Help Me Get It Started, I Have Tried Everything I Know

YES IT WONT START!!!!!!!

Ok guys here it goes. Its another one of those sad stories where an XJ was badly neglected.... half heartedly attempted to repair.... and then given away.....in parts......for free though


The bike is an 1981 XJ650, I traded a guy a fish tank for it. Most of the wiring harness is intact, I think. The bike turns over, horn works, blinker turn on but wont flash, yada yada yada.......BUT IT WONT START!!!!!!!!! the bike came with a dropped and dented carb that was halfway assembled, missing many parts and beyond salvaging so I purchased one off ebay which is complete.

HERE IS WHERE IM AT
-I have cleaned the carbs(sort of according to "the church of clean" or at least pretty close)

-put in new plugs due to a weak spark and being sooty and old (had to switch the terminals from the old ones to the new ones because the were not the threaded type.)

-Plug #1 is wet after turning over but he rest are dry

-I tried using carb cleaner to start it to no avail

KNOWN PROBLEMS
-the exhaust studs are broken on two pipes and the headers a little loose

-The stock air box is gone(Im using pods and am aware of the difficulty to tune)

-The battery is weak and im using a battery charger on "jump" mode to try to start it.

-The starter button is shot so I am jumping the solenoid with a screwdriver(I know..its shameful)


so I hope you guys can help me out so I can keep working on it. I have big plans for it but I need to get it running before I go putting a ton of time into the other stuff
Thanks in advance!!!

 

Do a compression test first, it will indicate weather the engine is healthy or not. The first statement I see was " wet plugs" it tells me the carbs a overflowing. Clean and functioning carbs are necessary for the engine to start, carb cleaner does not make a good starting fluid.
Do the compression test and clean the carbs , wet setting the floats and we'll go from there
CHECK THE VALVE CLEARENCES BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER. Its a neglected bike they probably need adjustment.

 

Thanks Mlew that is exactly what I was looking for....A "to do" list.

The Carbs are very clean but not set. I guess a compression test and wet setting the carb is the next step. afterI have done this should I not be attempting to start the bike without checking the valve clearances?

and last but not least if anyone has threads bookmarked on these things I can cross off these things pretty quick.

 

Before you attempt to start it again, check to see if fuel has contaminated (flowed into) your crankcase oil. If the plugs are wet, then the carbs may have leaked into the cylinders then into the oil.

It's always nice to get just far enough to hear it run so that your are encouraged to continue repairing and replacing. Just don't do anything that will damage the engine.

Is there any danger of damage to the electrical system by using the "jump" function on a charger?

 

A ::: Pre-buy ::: Compression Test serves to help answer the question: "Should I buy this Bike of not?"

Service Departments very often REQUIRE the Tech to perform a Compression Test and write the results on the W/O to be shown to the Service Manager BEFORE any work is commenced on the machine.

Having your own Compression Tester is one of the most valuable tools you can own.

http://www.sears.com/actron-cp7827-comp ... 902171000P

 

Well, if you're just trying to see if it will run, Mlew just doesn't want you bending valve stems or throwing a piston into the neighbor's yard. It's worth knowing if they're close and worth looking at the upper half of the engine anyways and getting the clearance measurements for shims in the future.

Do you have spark to each cylinder? What's the resistance on the coils/plug wires? If it turns, the battery can't be that dead, but most of those chargers only jump at 50 amps or so. Might just need to get the car out...

 

Thanks for all the tips
got the compression test done
Compression is as follows:
Cyl #1= 130psi
Cyl #2= 135psi
Cyl #3= 130psi
Cyl #4= 140psi
I know they are sufficient but i hope they aren't to far off of one another...any insight?
How do I check for fuel in the case? And I still haven't found a good way to wet set the float height.......I'm generally pretty handy but as far as motors go im just shooting from the hip here. :/

 

You have good enough compression to run.
Hint: Try a snort of starting fluid in all four with the butterflies open. Then close the throttle and crank. If it fires up and revs high as a kite then quits, your problem is very likely fuel-related. After the little rev-fest, gently and quickly tap each header pipe with a wetted fingertip (careful; you could burn the snot out of yourself!) If you get a satisfactory HISS out of each one and they are hot, pretty good indication your ignition is sound (enough to start and run). Your compression readings also show your valves are close enough to start.
Weak starter brushes will draw excess amperage and cause difficult starting. See:

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=150.html

I don't recommend using any more than 10 amps on a battery for a boost. You can warp the thin plates in these things in a heartbeat. The electrical system in these bikes is weak, and an older battery probably won't do it. You'll need a new one anyway, why not do that now and eliminate it from the equation from the get-go?

