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Yet another Carb Virgin. Questions follow!

Discussion in 'XJ Modifications' started by cg82, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    Hey Guys,
    I have recently undertaken the task of cleaning my carbs. Now I am not a mechanic by any means, I am a tradesman so I have decent mechanical apptitude but definatly not much in the way of mechanics. So after reading HOARDS of carb article's and write ups and manual how-to's I decided it was time. I took the rack off the bike fairly easily. broke up the rack easily enough. dun dun dun, it was time. So I have got my first carb apart. I am gonna do one at a time just to ensure I don't mix things up. After messing around with the carb a bit, i got it apart, its cleaned. It was actually pretty clean when I got it apart, which is a bit of a bummer because I probably didn't need to do this haha, oh well at least I know its done now. Anyway, I purchased most of my parts from chacal, however I did purchase a carb repair kit off ebay first. Now the float needle valve that was already in my carb had a little screen on it (which i crushed trying to remove, BAH) however my carb repair kid never had a screen on it. and the little "knob" that the screen attaches to is a different size on the valve that came in the kit. Is this the proper kit? The screen would not have fit on the new valve anyway so.... where should I go from here? Thanks

    Colin
     
  2. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    Hey Colin,

    There are a number of different float valve brass seats (the piece that the screen fits onto), and they do differ in design and in which screen will fit them. Here's the cheat-sheet:

    HITACHI FUEL INLET "FLOAT" VALVES:

    Original and aftermarket FUEL INLET "FLOAT" VALVE UNITS and KITS are a critical item to replace when performing a carb rebuild. Worn or damaged float valve seats or needles will cause bowl overflow and carb "flooding", making it impossible to set the fuel levels and float heights correctly, and leading to dangerous and damaging fuel overflow issues.

    NOTE1 on fuel inlet/float valve Seats, Filter Screens, and Needles:

    - original fuel inlet - float valve brass seats had a fuel inlet boss (where the inlet filter screen sits) of either 5.10mm (and thus uses the HCP9855 flat screen) or a 6.57mm boss with a 7.30mm "capture lip" (and this style float valve seat uses the HCP869 domed screen).

    - The HCP10 (OEM) kit comes with a flat screen and the float valve seat has a 5.10mm screen mounting boss. The float valve seat washer is made of copper as original.

    - The HCP1 kit (aftermarket) comes without a screen but the float valve seat has a 5.10mm screen mounting boss, so the HCP9855 FLAT screen can be used with these kits. The needle is the same length as the OEM needle and is rubber-tipped just like the original.

    - The HCP18210 kits (aftermarket) comes with a screen . The needle is the same length as the OEM needle and is rubber-tipped just like the original. The float valve seat washer is made of aluminum rather than copper.

    - The HCP17176 kits comes without a screen and the float seat has a 6.57mm screen mounting boss. The needle is slightly longer than the OEM needle and is metal-tipped (rather than rubber-tipped like the original needle). The float valve seat washer is made of aluminum rather than copper. These metal-tipped needles are a desirable option for people who live in an area where there is a significant amount of E-85 (alcohol) fuel blended with the gasoline. Ethanol tends to soften and attack rubber products, including the rubber tip of the original style float needles, which can then cause the float valve unit to stick (closed) or leak fuel even when in the closed position.


    NOTE2: on all of the float needles that use a retaining clip, please note that the clip can be installed in two different ways (orientations). User experience indicates that the clip should be positioned so that the "open" area of the clip (that part of the clip that snaps over the ridge on the top of the needle) should be oriented towards the "back" of the carbs; in other words, the open area of the clip should be towards the airbox.

    NOTE3: on all of the float needles that use a central, spring-loaded "plunger" at the float end, please note that this plunger is designed to act as a "shock absorber" and is not normally depressed in normal operation, and the float heights and fuel levels should not be set with this plunger depressed. Doing so will result in a vastly incorrect fuel level setting and will lead to carb flooding.



    QUESTION: does it matter which style fuel inlet - float valve seat/needle/etc. is used in your carbs?

