60,000 miles on it, just like the other guy did.

    Chris.
     
  17. day7a1

    day7a1 Member

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    If you think I'm wrong, YOU go ahead, put 0W-40 full synthetic in there...see what happens in a week. Let us know. I'll help you if you have any questions about changing the clutch.

    My bike came with PO car oil in it. Clutch lasted about a month before it was completely shot. When I took it out everything measured to spec and the disks looked brand new.

    Maybe you do know "some guy" who went 60,000 miles on "regular motor oil", but until you know firsthand not only the person, the exact type of oil, the kind of bike (Ducati does not have this concern), and where and when he rode those 60,000 miles, I'm going to trust MY personal experience backed up by my training in chemistry and engineering combined with the experience of others on this site.

    I'd hate to see anyone have to replace their clutch because "the other guy" had no problems.

    Or you can just go the the Mobil website and find this:

    Viscosity is not the entire story when it comes to oil. Please refrain from hearsay when the most important fluid in the engine is being discussed.
     
  18. scubaroboto

    scubaroboto Member

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    Perhaps that guy had an old BMW or Harley with a DRY clutch. That would make a significant differance in what will and will not work.
     
  19. day7a1

    day7a1 Member

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    Probably...I didn't know that those bikes had dry clutches...I'm not too familiar with BMW, but I know Harley doesn't use them anymore...

    Fill me in, please!
     
  20. happydog500

    happydog500 Member

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    You are right, I was going by someone on a forum I did not verify or know personally.
    Since I would never post anything that wasn't true, I took it for granted that others would do the same.

    The reason I was saying this, was one of the biggest study ever done on additives (cars), shows there is no difference, yet people swear by them. They have experiences with them.

    Take my friend. He put slick 50 in his boat. He said that after he put it in, it raised the rpms by 200rpm. He thought this is because everything is coated. His motor with this in it should be protected and last longer, like people say it does. His experience is it works (rpm increase).

    The scientific study, after 100,000 miles of the worst wear and tear you can do to a car, when taken apart and miked, there was no difference in ANY additives.

    People swear by products, based on, in part there experiences. But yet, they have been proven not to work.

    When I searched the forums, I found several people who have motorcycles they use regular motor oil. None of them have problems at all. One guy used regular oil in all his bikes. One person didn't even know about motorcycle oil.

    Then I see where some say you have to use "motorcycle oil". Since so many people don't use it, and with so many who swear by other types of stuff that is not true, I thought this was just like that.

    But you are right, I did not know them personally.

    Also, I was going to do some mods to my car. I didn't do it that weekend and went on a road trip. The motor blew up. If I would of done the mod, then right after it the motor blows, guess what? I would of thought, for sure, that's what caused it. You could not of convinced me that it was not the cause, but it wasn't.

    You are right thou, I did not know the people, personally. I do not know the people, personally, that recommended only use 'motorcycle oil' but I still took the advice and have only used Motorcycle Oil so far.

    Thank you for that advice. I don't want to have to replace anything I don't have to. It's only $7 more per change, so it's not to expensive.

    Chris.
     

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