 

Here's your link for the wet-set:

http://www.xj4ever.com/setting%20fuel%20levels.pdf

 

Here's how to force a start on your motor - - but I don't think it's ready yet. Use all appropriate caution.

* hold my beer
* use compressed air to blow-out the cylinders
* drop 10CC of oil in each CYL to wet the rings and add compression.
* have a charged battery
* get a hose or fire ext.
* spray 1 second into a rag - of starting fluid, drop in airbox
* bump-start downhill in 2nd gear using friends to push. (don't even try the starter, choke, throttle)

Run the motor for less than a minute, and get back to fixing all of it's issues.

 

Okay I feel as though Im getting the jist of it. Thanks for the links captainkirk, that wet setting info is incredibly detailed and just what i need(visuals are the best).

I did bite the bullet and purchase a battery from ballistic performance.its an 8cell 12v sealed battery(incredibly small battery by they way)but I killed it while trying to start the bike so i switched to the old dead battery and hooked the charger/jumper to it. But I will refrain though as advised

I do have a couple of questions though.....

1) I was under the understanding that the system of "brushes" you speak of belonged to the generator not the starter. IF this is true then why would worn generator brushes keep the bike from starting? It seems to me that i wouldn't charge but it should start just fine...right?

2) where does the issue of timing the ignition come into play? is this issue(should there be one)resolved by synchronization of the carbs?

3)since you have provided such amazing info thus far, you sort of have me spoiled. can you send me a link detailing that homemade carb sync tool(manometer) I have a feeling even after wet setting im going to need to tackle that as well.

 

While this sounds like fun.....I think your right....im not ready for that

 

Tomorrow after work Im gonna hit Home Depot and fab up some sort of stand for the carbs like in the tutorial... Ill see if I can figure out how to post pics as well.

 

This is the part you were s'posed to read....

"I also have an XJ550 and starting was one of my headaches. Did a carb resync all with homemade tools. Runs sweet but starting was still a problem.

My cure came in the form of new starter brushes. If they get too worn then they draw too much power and don't leave enough for the electrical system to provide a decent spark.

This is usually evident if the bike fires as you are taking your finger off the starter button."

These are the STARTER brushes...which are stealing current from your battery better needed at the coils and spark plugs during start-up rather than arcing across your commutator!

Ignition timing is a set it/forget it issue. If it's statically set correctly, no further adjustment is required.

I don't have a link to that one that works. You could try simply typing in carb sync manometer to the search function bar and you pull up a bazillion threads....bound to be in there someplace!
Personally, I have a set of Motion Pro mercury gauges as well as the newer, 'eco-friendly' Sync Pro tool...both work well, but mercury is 'unobtanium' these days and so are the mercury gauges. I know it's scary dropping a Benjamin on a set of synch gauges, but they work well and should last a lifetime.....I highly recommend wasting your valuable time trying to get a hopeless wreck running than trying to cobble a set of homemade gauges together....but that's just me, maybe... :lol:

 

Also of interest: Is yours a YICS motor? (evidenced by the pickup coil/oil pumps covers that say "YICS on them...see photo)

IMAG0375 by buellosaurusrex, on Flickr

If so, you will need a YICS blocking tool to sync the carbs.
I made a dandy one, and can give you a rundown on that, if needed.

 

Ok so the starter and the generator both have brushes.....right? I read that, I just wasnt sure because I knew about generator brushes, just not starter brushes. Imay buy or borrow a set if I can. If not Ill guess Ill just have to read.....

 

no mine is not YICS....thank god, I dont need anything else complicating this:lol: But good looking out!

 

We'll get ya going. PM me if you feel the need.

 

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic ... meter.html

 

How's your brakes?

 

Brakes seem good, it hasn't ran since before I got it but while pushing it around I can lock up the front and rear and stops. Ill need to wait and see util after I'm riding to be able to gauge it better.

