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Newb... bike not starting, taking apart the engine...

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by surfbro311, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. surfbro311

    surfbro311 New Member

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    So here seems the issue. 1982 xj650 maxim. Go to start the bike, starter is working and turns the next gear and i can see the clutch start to engage and then suddenly it will stop turning and a grinding noise that sounds like either the gear isnt catching or is slipping. How do i get to this gear? do i have to take the bottom of the engine off/the oil pan to get to it to see whats really happening? Also I am in the process of just taking the whole engine out of the frame and have come to an issue as to where I cannot remove 3 /4 of the bolts that are attaching the drive shaft to the engine. Its such a crappy location where you can't fit a ratchet in and any wrench seems to strip it. I've sprayed lubrication to try and loosen the bolts and use a vice grip on it. No luck... any suggestions on both of my issues would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. rocs82650

    rocs82650 Well-Known Member

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    surfbro311,

    Don't really know what's going on with your gears. Members will chime in soon. Removal of the rear wheel will allow you to turn the shaft to access those bolts (I just read that :D ). Hopes this helps.

    Gary
     
  3. surfbro311

    surfbro311 New Member

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    yeah i read about that in the manuel too. as while attempting to remove those bolts you must hold the brake so the wheel doesn't turn.Its just a matter of theres like only a one inch gap if that between the bolt and where i can fit anything into the spot . I tried turning the wheel and taking the bolts off in a manner so that it equally relieves the pressure onto the other bolts..
     
  4. ecologito

    ecologito Well-Known Member

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    If you really want to get them loose spray them with kroil. I am using it for the first time and I was amazed, WD-40 is like glue compared to this stuff. I am never going back to any other thing.

    You can buy it on amazon or order directly here:
    https://secure.cnchost.com/kanolabs.com ... r_hf.shtml
     
  5. MiGhost

    MiGhost Well-Known Member

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    The grinding noise you are hearing is most likely the starter clutch. In order to replace it you will need to open up the case.

    Removal of the bolts on the driveshaft flange is not absolutely necessary. The flange will slide off the end of the driveshaft along with the motor. Once the engine is removed you can hold it with a pry bar, and break the bolts loose with a socket.

    Ghost
     
  6. Foolber

    Foolber Member

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    Wizards correct me if in wrong but...

    Yamahas around this time use what is called a "recluse clutch" starter (spell check?) Basically your starter moves in and out, when you go to start your bike a spring type piece will push your gear on the starter into the flywheel, then when your bike is started it will pop back into its original position so that your starter isnt spinning constantly with the flywheel. What i do beilive your problem is would be the spring is no longer attached, quite a simple fix but honestly i haven't done this on an XJ before. i Fixed one on a 750 Virago and that was the problem. As for the driveshaft i havent worked on mine yet but if you have a tight spot and cant get to it with a ratchet your best bet is the closed end of a wrench.

    Your starter is held in place with 3 bolts, and easy to remove. But i do believe that you might have to get the airbox out of the way first, my bike isnt in my garage right now otherwise i would go take a peak at it. Hope this helps!
     
  7. MiGhost

    MiGhost Well-Known Member

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    No. The XJ's use a sprag gear starter. The drive gear on the starter is fixed, and drives an idler gear that then engages the starter clutch. What the starter clutch does is allow the starter system to engage the primary chain, and turn the engine over. When the starting system is not in use. The starter clutch freewheels allowing the engine to run without the starting system gears being engaged.

    Typical XJ starter mounting would be two bolts through the housing endcap into the case. Removal of the airbox is not necessary to remove the starter.

    Ghost
     
  8. Foolber

    Foolber Member

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    Holy macrol, learn sometin new every day. But yet another reason I wish kickstarts were standard on every motorcycle like the good old days...
     
  9. bigfitz52

    bigfitz52 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    MIGHT need to split the cases. Starter clutches do fail, but rarely; quite often the problem lies elsewhere.

    There are a few other diagnostics you should do first. Depending on what OIL is in the bike, the starter clutch could be slipping because of incorrect lubrication, or because it's gummed up. An oil change or two could be all that's needed to "fix" the problem.

