The Future is Now...Almost!

Check out Seca electric conversion.

http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=68


http://evworld.com/insider.cfm?archyr=2 ... dition=241

 

I started a thread that covered that bike about 2 weeks ago.
http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=40973.html have to scroll down a little. Didn't think the conversion was worth it since the range was 15 to 20 miles per 6 hour charge, then there would be the battery replacement cost every couple of years.
Did you see the Elio 3 wheeler? http://www.eliomotors.com/

 

The future is way too quiet.

And I'm too old to care. Gimme Global Warming (and a bike that makes noise.) Electric vehicles will NEVER have my kind of range. (Or raw, visceral reward.)

I'd rather have one of these:

 

Elio
An inline, 3 cylinder, 1 liter, 70 HP, fue l-injected, DOHC gas-powered, liquid-cooled, automotive engine.

Pretty cool, I'd rather have that over a Spyder ...

 

I'm with you Fitz.
The electrics are cool in a way but I'd rather have the raw power and the smell of fuel...

 

wonder why they painted a yamaha, kawasaki green?

 

Cause it's a "green" vehicle so they thought it needed to be green

 

Beside the green its a good ideas. But I work 5 days a week or more and 30 miles away. I really don't think some random stranger will let me plug my bike in to get home. But that wont work all the time because by the time the bike charged ill have to go back to work. Have to say if I worked close like he did yes I get it. BUT WHY NOT BUY A SCOOTER cheap easy to work with and cost less then his bike would even in a long run.

 

52 ~ 56 MPG:



I live 56 miles from work, and scooters suck on the freeway.

 

The times they are a changin'

Brammo Empulse

BTW...scooters suck on the freeway? That all depends on the scooter. A Yamaha Morpheous will cruse comfortably at 80 MPH all day long, and it's only a 250cc scoot.

 

is the "green" part the coal they burn to make the electricity or the
lithium in the battery

 

Amen to that Polock! The only truly 'green' transpo is 'barney & fred' or a horse! They even poop green :lol:

Sorry 80mph or not-I will not be getting on the freeway around here on anything with 250cc or less, especially not a scooter. The 550 will easily do 110mph and behaves better with the new fairing but even it gets abused by the west wind and the megaton traffic going 80mph!!

I must agree with some previous posts, the sound, the smell, the rush, hell I even like the smell of diesel!! But don't take away my electricity, I still need that too.

 

ill never take a scooter on a freeway. or that fast. thats like sitting on a 5 gallon bucket going 80mph. no thanks.

 

Fitz, that XJR is on my wish list too... Hopefully, there will be a 2014 model this year

 

The one I posted is a 2005, I believe it was the last year for dual mufflers. They've all had a 4-1 since; and there is/was a 2013 offering: http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/motorcyc ... JR1300.htm

 

I really don't think it's a matter of if electric vehicles will be widely adopted, only when. And batteries capable of taking you hundreds of miles will be developed in time. Just like any technology, as soon as the economic incentives build to a high enough level we'll see innovations left and right.

As for the sound and smell - I'll miss the sound of a combustion engine but some of these electric cars and bikes sound like fighter jets or F1 cars which is cool in it's own right! Less carcinogens are always a plus as well.

If you're a speed junkie electric can already supply you with what you need.

 

I will tell you when - when a battery the size of a gas tank can take you as far as a gas tank. Barring a major breakthrough in physics that doesn't look likely.

Electric vehicles have been around over a hundred years. Ain't there yet.

 

Plus it 100% torque from a dead stop. I was thinking about converting my rx7 to an EV but when I price out Lion batteries I was like... hmmyeah no thanks I could buy a mercedes for that much.

 

You know that they account for that when comparing gas vehicles to electrics? There is a huge efficiency difference between a giant electrical plant running at peak efficiency off of some combustible fuel, and an overpowered ICE that never runs at peak torque. Also, electric means that as energy production improves in efficiency and reduces pollution, you automatically take advantage of it, where if you have an ICE engine now, you'd need a new engine to take advantage of updates in efficiency (VVT, Hybrid, etc). The cost of electricity is really small compared to gasoline, and unlike gasoline, you are automatically diversified in the method of energy production.