    ANSWER: Not really, although it's probably best (but not absolutely necessary) to make sure that all 4 carbs use the same style set-up. The installation of any replacement fuel inlet - float valve seats and needles will require checking and re-adjustment of the fuel level and float heights after installation.. You should ALWAYS check and adjust your float levels anytime you go into your carbs----and periodically even if you don't! I know, it's a pain-in-the-tail light to adjust the float levels----but correct float levels really will insure that your bike performs at its best and will also prevent problems with carb flooding.


    HELPFUL HINT: in many cases, a float valve brass seat may get small scars, burrs, or other deformities in the area where the rubber needle tip contacts the seat opening, and thus preventing the fuel flow from being completely shut off even when the bowl is full. Such minor flaws can sometimes be polished out with some very fine (600-grit or higher) polishing paper rolled up into a very tight "cigarette" and then moved back-and-forth thru the opening. Likewise, any flaws on the internal bore of the seat......where the needle slides.....can sometimes be polished away. You should inspect the seat and needle very carefully, under good light and with strong magnification, in order to inspect these crucial parts during any rebuild process, or if carb flooding is indicated.



    NOTE: screens are not interchangeable between different style seats, since the style and diameter of the screen seat boss is different between each type of seat. Make sure that you properly identify which style seat you have before ordering replacement filters.


    HCP2644 Aftermarket Hitachi fuel inlet - float valve needle seat FLAT FILTER SCREEN, use one per carb, for use with float valve seats that have a 4.53mm screen boss (used on some original and aftermarket seats). This style screen pushes straight onto the brass seat screen boss. Each:

    HCP9855 Aftermarket Hitachi fuel inlet - float valve needle seat FLAT FILTER SCREEN, use one per carb, for use with float valve seats that have a 5.10mm screen boss (used on some original seats, and on the HCP1 aftermarket and the HCP10 oem seat assemblies). This style screen pushes straight onto the brass seat screen boss. Each:
    $ 6.95

    HCP869 Aftermarket Hitachi fuel inlet - float valve needle seat DOMED FILTER SCREEN, use one per carb, for use with float valve seats that have a a 6.57mm boss with a 7.30mm "capture lip" (used on many original seats). This style screen "snaps" onto the capture lip of the brass seat screen boss. Each:
     
  3. fullysika

    fullysika New Member

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    Hi Colin,
    I did exactly the same thing squashed it flat. I thought it was some kind of lizard egg that had been layed in the fule line? & was puzzled as to how I could repair the screen, while looking through my tool box i came across a 5mm allen key (a long one with a knob on the end) and used that to gently push the screen back into shape, worked a treat hope this helps you out

    myles
     
  4. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    i could definatly push it back into shape but i wasnt sure if it would work properly if the screen wasnt aboslutly perfect again.
     
  5. Ted

    Ted Member

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    One of mine was squished when I did my carbs too. I just ended up tossing them and running with no screens. I read on here somewhere awhile back that it doesn't effect performance at all but it's basically the last line of defense from little particles getting into the fuel circuits. You can ditch them but you definitely want to have a clean tank and a good in-line fuel filter.
     
  6. TIMEtoRIDE

    TIMEtoRIDE Active Member

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    Add an inline fuel filter (w/NEW hose) and you can run without the "beenie screens"

    While you are in the carbs - make DURN sure you clean the Pilot passages from the Pilot jet to the little, tiny holes at the butterflies.
     
  7. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    I have found that 3 out of 4 of my jets are random sizes. somebody has obviously been in here before. i was a bit hesitant because the bike ran what seems ok before I did this project so the jets obviously worked. but i figure i should make it proper, correct? SO. for the jets, i am at an elevation of 3400' I have read about rejetting. So if my main fuel is supposed to be a #110 (81xj650 canada) that means I should subtract 2 sizes per 2000' feet. so should i go to a #107? Pilot fuel, should i leave the same as I am not 6000' above sealevel and am not increasing my main fuel at all? and do i do anything to my main air jet? my pilot air jet was the only one that was correct.
     
  8. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    any info guys? i wanna order the jets up so I can get the carb project rolling.
     
  9. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    right now i have a 45 on the pilot fuel and a 55 on the main air.
     