 

Just checking.... make damn sure she stops before you try to make her go.

The dumbass that sold me my parts bike tried to show me that the bike could be ridden... without front brakes.... he's all like well the rear one works fine.... hit my garage wall at a couple mph because you can't use the rear brake real well when your right foot is on the ground....

 

I've built the carb tuning rack and an auxiliary fuel setup but have not had a chance to use it yet. Hopefully this weekend.
Here is a before and after shot of where I found it and where it sits now.

 

Here is the IV fuel setup




An here is the carb rack

 

I like your rack!
Love those IV set ups lol
We actually have one of the hospital ones at the shop!
Sync tool on one side, gas can on the other. GREAT tool. It wheels around the shop too so we can test and sync anywhere

 

Thanks man the IV setup is made from an old Lucas oil bottle, a generic fuel shutoff, and a small roll of 1/4" fuel line. It was about 12$ at discount lol. The rack idea I stole from the carb tutorial posted earlier. Seems to work well one perfectly level......achieved by the rubber clamp boots and zip ties for fine leveling adjustment. Fingers crossed for this weekend. Only carb one had a wet plug, and the one in the picture that is hooked to the clear tube looks close(haven't measured yet.)

 

Ok guys update! I wet set all the float heights individually. After a few cranking sessions, still nothing. So now what?

 

Back to basics. To run, you need compression, (which you have), fuel, (which we don't know about), and ignition, (which you haven't mentioned).
With the spark plugs out, and laying on the cylinder head, do you see sparking at the plug gaps when you use the starter? Are the plug wires on the correct plugs? On an XJ 1100, the outer two plugs get fired by the left coil, and the center two plugs get fired by the right coil.
If all plugs get spark, then it is more than likely fuel related. It could be ignition timing, but if you haven't been inside the left hand engine cover, we will assume that the timing is still good. Although the previous owner could have messed that up :roll: .
Check the spark, and we'll go from there.
CZ

p.s. Get a car battery, disconnect the positive bike battery wire, hook a big gauge jumper set to the car battery, negative to bare metal on the bike frame, positive to the starter solenoid terminal that went to the + on the battery, and you will be able to do a lot of testing without the charger hassle.

 

Since the XJ's have a notoriously weak ignition system, I'm gonna go with that......
Bad brushes in the starter can seriously draw from available starting voltage and cause a parasitic amperage draw. Try this; give a little bit of enrichener ("choke") and with a charger hooked to your battery, simply 'tap' the starter (as opposed to holding it down and cranking for dear life) and see if it catches. No? Could be fuel related. Yes? Very likely a high resistance (fuse block, wiring, etc) starter, or ignition problem

 

Here is a quick shot of my fuel levels. Using a caliper I measured 3mm down from the edge of the carb body just like the manual says to, Minding the meniscus. I did this for each carb individually. they all read right in the ball bark when I finished.


Ok I had the plugs out and on the cylinder head and I had great spark, it that was before I changed the plugs. I'll do that again. What habit gapping? Should I have to do that to new plugs?

The current wires there have great "memory" so it would be hard to screw them up. I haven't messes with timing.

The only thing I can think would be out of sorts is that when I bought new plugs they came with the rounded terminals on top, my old plugs had the "threaded" tops. The guy at discount said I could just unscrew the tops off the plugs and replace them with the tops off of my old ones, so I did.....any issues with that?

New starter brushes are something I may do even though I don't know that's the problem....can't hurt right?

Something else that has been stuck in the back of my head is that my starter button doesn't work and I am still jumping the bike with a screwdriver across the solenoid. My brain keeps thinking that whatever is causing me to have to do that is keeping my bike from starting. I would like to fix it so I don't have sparks flying every time I'm trying to start it. How should I start chasing down this issue?

A far as fuel issues I did a pretty good cleaning of the carb and I am using the same auxiliary fuel set up to try and start as I did with the wet set. I did not break down the rack but I took out and meticulously cleaned everything I could without breaking the rack.

I havent messes with any air/fuel mixture adjustments because Im not sure where they are. Could they be slammed shut?

 

If you didn't take out our pilot screws when you cleaned your carbs, your carbs aren't clean

Gotta take those out and spray the @#$% outta them passages to make sure they're open from the bowl all the way to the 3 little holes in the throat by the butterfly.