Furthermore, there's more to pollution than all of the attention "Carbon" (CO2) gets today. Cities with too much vehicular transportation suffer from a lot of low level noxious pollution due to their proximity to exhaust, which affects respiratory health. Electrics move that pollution out of the population centers (and can even be required to better manage it, think scrubbers on coal plants).

Finally, I agree that electric vehicles are still "in the future" but realize that there's a reason why, although they've been around for 100 years, they haven't died yet. The tech will catch up with the dream. And motorcycles are really a great platform, because of their low weight due to lack of safety features that cars have, and their prevalence around the world in heavily populated cities. That Brammo Empulse is supposed to take only 4 hours to fully charge from a standard 110V outlet and have a range well over 50 miles. It could be a fun commuter (obviously the price is high now).

 

I need AT LEAST a 150-mile range for me to even consider the idea.

 

I understand scooter wont work best for all people but if you live 25 miles from work city roads atleast you wont have to push your bike and walk 5.. but Fitz I just got my bike almost 100% I took it for a small ride and if ill get 56 MPG( around will be awesome ) with that much power and fun why not just go hybrid and double the number.... still. Of gas smell but also a battery for say traffic or city maybe.. I know there's a write up out there but I'm just saying.

 

Actually its the overseas shipping costs, including gallons and gallons of fuel and oil, the inland shipping costs, more fuel and oil, the subsidies for corn farming where the output in corn and corn derivatives are directly proportional to the use of fuel in gallons, and all the corn goes into feed for the workers that make, transport and sell the bike.

Make the total production and distribution of all the vehicles electric, first - not just the manufacturing plants.

 

The green color is a feel-good issue. Like vegetarian bacon for vegetarians. They feel good because they get the benefit of the feast of the flesh, without feeling bad about the murder part, despite the blood and bone meal that helped grow the "vegetation".

I'm with Henry Ford - gimme hemp fuel and hemp plastic parts, and all that green growth can help "scrub" the air pollution.

Besides someone will still be pissed that you're riding two wheels when you pass their mininvan quietly.

I'd rather they HEAR me while they're texting.

 

I have a friend who has a Tesla S, and he has solar panels on his house. Sells juice back to the electric company and charges his car. Now, it might take several lifetimes to recoup his cash outlay, but...all this electric cars burn coal stuff is kinda silly. Especially considering all the wind turbines, solar and hydroelectric around.

 

Bike OR car. Absolute minimum for it to be meaningful or practical for me. Until then, it's "developing technology" not "mainstream."

 

Tesla S range is listed at 300 miles. My friend's is brand new, so don't know if he's tested that yet. I may go check it out this weekend. I'll let you guys know. I've driven a Nissan Leaf, I can tell you, its range is not what it's cracked up to be. Not the way I was driving it, anyway.

 

I can see an electric motorcycle become mainstream without being able to drive long distances given what most people ACTUALLY do with their vehicle, which is commute to work and back (in total miles). And most don't even commute 50 miles each way. I know many out there do, but I'm not talking of meeting everyone's expectation, just most.

Meeting a consumer's extended range requirement might be too much for an electric, and I don't expect electrics completely replace ICE vehicles.

I live in a suburb outside Washington DC. It's only 6 miles to my work, yet it takes anywhere from 20 mins to 1 hour. I started bicycling a year ago, because it takes 35 minutes consistently,no matter what traffic is out there, even though I go out of my way to avoid traffic (7.5 miles each way). I don't bike everywhere. I still jump in a car to get groceries 2 miles down the street, but I can easily plan/manage my commute to work, so a bicycle serves that specific need.

I think an electric motorcycle, that is still fun to drive, can be perfect for someone who doesn't go on long rides, but wants to commute into work. It can serve a very specific need, and doesn't need to do everything well, like we expect from cars. It just needs to be more affordable for that role.

 

Scooters have come a long way in the past 20 years. The Morpheous isn't sold in the US anymore, but this is Yamaha Majesty
Not meaning to be rude, but your argument sounds a lot like one that my cager friends use to explain why they won't ride a motorcycle. I've ridden my Zuma 125 (now 155, maybe going to be 200 some day) at close to 70MPH, and something that small does get a little hairy (especially if it's windy) but the larger scoots are just as stable as any motorcycle, and can carry a couple bags of gorceries to boot

 

And that's another thing. You want EV to make some inroads, you need to get a charge time comparable to the 5 minutes it takes to fill a tank. Again, need something new to happen in physics.