  10. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    100% agree with TimeTR....no need for the screens if you put an inline filter on. No screens on any of my bikes.

    >Dun Dun Dun-- You referring to Captain Chaos? :)

    Dave F
     
  11. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    will be be ok to put in these jets? #45 and 55 instead of 40 and 50?
     
  12. TIMEtoRIDE

    TIMEtoRIDE Active Member

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    If you have the stock airbox, complete exhaust, and "paper-type" air filter, you should re-jet to "stock specs" even at 3,400' unless you plan on ROUTINELY riding up to 6,000' .

    Adjusting the "air jet" is the LAST bit of tuning you would try - once everything else doesn't work right.

    Start "stock" and let your plug color be your guide.

    If your bike is modified, or you want to "go rich" for some odd reason, tell us now.
     
  13. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    its not modified at all, those were the jets that were in the carbs so I wasnt sure if I should leave them or not.
     
  14. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    well guys, project is coming along nicely. should be putting last carb together tomorrow night, then comes the tuning and tinkering. question, to check to valves clearances, im gonna need a new gasket arnt I?
     
  15. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily.
    You might get lucky and be able to reuse the one you have.

    If it was oiled before going together, last time, you should be good.

    If you DO install a New Gasket use Elmers Glue or Gasket Sealant to hold the Ridge in the Mounting Channel.
    Lube the Mating Surfaces.
    Use a Artist Brush and "Paint" on a sheen of Oil so the Gasket Mates and "Squishes-down" tight.

    Now is the time to replace the Rubber Donuts that are under the Collars of the Cam Cover fasteners.
     
  16. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    you think eh? this carb project is sure way more expensive than you orignally might think haha. is it necessary to change these donuts?
     
  17. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    If they haven't been changed, then they are compressed and hardened. That means that they won't give you the correct pressure on the valve cover when you re-install it. THAT means that you will probably end up with a valve cover that constantly leaks around the gasket no matter what you try to do.

    Dave F
     
  18. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Those "donuts" are actually more important than the gasket itself, for the reasons Dave stated. While you've got a 50~50 shot that you can re-use the gasket, you'll certainly need new donuts.

    If the gasket is hard, crispy or cracked/split anywhere, then replace it as well.

    Once gasket and donuts have been replaced, they're good for many more 5000-mile valve clearance checks.
     
  19. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    thaks for all the help guys, so stoked to get this baby back on the road this summer. got a few other plans for it too before this summer so gotta get this done! anybody know any website for mirrors?
     
  20. mtnbikecrazy55

    mtnbikecrazy55 Active Member

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    Update your signature with your bike info as well as your location, makes it a lot easier to help ya!

    Not sure what bike you're looking for mirrors for
     
  21. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    Hey guys,
    well rebuild is going good. carbs are back on the bike. checking valves before I do some tuning. so i measured the clearances, i have one intake valve that is tight. everything else is in spec. and the one that is not is about 1 thou. off. what do you guys think? take everything apart to replace that one?
     
  22. quebecois59

    quebecois59 Well-Known Member

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    Loose valves are happy valves! If you have one tight, replace its shim. You don't have to take everything apart, if you were able to measure clearances, you already have the valve cover off, so the only thing you'll have to pull out is the shim itself and replace it with the right one according to the chart.
     
  23. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    You found a tight Valve.
    That's why we check them.
    Take corrective action BEFORE it becomes a problem.
    Problems resulting from Tight Valves are labor intensive and expensive.

    It's cheaper to buy a Shim Tool, one New Shim, and swap the tight Shim for the one that puts you within specs, ... than having to Pull the Head, get the Valve Seat Refaced, a New Valve Cut, buy a New Head Gasket and deal with all the possible complications that could run-up the tab if you break a butter-soft Manifold Cap Screw or a butter-soft Header Stud and have to play
    phaque-phaque getting yourself un-phaqued!
     
  24. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    alright. so according to what i have found, i need to measure what fits, get the number on the shim thats in now and compare to chart in order to order a new one, correct?
     