 

O let's talk about these pilot screws......where the heck are they?

Here is a shot of th rebuild kits i used. what are those discs and o-rings for?
I skipped replacing them because I didn't see them anywhere

 

Pilot screws, mixture screws, whatever, here they are:



Sometimes every of them is still covered by a brass cap that you should drill and removed with an easy-out.

 

Thanks for the very descriptive picture. Ill get those out and cleaned ASAP. Would this keep the bike from starting.

 

Here is an example of a spare rack I have with brass caps hiding the mixture screws:

 

The little o-rings are for replacing the old ones on the pilot screws, and the discs are for replacing ( ) the caps that you need to remove in order to get to the pilot screws.

 

Throw the Discs away.

Plug the Pilot Screw Holes with Erasers taken from Brand New #2 Pencils.
Place the Rubber Eraser in the Hole.
Slice excess with Razor Blade.
Smooch some RTV on the top to Seal and prevent escape.

Getting the Erasers out is a piece-o-cake.

 

Why would you want to block access to the p/m screws ?

 

I believe they were set from factory and designed not to be tampered with, but as these bikes get older they need adjustment.

Thanks guys I'm digging the eraser trick. And ill get those out ASAP. If this doesn't do the trick I'm thinking coils/plug wires and caps, and starter/generator brushes are the next thing on the list.

 

After getting the Pilot Screws adjusted; it's a good idea to seal the orifice to keep out the elements to prevent possible seizing.

Here's the story concerning why the Anti-tamper Plugs NEED to be removed and the Air Screws re-adjusted for satisfactory Fine Tuning:

When the Bikes were new, the Factory supplied the Dealerships with Exhaust Gas Analyzers. (EGA) Initially, the Bikes were set-up for EGA with the YICS Tool in place.

Once the EGA Machines started breaking down and the Dealership was required to pay for their repairs and calibrations; the EGA Machine was unplugged, its leads wrapped around the Machine and pushed over into a corner where they collected dust.

The Tech's resorted to tuning-up YICS Bikes "By Ear".

Idles and off-idles wer the main concern. Keeping the Bikes on-the-road was paramount.
There became a "Standard Operating Procedure" for setting the Pilot Mixtures on Bikes which came-in for Warranty Service with the Factory Anti-tamper Plugs still in place.

Remove the Plugs and add just a little less than a quarter-turn to Factory Settings.

This ballpark adjustment generally kept both the owner and the dealer happy because the bike would run pretty good and everybody was happy.

Today you would be hard pressed to find a working EGA in any Yamaha Dealership.
Our Bikes are considered a nusance to the Dealer and a growing number of Dealerships are coming-up with some excuse to turn you away when you show-up looking for any tune-up related servicing.

They will be delighted to sell you a battery, a tire or attempt to order you some parts for the bike; but once you say you want Carbs Cleaned or a Major Tune-Up done, the excuses start to fly.

Everything from flat-out saying they don't work on those bikes any more to we are booked-up in Service; you'll have to try to see if you can get your Bike in somewhere else.

Those that DO work on the old XJ-Bikes make you pay an hourly rate.
They do what they have to do to get the bike "Out-the-door"!

So, instead of paying through the nose, we have been forced to learn how to service our bikes ... ourselves!

Now, we have the Colortune Plug and devices for Synchronizing Carbs that don't require Mercury. (I have Mercury Sticks ... I need Mercury)

We have the ability (in most cases) to tune these bikes as we please.
Arizona's emission requirement might be strong enough to reject the vast majority of self-tuned bikes. I'd venture to say that the vast majority of Forum Members Bikes are too RICH for the Arizona requirement.

So, the majority of us ... not under sanction of an Emission Requirement, tune on the RICH Side and enjoy riding a bike that wont stall-out despite having it tuned in a manner that would not satisfy the Environmental Protection Agency's Standard for when they were new! (California. Port of entry).

After the fiasco of the Yamaha-supplied, EGA Testing Machines blew-over; Dealerships all but abandoned the sniffer. They usually were "Present" at the Dealerships for some time. Eventually most (if not all) became coat-racks, bulletin boards or a skeleton in the corner. Today, I'd say anyone who has one would let you haul it out for them.