 

Consider this...... It took 1800 years for the steam engine to be developed to the point that it became a practical tool. The development of electrical transportation stalled once the ICE became viable (steam also stalled for a time). The gains in electric motors and batteries, that have allowed the development of bikes like what Brammo are making, have only occurred within the last 15 years. While the energy density of a battery won't ever come close to that of gasoline, it is a viable alternative for 80% of what most people do. My ideal garage has a scooter for messing around on, an ICE bike for long trips, and an electric for every day use.

 

What's hard about plugging in while you're at work? Electrics won't be the solution for every situation, but they will be come a viable alternative.
Ideally I'd want a small fusion reactor powering a warp capable hover bike. But I'm probably in what would be considered a "niche" in terms of marketing.

 

Not everyone can plug in at work and the more this happens, I'm sure a boss or 2 will put a end to it or start charging you for it.

 

My employer can keep $2.00/month from my paycheck

Who remembers from history class that once upon a time gasoline was sold in quart bottles at the general store, and nowhere else?

 

I remember that. I wonder how long it would take for a solar charger to charge all those batteries? LOL

 

Consider the ASSUMPTION that being able to fill up at a "station" in "5min" is the only way to refuel a vehicle conveniently. That has been ingrained in our thinking for so long that it seems like the only solution. But what happens when you run out of gas and there isn't a gas station around? Are there other buildings, which have power? An EV would win in that specific situation.

Almost every destination you go to has electricity. "Why would business owners wouldn't let you charge on their dime?" you ask. Well they already let you do things on their dime, just to get customers in the door buying their product. The have parking lots, they offer A/C, shopping carts, free trials, coupons, public bathrooms, all "costs" that increase business. Allowing you to charge an EV while you shop is just another cost that could be out-weighed by the sales it creates.

So just think, if every time you went shopping, you charged your car a little. At someone else's expense. And you wouldn't even have to wait in long lines at a gas station, trying to find the one with the cheapest gas, worrying about how a war half way around the world will affect gas price (yes, it can affect electricity prices too, but there's more diversity in that market).

I personally think the future looks bright.

 

I agree that EV vehicles will only improve with time. And after watching the video for the Brammo, and imagining myself in the Matrix Reloaded...

I heard a story on NPR friday nite about the growing need to make hybrid and electirc cars have more sound - for the hearing impaired at crosswalks. So I am not the only one that wants some volume.

Sorry maximike, last year 44% of electricity came from coal, and the other three combined barely produced 10%. And the Feds are desperately trying to prop up the renewables, but in reality (and I am total supporter of solar and wind) they may never replace coal and hydro for our growing electric needs.

With the Tesla S starting at (ouch) $52000, it's outta my budget.

Then there's Rush's opinion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djVGhqvl_8A

 

Considering what I pay for electric at home, I can imagine sticker shock for shopping malls that will need to install "electric pumps" at all their parking spaces, like a drive-in theater(the estimate for a Nissan Leaf is $500/yr in electrical costs for an average driver).

Although if they are like parking meters, with credit-card swipers, then why not.

The true issue will be the *already-failing electric grids in this country that can barely handle the addition of new homes and buildings.

 

For starters, a complete absence of places to do so. There are no outlets in our parking garage. Also, I go to many more places than just work.

It's not an assumption. It's a fact. The need to spend multiple hours charging is an inconvenience, and will stay an inconvenience no matter how well you plan around it. A workaround is not a fix.

Actually, no, it won't. Even assuming I happen to run out of juice next to an outlet (and what are the chances of that? See many outlets on the side of the highway?) I will still have to sit there for hours to get a charge. When my bike ran out of gas I walked to a gas station, got a gallon of gas, and got back on the bike inside of a half hour. When my wife ran out of gas in her car I grabbed a can and brought her a gallon. Took 15 minutes. Advantage goes to transportable fuels.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Go to any major downtown - businesses don't have parking of their own and streets don't have charging sockets. Sure, they might eventually, but that is a huge investment in the infrastructure and a lot of work. It might happen eventually, but not tomorrow, and not next year.