  25. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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  26. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    could somebody explain as to how it wears tighter? i dont really understand
     
  27. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Well, there's the difference from rocker-arm type systems.

    The only "wear" parts in the XJ valvetrain are the camshaft journals, cam lobes and the shims, and they really don't wear.

    What does happen is the valves pound themselves into their seats, causing the clearances to tighten up.
     
  28. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    Hey guys, damn near ready to start tuning here. ive got a few questions as to the process. ok when i fire it up, i know i gotta tune it to an idle of 1200 RPM. i start at 2.5 turns out on idle mix screws. im just wondering what order to start. do i start with the idle, then work on idle mix? when does the vacuum come into play? i bought the vac tuner and the color tune so i have the tools just not sure on the order of operations. Thanks, you guys have been crazy helpful.
     
  29. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    just found some of what ive been looking for. i forgot to bench sync them. i did adjust the butterfly valves to the same according to the light allowed in but thats as far as i went. have a made a big mistake or will i be able to get it synced still?
     
  30. chacal

    chacal Moderator Moderator Supporting Vendor Premium Member

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    That is exactly what a "bench synch" is.............to get the butterfly valves all set somewhat equal, so that it will be easier/possible to get the engien started. Once you get the engine started, then it's immediately time to do a running (vacuum) synch to get the engine properly synched. Also the proper time to do a mixture screw adjustment, i.e. "colortune".
     
  31. 750E-II_29Rbloke

    750E-II_29Rbloke Active Member

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    As chacal said, that's the bench sync done (and IMO the light technique is more accurate if you have a good eye, than the wire method).

    I'd start getting the engine running & adjust the idle as it warms to around 11-1200, then stop the motor, (if fitted block YICS passage, think yours is non YICS though?) attach sync gauges & do the running sync, then when that's done, do the colortune, then when that's done provided your brake shoes, pads, lines, fluid are in order & tyres safe, go ride your smooth powerful bike & smile a lot :D
     
  32. quebecois59

    quebecois59 Well-Known Member

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    After you did the colourtune, it is possible you'd have to sync the carbs again. They shouldn't be off by far, so it is sort of fine tuning. Then it is possible you have to fine tune with your colourtune again. And so on, how many times you'll have to do that cycle depends on how much a perfectionnist you are.

    While doing those cycles, you may notice that the idle speed goes off (above or below 1100-1200). Adjust it every time it is needed. It may also be the last step in the carb tuning process.
     
  33. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    The WIRE method leaves the Throttles cracked-open, ... allowing too-much AIR to ColorTune IDLE.

    Use 1/4-Inch wide strips of:
    • 35mm Negatives
    • 3X5 Card
    • Business Card
    • Resume' Paper

    Begin with the Throttles closed.
    Colortune BLUE is IDLE.
    There is a "Range" of Blue.
    The first sign of Blue is the correct Air~Fuel Mixture for IDLE.
    The Plant requires more RICHNESS than "Idle-Blue"
    Continue the ColorTune THROUGH the Blue, ... until the BLUE fades-out from the additional RICHNESS.

    THIS is "Supplemental Richness"
    The Supplemental Richness is necessary to provide FUEL to the Fresh Air that rushes-in to the Combustion Chamber un-fueled at the moment of OFF-IDLE.

    Just the right amount of Supplemental Richness will alleviate:
    Hesitation ---> Too little (Too Lean)
    Bogging-out ---> To much (Too Rich)

    Once you have the Pilot Mixture Screw in the proper setting to provide immediate Throttle Response ...

    Additional "Fine Tuning" of the Mixture Screw will only require "Tweaking"
    Tweaking:
    Tweaking involves the Mixture Screw to be hardly moved at-all.

    If a Stopwatch Hand sweeps 60-Seconds in One Minute ... 15 Seconds would be a Quarter turn.

    The Adjustments made to the Mixture Screw in the Final Tweaking of Fine Tuning will be just a nudge.
    5-seconds or less.
    About the width of a Nickel or a Dime.
     
  34. 750E-II_29Rbloke

    750E-II_29Rbloke Active Member

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    I used business card to start with, then tried wire from sandwich bag wire ties & found neither one as consistent as judging the light levels :?

