question about bikes addicted to starting fluid

i keep reading that be careful on using starter fluid too much, or too much of it etc because then the bike will come to rely on it. unfortunatly, i may be in that boat now so my question is.... once the bike requires it to start, what is the remedy for fixing it? just a carb overhaul, or something deeper than that?

i didnt need it last year, but now i need just a little to get it going at the beginning of each day then it runs like a champ. basically if i leave it sit for more than about 6 hours, the next time i start it it needs a little help. when its warm, or had been run its butter to start and everything operates perfectly.

i only started using it to get it going again after the re-work i did over the winter, but now i fear it has become needy and its not a huge issue but i could see it becoming an issue in the future. plus, i hate the idea of carrying a bottle with me whenever i go somewhere where i will be for more than a few hours. lol i even toyed with the idea of trying to find a mini bottle of it to throw under the seat, but...id rather not

 

Had the same problem last year. I adjusted my valves and got a new battery and the problem went away,

 

razz1969 has the right idea.

The only thing that these motorcycles can get "used" to is being poorly tuned to the point that the engine is damaged, like running too lean until you hole a piston, oil starving the engine, burning a valve, or losing compression due to wear and tear/lack of maintenance. That's the only thing that they "remember."

Everything else is just the bike falling further and further out of tune due to a lack of maintenance. Do the maintenance and it'll run like new.

Fully cleaned and rebuilt carbs that work as designed, good compression on all cylinders, valves adjusted, wiring harness checked/connectors cleaned/repaired, a good charging system, new-strong battery, new plugs, fresh gas, and a proper sync and idle tune, and the bike won't care home much starter fluid was used on it in the past. Once that stuff burns, it's not like it leaves anything behind.

These aren't living things. They don't get used to start fluid, I think some owners get used to using it instead of doing the proper maintenance and blame the bike instead of a lack of maintenance.

 

sounds like i need a new battery then, as most of the other things you list have been worked on but the battery was new last june, but i have thought it has been iffy for awhile so maybe ill try that. then a vacuum sync and also i should look into the charging system but the valves are newly in spec and carbs cleaned. most electrical connections that i can see have been cleaned up a bit, plugs were new last year too but for $8 i may as well get some new ones..

cool, thanks for some good ideas on what to look at next

 

How far did you go in the carb cleaning? Breaking the rack? Replacing throttle shaft seals? Ensuring the wells in the float bowls are clean? Wet setting the float levels?

What is your compression like?

Charging system is a biggie when it comes to battery health. Test it. Also, if it's not being ridden regularly, and tender is a must. Fully charge your battery and load test it.

I've also been having a great time with AGM batteries in both of my Secas, but they're only 8 months old now.

 

i did as good of a job as possible (thats subjective, i know but i was in every nook and cranny with compressed air and carb cleaner) without breaking the rack. replaced seat and needles and gaskets on all and the jets on ones that were damaged during cleaning/disassembly/etc

havent set the levles yet, but the bike couldnt run much better after that first start of the day. idles at 1050, great throttle response and whatnot. i do hear about the throttle shaft seals quite a bit and tbh i really dont know anything about them, so maybe i should look into that.

dont have compression numbers, but again, i assume (key word alert lol) its ok since it runs so well 95% of the time. i actually want to do a compression test just to get the numbers for future reference. im slightly confused on how to do that though, and i hate buying tools/mechanisms that get used so infrequently. i know that puts me in a bit of a disadvantage but thats just the truth.

the battery is about dead if the bike wont start maybe 4 or 5 times after trying, it dies pretty quickly (i dont know, maybe thats normal?) so i could def see some logic behind my charging system/battery being the culprit.

ive got a trickle charger and that helps but really, it will start right away if i hit it with a little fluid, so in order to not kill my battery i just find myself using that to ensure i dont drain the battery so far that i need to wait for it to recharge

 

I upgraded to an AGM battery, more cold cranks. Minnesota loves it's cold cranks. You sure you're getting good air too? Clean filter, open draw? The top three things in my brain from your description are Jets, Air, Battery, with the latter being the easiest to fix. If you get a start with the trickle on, a battery upgrade sounds promising.