As far as where the electricity comes from, I'll just leave this here:

 

The problem with customers charging up would be, 1 or 2 customers would be a minimal cost to the business. But how much would 10 to 50 customers cost added to all the others throughout the day, everyday of the month's billing cycle?
Think about how much your home electricity bill jumps in the summer with the AC use.
Same could be applied to CNG operated cars, They say that natural gas is cheaper and more abundant than oil. But every winter the cost of natural gas goes up because of increased demand.
What do think will happen when more electricity and natural gas is used to fuel our vehicles?

 

You only spend multiple hours charging if you drain your "tank." Long distance trips do give an overwhelming advantage toward transportable fuels. But short distance trips would not require so much refueling.

It does require a different ConOps though, but weighing different ConOps is high subjective based on our conditioning and expectations. It would never make sense to top off you gas tank if you burned 1/4 of a gallon. So you drive around for a week until you get down to a 1/4 tank, then fill up. And you need to be able to "fill" quickly. But there's no need to empty a tank on an EV before filling up.

Think about how much investment went into putting a gas station at every corner so it could be convenient. The convenience of gasoline (a highly volatile, toxic, scarce resource) was built up over many decades. What I think is promising about EV vs CNG is that the infrastructure is easier to put in place because 1. We need a better electrical infrastructure anyway, as we replace and maintain our existing infrastructure and 2. The only infrastructure needed at the point-of-sale is the charging apparatus, which is a lot cheaper than installing tanks, fire suppression systems, pumps etc.

I understand why gas powered ICE is still the way to get around, and will be in the near future (I still drive 'em) and there is nothing wrong with being critical of new technology, but all of the advances in EV technology are moving in the right direction to increase it's viability and competitiveness. Heck, I used to fear the future of motorcycling without the exhaust note (and I used to think that Harleys were the only "real motorcycles") but I actually get excited about it further we get along.

Higher energy prices would make alternative forms of energy production more profitable, increasing their development and use. Sustaining "cheap" energy might be impossible regardless of the development of EV, however, a lack of diversity in energy production for transportation use isn't a great plan either.

 

anyone signup for smart electric meters, their out there now. rates based on the time of day and the ability for the utility to throttle your usage. plug in your EV and the AC might go off or the heat or hot water. i could see a EV surcharge on electric bills. do the prices of the plug-in cars include the chargers that a electrician installs, if your current service can handle the load?
is the range of EV's with the heater on? i can do without AC but by gosh i need a heater

 

Well, "short distance" is relative. In some places, that's around the block, and in some places it's 20 miles. I know a guy with a 50 mile commute - he works in DC, you can't find anything reasonably priced close to work there.

And it will take some time to build EV infrastructure, too. Longer in sparsely populated areas. I'm not saying it won't happen, just not right away.


Really, my biggest problem with EV is the cost of batteries. You can't fix them, you can only replace them. So, if and when the EV's replace the ICV, there will pretty much be no used car or used bike market. The stuff outside the battery hardly ever breaks, and the battery will be worth a lot more than the rest of the vehicle. They won't ever get super-cheap because of the exotic materials required. Unless some new discovery in physics/chemistry changes battery tech completely. There will be no more buying a $200 bike, putting another $300 into it and having something rideable. I'm thinking a complete switch to EV will just price a lot of folks into walking and public transportation.

 

First: Great topic. This was a fun one.

Second: How about this, my Macbook has one of those magnetic AC connections so when my kid runs around the table, and trips the wire (or I trip it after an extra couple beers) it snaps right out.

Maybe we could be looking at a TRON world soon, if we line the road with magnetic electricity transmitters that get picked up by the bikes (and cars I suppose).

No more charging. Bikes are always on, and always neon

 

This could help one of the charging issues, there's technology to remotely charge small electronic devices, without a physical connection. This could expand such that a car could charge anytime it parks.

That's actually the point I'm trying to make. I too believe EVs are very far away from meeting everyone's needs, but they are very close to meeting most personal transportation needs, and due to their weight, EV motorcycles are even closer.

When it comes to batteries, look up the stories about people "bricking" their Teslas. A concerning feature of Li-Ion batteries is that if you deep discharge the battery, you ruin it. It would totally change the whole idea of a "barn find."