Most Bikes had EGA Test Bungs.
If yours aren't seized; consider yourself lucky!

Tuning pretty-much got handed-over to the Tech with your W/O.
The era of Customer Satisfaction to put to an end the come-backs of more tuning evolved.

There seemed to be a consensus that if the Pilot Air Screws (Mixture screw)
were set to whatever setting kept the Customer from needing to come back for a lost time tweak be used.

This got determined by Off-idle response, ... (most cases).

This Preset, intended to make people smile and the Bike from being brought-in, ... usually did the trick.

"Between 2.75 -and- 3.0 Turns OUT.
(Closer to 3.0 splitting the distance between (a) & (b).

Now, ColorTuning is available.
You can SEE the Mixture's COLOR change.
As the Air Screw is brought OUT; the BURN becomes BLUE.
BLUE is the ideal setting for IDLE.

Most Bikes will require having the Air Screw brought OUT to the BLUE, ... and then further Enriched to where the BLUE fade-out do to the Mixture becoming more Rich.

The added Richness ::: "Supplemental Richness" ::: is necessary to SUSTAIN Combustion(s) at the instant the Plant is transitioned from IDLE to OFF-IDLE.
When correctly adjusted:
There is NO Hesitation awaiting the MAIN JET Supplied Fuel to arrive.
There is NO Bogging-out because the Mixture is TOO RICH during the Transition.

 

I agree with all advise that's been shared. Given that you have "strong spark" and assuming your cam chain is still intact, spraying some starting fluid into the carbs should cause the bike to start and idle at a high RPM for a second or two. If this happens you know that (primarily) you are dealing with a fuel delivery issue. The petcocks on these bikes are vacuum-enabled when running in RES or ON position. If you are trying to start the bike with the petcock in the ON position I would encourage your to try it in the PRI (prime) position as this does not rely on vacuum for fuel delivery (give the bowls a few second to fill first).

Also - another obvious thing but worth throwing out there ... make sure the brass vacuum nipples extending from the rubber intake boots are all covered.

 

Wow.......this is quickly becoming a great starting place to go for first timers. Awesome info here thanks again.as soon as I an ditch all this real work I have I can get back to work on the troubleshooting. I'm leaning more towards ignition being my issue, but since I e not messed with the mixture screws..could be fuel, but I have sprayed starter fluid in carbs to no avail.

 

If you are running an Inline Fuel Filter, ... remove it and Blow through it.

There are some aftermarket, small, clear-vinyl, paper-element "See-through-type" filters that are FRAM "Knock-off's" that use a paper filter which become non-porus.

If you struggle blowing through it; crap-can it and get a good one.

 

Thanks Rick but no filter on the aux fuel setup. I did happen to be in my shed or something else tonight and I took a look at the mixture screws. They are all exposed and were almost all the way out. I brought them all in to the max just to be sure they move freely, a well, of course as things go the #4 was stuck.....won't go in or out. It appears to be out quite a few turns as the others were. I sprayed in down with some PB blaster and I'm gonna let it soak in hood for a few days. Any suggestions if that doesn't work? I do have a parts carb with all 4 screws as well, "easy out" it maybe?

 

EZ-Out?
50-50.
Works or don't.

Works.
Take everything out.
Chase the Hole with an M6.05 :: BOTTOM :: Tap.
Get a New Air Screw.
Don't.
Put-out an A-P-B for a #4 Carb.

Investigate.
Have a Machine Shop "Burn" it out.
Call a Regional "Vo-Tech School" and ask the Machine Shop Dept. Head if he'd like to give his best students a shot at a Real World dilemma.

 

Haha I have a spare rack I could get a #4 from if need be but I think this will be fine. I'm gonna try to EZ out it first, I doubt a brass screw is going to break an EZ out as they are hardened steel. If that doesn't work on to the machine work. Ill get the spare screw From my spare rack

 

Welp I just got back from the keys to find that the auxiliary fuel setup I had hanging is completely drained saves a few inches left in the line. No has on the floor so where is it, I'm hoping your not going to tell me in my case.....te shut off valve was in the off position so it apparently doesn't work so well.....

 

Hey while I'm figuring out the fuel issues......does anyone see a problem with dyna coils from chacal and some old school looking cloth covered spark plug wire from lowbrow?

 

Check your oil..... 8O