    And surely after using any method of bench sync you'd set the idle on the bike anyway?
     
  35. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    Well guys, it roars!!! Got it fired up last night, got the vac synced. just gotta do the idle mix now with the colortune. probably do that later today. just thought I would share my excitment! pretty happy that it fired up ha
     
  36. 750E-II_29Rbloke

    750E-II_29Rbloke Active Member

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    Congratulations good to hear another one brought back to life :D you have sorted the brakes/tires right?

    Good stuff :)
     
  37. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    brakes and rubber is next. then wrapping exhaust.
     
  38. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    alright guys. so i went to take exhaust off and discovered that the set screw bolts to hold header piece into pipes are broken off. woo next question, so i went to jack up my bike but looking at it, im hesitant to jack it up with my jack cause i dont wanna crush exhaust pipes and they are lower than case. thoughts?
     
  39. 750E-II_29Rbloke

    750E-II_29Rbloke Active Member

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    I jacked mine up with a block of wood spreading the load (lifted front wheel clear of ground, didn't put whole weight of bike on the pipes obviously).

    If you lift the front wheel by hand you'll see that most of the weight is taken by the centre stand & lifting the front only takes about 10-15kg? of force, if that, as long as the pipes aren't rotten they'll be OK. If they were rotten I guess it wouldn't matter if they did crush lol
     
  40. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    is there an aftermarket exhaust that will not require me to rejet?
     
  41. 750E-II_29Rbloke

    750E-II_29Rbloke Active Member

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    Very subjective thing aftermarket exhausts and re-jetting, generally I'd say not, some people claim not to have had to with various brands but it could be that their bike ran rich before it was fitted/their air filter is blocked/they live on a mountain in thinner air etc or even they just don't care.

    IIRC somebody did have a thread somewhere about MAC pipes & they were pretty close, but I'd suggest whatever exhaust you fit to keep a close eye on plug chops and decide whether to upjet or not then (not the end of the world if you do have to, bonus if you don't).

    I'll have a look for that thread and link it so you can see what was said there
     
  42. 750E-II_29Rbloke

    750E-II_29Rbloke Active Member

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    http://xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=41735.html

    Here it is, gets a bit off topic at the end & it turns out to be the sellers NOT a MAC user who say no re-jetting. As I said on that thread, all that can be said with any certainty is "you MAY need to re-jet" :?
    Sorry
     
  43. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    Next question! i wish there was some way to edit the title of this thing. I went to change my front breaks, got tire and rotor off. brake piston extended for some reason. I CANNOT push it back in. I have tried numerous methods. anybody else have this problem?
     
  44. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    The Caliper Piston needs to be Square and True before pressed back into the Caliper.
    Before pressing the Piston back-in, ... inspect the Caliper's Main Seal Locating Channel.
    It needs to be spotlessly clean.

    Reinstalling the Caliper Piston.
    Use a C-clamp and a Socket.
    Place a Large Socket inside the Caliper Piston.
    Use two layers of Cereal Box Cardboard taped to the Caliper to prevent scratching the Logo.
    Tape a Quarter over the Square on the end of the Socket.
    Spread the C-clamp such that it will fit onto the Quarter and Caliper.
    Lube the Piston with clean Brake Fluid.
    Begin tightening the C-clamp while keeping the Piston squared-up.

    Slowly compress the Piston back into the Caliper by tightening the C-clamp until the Piston is seated.

    (Remove the Bleed Screw before re-seating the piston)
     
  45. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    is there something i can spray on and use to clean? as it is pretty gunked up. some sort of lube? WD40 or something, just something with a bit of pressure than i can spray and clean it up, might help me fix it?
     
  46. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    AutoZone or Auto Parts Store

    BrakeKleen
    Disc Brake Kleen
    Brake Clean
     
  47. cg82

    cg82 Member

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    well guys, fired her up and its on the road! pretty happy i did it, even though i felt pretty overwhelmed sometimes. however, now im getting a bit of a clicking sound from what sounds like under the valve cover. i did change 2 shims, anybody experienced this?
     

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