However, it would be nice dealing only with the suspension/brake/bearing/tire maintenance of that brammo empulse . But as prices go down on batteries (and they will), it'll be easier than ever to resurrect an old vehicle.

Another "feature" of Li-Ion batteries it's notoriously difficult to accurately predict the SOC because you can't directly measure it under load like you can specific gravity of a lead acid battery. Therefore, you leave extra margin in the controllers because you never want to over charge or discharge an Li-Ion battery (especially in Hybrids). However I've read some very interesting papers on using Extended Kalman Filters to accurately estimate the SOC of these batteries. Brilliant people are working on very clever solutions to each of the issues that EVs present, and personally, that's what makes it so exciting for me.

I agree that this is a fun topic, and from personal experience, it's probably easier to convert a Turbo Seca to EV than restore it completely...but that's another issue (almost there).

 

What about fuel cells or battery exange stations instead of pulling into a gas station for fuel you pull in for an excahange battery all it would need was the manufacturers to settle on a standard size battery and some why to lift it in and out of the boot. The Travel range
would be not be such an issue.

 

You're sorry because I'm right? 44% is less than half, last I checked So MOST of the time, the electricity ISN'T produced by coal. QED.

Look, that's not my point, anyway. I'm just being argumentative. The point is, that saying an electric car is just like a gas car because the electricity is still produced by fossil fuels is completely false. Yes, RIGHT NOW it's expensive to not (at least partially) burn fossil fuels to charge an electric car, but it is very, very possible. My mom's neighbors produce all their own power with wind and solar, the friend with the Tesla does the same, etc. The point, is that you CAN (if you're willing and able) power them with renewable sources. Some folks would have you believe there's no choice but coal and natural gas, false false false. People think solar is some pipe dream. When really, it's just easier to be on the grid right now, but trust me, the technology is here NOW, every house could (in theory) have solar panels on it NOW producing the bulk of our power.

I have no problem with hydro power, I'm not that much of a hippie. Also it's local. That's why I mentioned it before.

Also, yes, the Tesla S is very expensive(but no more so than the luxury cars I see every day) but it's a first generation, limited production, made to order car. My friend waited maybe a year to even get his. But everything is expensive at first. VCR's cost like $800 at one time, now you can't give one away. Price will come down, or its longer range tech will make its way to cheaper cars, like the Leaf.

I know we're arguing the same side of this argument I just get fired up seeing imaginary obstacles being thrown up in front of electric vehicles. There are only three REAL problems with them. Recharge time, range, and cost. (and really I don't want to put range in there, as I think the Tesla has licked that one)

Even if they are powered by power plants burning coal, so what? That's coal from HERE, not the middle east. Also, it's still (arguably) cleaner and clearly much cheaper to run an electric off the standard grid powered by coal. Pennies on the dollar. Totally worth it, as soon as there's a long range, quick charge, cheap electric car(or bike) I'll be first in line.

 

They have already had that for a while. In Japan. Of course.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/

 

Assuming anyone still makes the battery it takes.

That's another thing. Cars and bikes take the same gas no matter if they are 5 or 35 years old. At worst, you got something that needs leaded gas and you just use a lead substitute additive. With batteries, you are not going to have that. Look at cell phones and laptops - no two use the same battery.

It's not a pipe dream, but it's got it's own problems. Cost, environmental impact of manufacturing. The need for batteries.

And for us here in MN, clearing the snow off the panels.

 

You know what, screw the debate on ELECTRIC motorization! ONLY good if you live in urban areas! Gas will never go away. Liquid fuel can never be replaced! Why because no body really wants to change and the alternatives are ALL too expensive. If you want to do away with it then you have to make the vehicles competitive with gas burners price wise. And I'm not buying something for 60 grand when I can get the same thing for 30 grand or less and it runs on gas. If its not competative price wise it won't work.

 

Gas might go away, to be replaced by another chemical fuel. It might happen that something else will be found that is cheap to produce.

Or, we could suddenly get better at converting energy and stop wasting so much of it in the process. Your average IC engine only uses 20% of the energy in the fuel to do something useful, the rest is wasted as heat.