 

Likely you have many problems. Don't try to troubleshoot at this point, just correct your problems one at a time. If it still doesn't start or run after that point, then start the troubleshooting. But in a word, "no," starting fluid is not causing your problems. Needing to use it a just a symptom of an out-of-tune bike that is not getting any better.

Your battery is not healthy, and it's likely a contributor to your non-start issue. The battery needs to have enough juice to spin the starter, and produce a spark. High impedance will prevent that.

When you get a new battery, test your charging system. You will kill a new battery in a hurry if your charging system isn't up to snuff and you go for a ride (personal experience)

Compression testing is a must for these old, not-so-well-maintained bikes. I've seen a very pretty, all stock, all original seca, with only 2 good cylinders, one iffy, and one dead. It idled no problem, but the owner complained that he couldn't get over 80. You can usually borrow one from Autozone, or buy one cheap from Harbor Freight. $30 can keep you from spending hundreds on a bike with a dead engine.

Float levels affect mixtures and are important. You can't skip that step.

Throttle shaft seals can cause a lean condition, usually off idle and above. Not likely a reason for your starting issue, but if they are in need of replacement, you'll soon have a running/power issue. Throttle response when the engine isn't under load doesn't mean that it's tuned properly.

 

Bikes addicted to Starting Fluid means Insufficient Cold Start Enrichment.

There are Metering Jets at the Bottom of the Fuel Bowl.
Fuel entering that Jet fills the Enrichment Well.
The Top-side Siphon Tube gets inserted into the well as the Bowl is fitted.
There are TINY holes on the Bottom and O-D of the Siphon Tube.
The Tube provides Fuel to the Enrichment Passages to the Plungers.

ALL must be Clean and free-flowing.

If these Jets are clogged inspect the Main Nozzles, too!

 

i would charge most of these things with probably being true... they semi-confirm the notion that i have known which is that i am going to have to go back in deeper than i wanted to. thanks for the reply!

 

funny, i did clean that area out but in hindsight, seeing how much more i should have done, this is probably also the case. when the carbs come off, i will be doing an even more thorough job for sure. thanks!

 

Bikes that change starting behavior based on cold/hot is often valves being out of adjustment.

But with the XJ's you can also suspect the battery and coils. If your battery isn't tip top and you crank for more than 7 or 8 revolutions you've toasted it past firing the coils. If your coils are slightly out of spec they will present this symptom even more so as they require more juice to collapse their magnetic field and spark well. ^

Dirty carbs is the only other likely culprit. But since it runs fine warm and starts warm it would likely only be enrichment that is problematic. ^

At least it runs like a champ the rest of the time-that's a plus.

 

***ding***ding***ding*** Bob, tell the man what he's won!

START WITH THE VALVE CLEARANCES. They were supposed to have been checked at 3000 miles, then every 5000 thereafter. If neglected, by 7K ~ 8K you're looking at a lot of tight valves, anything over 15K miles untouched is into the danger zone.

Then do a proper carb service, no excuses for half-heartedness. You don't have to break the rack for throttle shaft seals YET, it will have to happen at some point but there are many many things to be attended to before we get to that point. Or you could just bite the bullet and get it out of the way.

Borrow/rent a compression tester AFTER you get the valves in spec, so you know where you stand with the motor.

 

I will agree with the valve clearances being a likely contributor to a need for starter fluid. Last season I often would need starter fluid to get the bike going, but like you, the bike would run like a top once going.

Over this winter I adjusted my valves... And boy were they bad! 7 out of 8 out of spec, a few valves dangerously close! But along with an admittedly not %100 thorough carb cleaning, a new battery, and new spark plugs my bike now fires right up!

It's funny how my valvetrain actually makes noise now haha... (that's a good thing)

 

He said the valves were "newly in spec." I guess it would be prudent to ask for the clearances or inquire who exactly did them and how to make sure it was done right.

 

lol

i did them, and measured them and they are in spec ACCORDING to members of this site
clearance thread

 

Sorry missed that.

Carbs it is then; as well as a good electrical going-over.

 

cool, thanks