    The starter clutch will also "slip" (not cause the sprag clutch to engage) if the starter itself isn't spinning fast enough, or is weak, or again, gummed up. You may need to service the starter, or attend to a wiring issue.

    Have you fully charged and then taken your battery in to have it load tested? A simple weak battery can cause your symptom.

    If you do in fact have to replace the starter clutch, it requires a full engine teardown and split the crankcases. You cannot get to it from the sump.

    But before you get to that point, you have a lot of other possible causes to investigate first. You're WAY jumping the gun yanking the motor before having investigated all of the other possibilities.

    And you'll need a service manual. If you're going to split the cases, you'll need a FACTORY service manual, the Haynes misses too many details.
     
  10. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    I have NEVER had a starter gear go bad. ANY time I've had the same symptoms as you, the issue has simply been that the battery is getting weak.....and/or it's getting really cold outside--which drops the batteries power, and a little time on the charger/booster solves the problem.

    The other big possibility is that the brushes are worn down.

    I'd check battery first, and then brushes. Don't take the engine out if you don't need to. If you WANT to, that's up to you...................


    Oh, just saw Fitz's post.............yup, gotta agree with the battery check, first.............
    Dave Fox
     
  11. day7a1

    day7a1 Member

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    What they said....besides, the bike won't start any better after you take apart the engine.

    Also, if you give a bit more background info it's a bit easier to diagnose...where are you, when was the last time the bike started, etc.

    BTW, my bike does this on the first start whenever the temp dips below 55 F. Just turned the light off, turned the bike back on again and gave it another whirl. It would always start up, but that is a horrible horrible sound, especially for something that's not really broken!
     
  12. hogfiddles

    hogfiddles XJ-Wizard, Host-Central NY Carb Clinic Moderator Premium Member

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    +1 on the 'turn the lights off and turn the key back on again" thing......The 650 was designed so that when the bike fires, the rpm will trigger the electrical system to open the relays for the juice to flow to the lights.......as soon as that happens, juice is flowing from the battery to power that stuff, too, if the bike fires once but doesn't catch. Now you're trying to start the bike with a battery that's definitely not give full cranking amps to the starter.

    So, turning the key off, then turning it back on, kills the lights and allows more juice to the the starter.

    I used that trick every cold day, too, even with a booster if it didn't catch. Yup, turn the switch off, turn it back on....try again...........

    Some mornings if it was down in the lower 30's or lower yet, it could take 10 minutes before I got it going.

    Once I went to an AGM - type battery, and kept full amps up, I never had an issue again.

    Dave F
     
  13. day7a1

    day7a1 Member

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    I had a long gentle downhill slope, some mornings I just knew better. Back up, start kicking, off I go!! I don't believe in idle warm ups, the first few minutes I take it really really easy, it's not like I'm 30 seconds from the freeway or anything.
     
  14. surfbro311

    surfbro311 New Member

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    Okay well, when i got the bike i got it to run once. but only after hammering on the starter after a while and it making that grinding noise. I purchased a new battery for the bike right away and changed the oil twice. When i got it to start it sputtered out at the end of the block as I was coming to a stop and wouldnt crank up again. So i dont know if it was luck it started right away. I got the bike for a 100$ with title it has 43k miles on it. I got a rebuilt starter and new solenoid after that. as well. The spark plugs were replaced and have oil on them after that initial run so i figured i needed to check out the pistons and see if the rings are messed up.
     
  15. RickCoMatic

    RickCoMatic Well-Known Member

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    You should have done a Compression Test ... before ... you might be unpleasantly surprised by what you find when you get around to doing one.

    Since you only laid-out a hundred bucks for the Bike, ... if it turns-out that it needs major work, ... you can make your money back selling a few parts.

    Job One.
    Compression Test results.

    Post the Compression Test results and we'll advise you on where you stand and what you should do next.
     
  16. MercuryMan

    MercuryMan Active Member

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    Check to make sure you haven't overfilled it with oil-they don't take very much as in just a little over 2 qts. If its over filled it will force oil up into the breather box. With the bike on the center stand you can check the oil level on the clutch cover window.

    Compression check would also be a good place to start. For $100 a semi-running XJ is a good deal, but you're going to put in a few bills to get it right.
     

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